Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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nogz

Member
Yes and no. They didn't achieve their original goal of gaining the Hammerfell territory they wanted. The Emperor was forced to release Hammerfell from the Empire to keep in line with the WGC. And this is of course a form of a win for the Dominion and a lose for the Empire, since it breaks up the Empire and overall weakens them. But since they weren't that successful militarily, their biggest win was the signing of the WGC. The Hammerfell part aside, the WGC was basically what they wanted in the first place anyway, and they got it. Losing or even "losing" to the Redguards doesn't really benefits them. Apart from the Empire being completely overrun by the Dominion forces, their best outcome after their defeat in Cyrodiil would have been for Hammerfell to roll over and let them have the territory they wanted. Which obviously didn't happen. Hammerfell may be out but they are a tough nut to crack, even if we assume the Dominion will take control of Cyrodiil in the next war I'm willing to bet the elves will think twice before going to Hammerfell again.

As for Ulfric and his cause, it's not just the "I". Most of Skyrim would want the Thalmor removed from the province and the Talos ban lifted. There are a lot more people than just him, all saying "I want this too". Otherwise there wouldn't even be a Civil War since he wouldn't have had any support obviously. He would much rather get what he wants by peaceful means if it were possible though:

Galmar: "But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."


I don't see how you can get that Ulfric is blood-thirsty. He would much rather have Balgruuf join him and not have bloodshed for Whiterun:

Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."

Also, keep in mind that Ulfric refers to Balgruuf as "a true nord" and holds him more or less in high regard. Even after both of them being at odds with each other for like forever. He would still rather not have bloodshed for the city. On the other hand Balgruuf is exposed as a complete child and a hypocrite since he sides with the Empire even though he still worships Talos. He uses petty insults towards Ulfric if you side with the Empire after defending Whiterun and if you take the city with the Stormcloaks, against Vignar and the player.. He'd also be quite happy if the conflict ends with "Ulfric Stormcloak's head on a pike." While Ulfric doesn't even want to kill him..

Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."
Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Well, given the first demands of the Dominion (the WGC basically) I was thinking more of their original plan for the Empire to give them the Hammerfell territory they wanted. I'm assuming that's why they attacked both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell at the same time.

They knew the Empire wouldn't give them territory straight away, why would they want to try take Hammerfell or at least damage it enough to cripple the southern areas? The same reason they took Valenwood, limit the ability for a counter attack.

Attacking Cyrodiil at the same time was to distract the Empire, they were probably hoping that the Legion would relocate to better protect the Emperor if they were pushed out of Hammerfell. General Decianus proved stubborn and managed to halt their advance outside of Skaven.

Without thinking too hard or long about it I'm gonna guess they consider this territory important and/or of high value, most probably for something having to do with plans about the next or the 'real' war against the Empire, when the Empire ceases to exist.

Cape of the Blue Divide would have likely been the reason to try occupy or cripple the territory of the southern half. That is the best location for a naval staging ground to attack Dominion waters, where the West Imperial Navy probably had their shipyards and were docked.

Now if I was the Dominion, I'd want to occupy that location or at least devastate the entire area. Just burn it to the ground, if you couldn't use it, no one can.

The Aldmeri Dominion are cunning, everything they've done so far is strategically sound (save the full invasion of Cyrodiil). Taking Valenwood gave them allies, soldiers and resources. Most importantly it allowed them a staging ground into mainland Tamriel and robbed the Empire of the ability to conduct an invasion of Summerset Isle with their Legions.

Southern Hammerfell is the next target, that is targeting naval control of the waters. Hitting another staging ground of their enemy, instead of a land staging ground this is the Imperial Navy's strategic location.

That plan obviously changed when they thought they could finish off the Empire right away.

Thinking on it, I wouldn't exactly say their plans completely changed. More likely they advanced their plans, finishing off the Empire was a later plan.

But then they got a black eye in Cyrodiil. Then they switched to at least keeping their Hammerfell gains.

Yes, their plans for Cyrodiil fell apart. They probably switched back to occupying or crippling the south.

And then got another black eye.

