Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
No problem.
Yeah Ulfric is partially to blame, make no mistake. However, if Windhelm is at war, the Dark Elves should be helping. At least in some way.
In the Empire, this is ironically enough not a problem at all, everyone is helping the cause.
The Stormcloaks are right though to be frustrated at how some of the non-Nord citizens are shunning their cause.
I understand it's a bad situation and the administration in Windhelm is not that great but why should Ulfric spend resources he doesn't have on 'citizens' who refuse Civil Service?
Think about that. What is the penalty on average in countries who citizens (esp immigrants) refuse Civil Service?
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Dude you so much remind me of Mannimarco, which is awesome. You should totally change your avatar to Mannimarco where he's sitting in the throne room smiling. That would be awesome! Hah
This one would work but it's up to you
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LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Another thing I wanted to share, the Nords in Skyrim are *outraged*. The Stormcloaks are the largest rebel faction, comprised of different united interests, however there are smaller rebellions taking place as well.
It's a meat grinder and everyone is just so angry about things which have just been building over time.
For these people, they don't have the luxury to use reason or rationality... it's about the heart.
It's gone beyond simple anger over politics, it's Rage.
This is what happens when people get pushed to the limit and people stop listening and start turning the Devil lose on them.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Does not the food they farm go into feeding the citizens of Windhelm and supplying food for Ulfric's army? Does not the coin provided from taxes, and the success they bring to Nord businesses fund more weapons and armors?
The Dunmer are doing everything short of picking up a sword and dying in a ditch for a Nord focused cause. If you've been treated like second class citizens, treated like dirt and lesser beings by the Nords of Windhelm. Why would they be motivated to pick up a Stormcloak banner and go "Which way, boss?"
They do more than most in Windhelm, and I find it hard to believe they're given a hard time only because they're not fighting for the Stormcloaks. Many in Windhelm aren't fighting for the Stormcloaks, they're not picking up weapons. Yet they're treated more kindly.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That fancy jewelry aids me in the craft of necromancy
Besides being a Mage, which isn't exactly favored in Skyrim. You're a Necromancer to boot? The Nords detest Necromancy, they're very touchy when it comes to the dead.
The Empire accepts Necromancy, and are willing to allow it as a study. Necromancers who have provided a service to the Empire don't need to hide in caves or ruined forts, but can live normally and have bodies of criminals delivered to their door.
LegateFasendil
Imperial Legate
Ahh the sound of the other shoe.... This is true. Like a rebellion within a rebellion inside a bottle.
Still, it's an interesting premise. How far would the Dark Elves go to support Ulfric, or more specifically to save the cause. The Nords know the answer to that question and that's the problem.
Well I suppose it is. It is if you're in the Stormcloak army and it is if your army is drying up.
It's good the Dark Elves contribute, but I suspect they're contributing more to the city / Provence and not as much towards the cause itself. See what I mean?
I don't blame the Dunmer either way, it's their choice to make even though they are helping as you say. Still their actions are not changing the Nords opinion of them as it appears they have not earned the Nords respect.
And *this* this will be an issue even after Ulfric is gone.
Ulfric's is a Barbarian Chiefdom and these are desperate times for them. Warlord Ulfric MUST be able to call on every able bodied man, regardless of civility. If he can't count on his men to fight and die for his cause, then they isn't "his men" now is they?
Therefore begs the next question, "If not for us then who or for what are these Dunmer willing to fight for?"
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TheQahnaarin
Son of Skyrim
All that comes with just being a citizen, as far as living in Windhelm goes they're doing the bare minimum for supporting the Stormcloaks (unwillingly at that). The Cornerclub even has Legion gear in the attic.
Not that this excuses the treatment of them but Niranye is right. Nords are stubborn, and to them youre still the "devils of the east". Coming to Windhelm and refusing to even acknowledge Nordic culture won't win you many friends. Really, the rebellion is a golden oppurtunity for them. If a few enlisted or even just strung up a blue bear banner and said "go Stormcloaks" it's a great place to start.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They're doing more than some other citizens. Food goes to feed the Stormcloaks, coin goes to fund the rebellion. They don't pick up a sword, and why should they? They believe the Stormcloaks seek to make Skyrim for the Nords only. I wouldn't pick up a sword if I felt the moment they win, they'll try kick me out.
The Cornerclub owned by one Dunmer, and the Nords don't even go down there. So it is unlikely they'd know about the Imperial objects, and they're most likely there to show remains of Imperial rule in Windhelm. If not, then you Stormcloaks are screwed if the Dunmer get pissed off any further, since they can get weapons and armor smuggled into the city.
It is from Ulfric the view gets legitimate. His inaction and disdain towards them gives his more extreme supporters fuel to hate on them.