Depends how we look at it, even though they did not expand landmass. They crippled the best naval staging grounds. Military wise they managed to have a "victory" more or less in crippling their target, politically they didn't get much.

Soldiers lost, resource expenses. Acceptable losses to the Dominion most likely, they still managed to cause a rift between Hammerfell and the Empire + devastate a strategic location.

In terms of their goals, at least prior to the war, they got half of what they wanted since they got most of the WGC. Not bad, but obviously not the best possible outcome for them.

White-Gold Concordat is small time victory, they're only gaining from the Civil War and should the Stormcloaks or Legion win that war, both sides are back to focusing on them and harming their presence. Stormcloaks due to obvious reasons, and Legion due to becoming aware of the Thalmor's game.

Ok, I agree the Dominion will be defeated when you crush them completely. But the same goes for the Empire as well. And obviously neither happened this time around. We'll see in round 2.

They'll wish they could have destroyed the Empire, no doubt. Very rarely do you get a second chance to do so.

As for Hammerfell, as I said before, I consider the outcome a win for Hammerfell because they didn't gave up the territory the Dominion wanted to have. You can argue that it's destroyed all the same. And it's somewhat of a fair point but it's still not what even the Dominion probably would want if we assume they want that land for a reason. For example if they want the land so they can have easier supply routes for the next war, the land being destroyed doesn't benefits them either.

They're not supply routes, it is the Cape of the Blue Divide would be the reason to try occupy or cripple the area. Yes we can argue the Redguards didn't lose their lands, but they still weren't able to save the devastated areas. We could say that both the Dominion and Redguards "won" in a limited sense, Redguards didn't lose lands at great cost. Dominion didn't occupy the lands, but managed to devastate strategic naval staging grounds.

Yeah, it was strange them not mentioning the Redguards. Maybe the devs didn't want to reveal that something more is happening there that we know? If we go back to the Redguard woman quest in Whiterun there is an interesting line that you mentioned before about how the main guy searching for her says something about how "the resistance against the Dominion is still alive and well" or something. Which is somewhat of a strange line and raises more than a few eyebrows for sure.

Yes, the resistance is something of an eyebrow raiser. Another one is that both are saying the other is a Thalmor sympathizer/worked with the Thalmor. Could mean the Thalmor are still active in Hammerfell, although likely indirectly such as how they use the Imperials and Stormcloaks in the civil war etc.

Given the Hammerfell withdrawal, the fact that the Dominion even returned to the table and not attack Cyrodiill again, I'm more inclined to believe they are more or less of equal strength again.

I think the Dominion would be wary of attacking Cyrodiil that soon. They needed to rebuild also, but it would be like making the same mistake over again. They've learned from the failed first invasion.

I don't think their losses are moot, maybe if Hammerfell and the Emperor fully capitulated and gave total control which they didn't. But losses are still losses and that will still play part in the next conflict.

In the next war they'll still have veterans from the first war, whereas mankind's veterans are entering retirement.


Ok, assuming that's true which I have not much doubt that it isn't, they wouldn't create this lore just for the lulz of it... The obvious logical question is, what the hell happened to the guy? He was reckless and a bad ass enough to lead the charge of the city but then pulls out the big thinking guy routine, considering all the options and seeing the big picture that the Empire has a better chance the next time around? That's a complete 180 of a character that charges with a katana, killing people left and right.. I don't know, maybe it makes sense. I'm sticking with the battle being so brutal it had an effect on his soul/spirit.

I see it as picking your battles. I don't see him as reckless, rather he was very pragmatic and a brilliant strategist. He was smart enough to fool the Dominion twice, first by abandoning the city which they would have never suspected and then again by fooling them into thinking he was about to surrender only to suddenly appear with the combined might of the Empire to launch a counter attack.

Titus II obviously wasn't going to risk destruction when the best he'll get is Talos worship allowed. It was a sacrifice, not the most favorable sacrifice but one that allowed the Empire to rebuild and recover for the most part.

Ok, but all of that would just mean what I said before. After the second battle for the capitol city the forces were more or less leveled. Actually doesn't it mean that the Empire's forces were outnumbering the Dominion's? After all the Legions in Cyrodiil didn't return to Hammerfell. They were busy with the chaos in Cyrodiil. Returning would be a foolish move obviously, but isn't the fact that the next 5 years Hammerfell stands firm with only the remnants of the Empire's forces in Hammerfell and the Redguard forces mean that the Dominion's army and capabilities aren't that big or bigger than the Empire's?

No, it wouldn't make them bigger. The Legion had good Generals. When the Thalmor arrived with their demands, Titus' Generals warned him about the Empire's military weakness. They obviously didn't have an optimal force in regards to the Empire's size and the needs for an effective defense.

The Redguards fighting an effective resistance doesn't mean the Dominion's forces or capabilities were less than the Empire. It is just what the Redguards are very skilled at, they know their land, which is quite harsh. Be like the Dominion trying to occupy Skyrim, much of it is harsh and cold as fl*ff and crazy Nords keep attacking you from the hills, some conventional battles others are ambushes and war of attrition.

They might have been able to succeed had they not wasted a lot on attacking the Empire. The Empire was hit very hard in the first five years, whereas the Redguards weren't taking so much of the direct fighting.

Things might have been different if the Redguards were united before the war, were able to pull their share in the initial years of the Great War.

And the best one:

"I oppose tyrany. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I am a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That is a fact, a fact I'm proud of. There is no shame in that. Read your history."

"Comes the end of the day, Imperials and Stormcloaks ain't much different. Both sides want to tell you how you should live your life. Guess I'd rather hear it from a real Nord than some Emperor down south." - Eorlund Gray-Mane.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Minor detail question - what does 'devastation of southern Hammerfell' mean exactly? Now of course buildings would be destroyed, but considering how the elves treated civilians during the sack of the Imperial City wouldn't that be a possibility for Hammerfell as well (if there were any civilians left, that is)? Besides, southern Hammerfell too has rather arid climate, doing stuff like poisoning wells would also be a way to do lasting damage... or did they "just" destroy the infrastructure as to not provoke the Redguards?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Minor detail question - what does 'devastation of southern Hammerfell' mean exactly? Now of course buildings would be destroyed, but considering how the elves treated civilians during the sack of the Imperial City wouldn't that be a possibility for Hammerfell as well (if there were any civilians left, that is)? Besides, southern Hammerfell too has rather arid climate, doing stuff like poisoning wells would also be a way to do lasting damage... or did they "just" destroy the infrastructure as to not provoke the Redguards?


Probably a mix of various things. I guess it would be things like the destruction of cities, food stores and probably even looting sources of wealth like vaults of gold, silver, precious gems. Docks and ships burnt. Displacement of civilian populations, it could probably include the sabotage of wells, crops, military installations and collapsing of mines perhaps.

Probably anything that would generally screw over an area econmically, including large losses of life.

Say if Falkreath in Skyrim was destroyed or crippled. That would devastate parts of the province as they are the major source of lumber between the Holds. Not to mention as areas suffer from loss of guards or government authority, criminal elements pop up and things get even harder. So adding onto your already dire situation, you're losing control over certain routes, people become more desperate and food is stolen, people get killed over supplies etc.

Like certain parts of Skyrim where certain forts have had Stormcloaks/Imperials killed by bandits/wizards and they now control strategic locations which hinder merchants, supplies, caravans of workers/tradesmen and even the movement of soldiers to certain areas.

In a fantasy medieval realm, when something is devastated it tends to be over the top devastated if you know what I mean. Cause dangerous creatures, evil magics, warlords, curses, disease. The list goes on.

It is life or death in Tamriel on a good day, could face the most horrible painful demise possible merely doing mundane tasks.

"Hey ma, Thorek is alive from getting the mail... Oh, he got gutted by a goblin near the gate. Never mind."
 
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Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
In a fantasy medieval realm, when something is devastated it tends to be over the top devastated if you know what I mean. Cause dangerous creatures, evil magics, warlords, curses, disease. The list goes on.

Well, considering that a powerful Aldmeri battlemage scout destroys entire villages by himself in Cyrodiil - I guess there were plenty of massacres in Hammerfell too. Damn, war is dirty.
 

Vauldis

Member
Just throwing in my 2p here.

From a logical perspective imperials are the better faction in my opinion because , despite begrudgingly being essentially owned by the elves, they have got sht done over the years and to a degree kept the peace....ya know, sometimes, like, for a few weeks before the next squabble starts :V

However I like to play skyrim in my characters mentality so allow me to explain it in his point of view.
" This war is an opportunity to ruin the the empire. And that's an amusing thought to me. Oh and the infinite resurrectable corpses!
-Vauldis the argonian, 4E *generic date*
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Well, considering that a powerful Aldmeri battlemage scout destroys entire villages by himself in Cyrodiil - I guess there were plenty of massacres in Hammerfell too. Damn, war is dirty.

War is often dirty in Tamriel. Empire itself has done a few massacres of innocent men, women and children in war.
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
Been gone for a while... putting out fires here and there.

The Thalmor respect neither faction, you can save whoever you want, it will all just burn down anyways. A free Skyrim under the right person would be a good thing... get rid of this overbearing Empire. I so wanted to Support Ulfric.

Alas, his leadership is so out of touch anyone in his Skyrim would be begging to leave for the Empire or Dominion.

Empire is the only real choice. Ulfric kinda ruined it for everyone... it's like I told someone else, mmm not on here... a very long time ago... "taking other people's Freedoms away in the name of Freedom is not logical." Some of the Stormcloaks - including this person & friends - are so radical they can't see it AND then there's rest of them who love the cause yet hate the fact their leader really has nothing but bad in store for everyone else after he burns through the country.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Can't believe I'm still finding new details.

You're the one who always told me that swinging an ax was the only thing I've ever been good at so what do you expect me to do? The Stormcloaks pay dung for soldiering and I'm not going to fight for those mud-sucking Imperials. I've got a good racket picking the traders off the road here and I couldn't give a damn what you think about it.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rigels-letter

Looks like as proud as Stormcloaks might be, they cannot support their families in the slightest even if they survive the battles.
 

nogz

Member
Well, you gotta take into account that the Stormcloaks control only half the country and don't have the resources of the Empire (then again the Empire isn't at their strongest either).

The murder mystery quest in Windhelm was pretty much put there to show that the resources of the rebels are spread thin. You can also take into account that probably "pay dung" means she is a kinda of person that isn't satisfied with honest work and normal/average pay, probably why she robs people...
 

Ancano

High Justiciar
So, a friend critique'd my last post the other day and think I should clarify something...

Imperials can be radicals also... the loyalists or possibly nationalist element. And really, I never chose either... except Thalmor... def see where they're coming from... and I can see where everyone is coming from but the Thalmor have had it hard and Empire did them wrong back in the day. Still, as far as Skyrim is concerned, it's just what did it for me was Whiterun and Jarl B... well Jarl B doesn't even matter just Whiterun.

You have Ulfric saying one thing about peace and brotherhood... and then setting up a forward ops post in Whiterun. I mean, that's not very friendly... obviously he intended on taking Whiterun by force from the very beginning and then you have the Empire who likes, well you should accept our help but we're not going to force ourselves on you.

I mean, that's really it for me as for as why I went Empire. The difference is uncanny and I think Ulfric could have had his way but he just... I dunno. He went too far and made way too many enemies. You know, that's why. There's still something good about the Empire if they're at least trying to give their citizens a choice... and respecting the independence of even something like Whiterun, now a lone city-state.

Just don't think the Empire needs to rule over the Thalmor... you know... that's not right. But there's also still something good about the Empire too... it's not that they're being mismanaged just need a leader who can make the right decisions for everyone's sake. If TMII had been a better negotiator, Thalmor wouldn't even be in the Empire and both Dominion and Empire would have been better off.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Well, you gotta take into account that the Stormcloaks control only half the country and don't have the resources of the Empire (then again the Empire isn't at their strongest either).

The murder mystery quest in Windhelm was pretty much put there to show that the resources of the rebels are spread thin. You can also take into account that probably "pay dung" means she is a kinda of person that isn't satisfied with honest work and normal/average pay, probably why she robs people...

Then why the hell are they running around claiming to be better than the Empire when they can barely manage to feed their soldiers?!
 

Vauldis

Member
Ugh all this war over religion and territory. Why can't we all just unite under the banner of our lord and saviour molag bal? You only need to give him your soul, your land and your disobedient children to him.

In all (sort of) seriousness , all this war is doing is weakening tamerial. If a daedric lord gets into nirn (through a cult or some newbie conjurer being tricked maybe?) He's gonna have a field day with all these divided factions and war. And naturally a few of us would assist him in his efforts...
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Well, you gotta take into account that the Stormcloaks control only half the country and don't have the resources of the Empire (then again the Empire isn't at their strongest either).

The murder mystery quest in Windhelm was pretty much put there to show that the resources of the rebels are spread thin. You can also take into account that probably "pay dung" means she is a kinda of person that isn't satisfied with honest work and normal/average pay, probably why she robs people...

Then why the hell are they running around claiming to be better than the Empire when they can barely manage to feed their soldiers?!

The Stormcloaks can't control all of Skyrim effectively. The rebels are spread thin now, as the war goes on they lose more manpower and in taking over new Holds they weaken their current Holds further to maintain the new Holds. The original Hold Guards from the East are now at Holds in the West.

If they can't pay too well for their men, doubt they could afford mercenaries. Then again they do state they don't want mercenaries fighting for them. Their ideology works against them.

As Balgruuf states: "But mark my words, old man, in the days to come, Ulfric will spread his rebellion thin. And what then?"
 
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Ancano

High Justiciar
Jarl Baalstein has ALOT of clout and support in Whiterun from all the years of good management and prosperity he's brought to that hold. It would not take much to topple the tool Ulfric put in charge in B's place, esp once the cracks start forming and the selective oppression factor kicks in under Ulfric's leadership. People will want to start rebelling regardless of whatever Ulfric has left after the war.

Whiterun losing it's previous autonomy, being forcibly occupied by Stormcloaks will all but guarantee support for any insurrection Jarl B wants to start, esp with the Grey Manes NOT helping to defend the city/hold from an invading force, they will be seen in a bad light. All that needs happen is Ulfric flop here or there and then push people hard enough and people in places like Whiterun, Solitude and even Riften will start taking matters into their own hands because they all grew up on an Imperial-like culture which is now being crushed and denied. Just give it a little time, sometimes people don't know who they are until their freedom is taken away.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
If they can't pay too well for their men, doubt they could afford mercenaries. Then again they do state they don't want mercenaries fighting for them. Their ideology works against them.

As Balgruuf states: "But mark my words, old man, in the days to come, Ulfric will spread his rebellion thin. And what then?"

Stormcloak sympathizers:
tumblr_maeyzxss7P1qg0u4go1_500.png
 

LonelyGoddess

New Member
In my eyes the Stormcloaks and the Imperials are both a-holes, it's just that the Stormcloaks are racist a-holes, so for me it depends on what kind of race I'm playing and personality or back story I've given my character

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH Fierce using Tapatalk
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Can't believe I'm still finding new details.

You're the one who always told me that swinging an ax was the only thing I've ever been good at so what do you expect me to do? The Stormcloaks pay dung for soldiering and I'm not going to fight for those mud-sucking Imperials. I've got a good racket picking the traders off the road here and I couldn't give a damn what you think about it.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rigels-letter

Looks like as proud as Stormcloaks might be, they cannot support their families in the slightest even if they survive the battles.

The Stormcloaks are a growing militia that is less than 20 years old (I think). It was just recently that they've sky rocked in popularity due to the assassination of High King Torygg. They do not have the luxury of having significant wealth like the Empire has. If anyone thinks that becoming a Stormcloak solider will bring them significant wealth is a complete idiot, and do not deserve to be called a Stormcloak. They're better off joining the Imperials.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1b22

The Stormcloaks only want dedicated people.
 
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