How do they refuse to acknowledge Nordic culture? If the Stormcloaks are unable to handle the Dunmer calling their inn a cornerclub, they're even more unfit to rule. Skyrim doesn't need a Nord only styled rule. This is why the Old Holds are unable to be in control, much like Colovia isn't able to be in control of the Empire.
Killing other people and run the risk dying in the ditch to be treated like a normal citizen, doesn't sound like a great place to start.
Ulfric seeking to make Skyrim a more Nordic focused, gives him great support from the Eastern Holds... However, it goes beyond that and a lot of the Old Hold mentality is seen among the Stormcloak supporters and even their Officers. The "Skyrim for the Nords" won't make much friends among the eight other races. Stormcloak Officers make mention to rid Skyrim of Elves and their Justiciars, I did used to think it meant the Thalmor... But when I had my Orc and Dunmer character blamed for the Great War, Talos Ban and Justiciars it made me wonder.
I would not put it past the extreme supporters to twist Ulfric's words and actions to try rid some elves from their lands. It wouldn't be the first time an Old Hold has drove large numbers of elves from their region and that was simply over the fact they could be a Mage.
Some of the Dunmer believe the Stormcloaks will try force them out when they win the war. They wouldn't exactly help the Stormcloaks if they believed it to be true. Would you if you believed that? Would you really pick up a blade and bleed for people who have made your life hell, who have treated you like dirt?
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Anaora Of Pyandonea
New Member
I would suggest making two save files before you choose which side, then for one file join stormcloaks, the other the Imperials. finish their quest line and at the end decide which one seems more favourable for keeping to you.
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
Faithless Imperial
Atheist Arch Mage
I'm not sure you read my post, I never said the Imperials hands weren't dirty, only that they were the best of the two choices.
Heritage and culture are overrated in the grand scheme of things. Any god who desires worship is not worth the name anyway.
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Faithless Imperial
Atheist Arch Mage
Yeah, like I said, I appreciate that they are fighting for one half of freedom of religion but they don't seem to respect the faithless and they're more prone to chaos than anything, which are just some of the many problems I have with them, not to mention most towns not liking their presence when they take over. But, again, both sides can be dirty.
I agree it's important to fight for your right to believe as you please, what did the outlaw? wasn't it just public worship? meh, just do it inside a temple. It's more akin to banning evangelism, which is not necessarily a bad thing, I'd prefer they not push it on people in public. Also, didn't Tulius say that the ban was just temporary?
Ulfrich doesn't care about Talos worship, he's just fighting for power.
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Anaora Of Pyandonea
New Member
Rimfaxe96
Well-Known Member
That fancy jewelry aids me in the craft of necromancy
How can you call yourself a Stormcloak when you are a necromancer? You'll end up getting piked when they find out.
Hell yeah, that scene was so ̶h̶o̶t̶ epic!
Sven the Silent
Prince of Orange
I find it quite amusing that there are people on here with atheist characters, when in Tamriel the existence of the gods and that we have been created by gods has been proven. But that's a different subject all together, I suppose I will give my opinion on the Stormcloak and Imperial matter.
The Legion has always been in Skyrim and Nords have traditionally made up large parts of its armies for centuries, especially in the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. The feeling of Skyrim being one with the Empire is so strong, that in game the legionnaires you talk to are genuinly surprised when you ask them what the Legion is doing in Skyrim. The Legion has always been there, not all Imperials understand Nordic customs and not all Nords understand Imperial customs, but they're still united and have been for centuries. And as an Imperial province they believe that Skyrim should abide by its laws and customs, even those of the White-Hold Concordat. The treaty terms were especially harsh for Hamerfell and Skyrim, the Aldmeri correctly predicted that this would either cause a rebellion sooner or later. The Empire had no choice but to accept the treaty, they had won a powerful victory in Cyrodiil but there armies had almost ceased to exist, the Empire needed time to rebuild and accepting the peace was the only way their destruction and thus the destruction and occupation of all of Tamriel could be avoided.
Titus Mede II was aware of the consequences of the treaty and did the best he could to soften the blow, an example being that he cleverly declared all the Empire soldiers still in Hamerfell as ''invalid.'' This move ment that all those soldiers were allowed to continue fighting the Aldmeri Dominion, even though Hamerfell was no longer a part of the Empire. There is not a lot of information available on the amount or size, but I believe that this contributed greatly to Hamerfell successes five years later. The Empire also formally declared Talos worship as forbidden, they were very, very easy going with enforcing the actual ban though. Everyone in Skyrim still had their little shrines of Talos at home, the ban was one close the heart of many Nords but the lack of enforcement ensured that their was little trouble. In that time Ulfric only had a very small band of supporters, there was simply no reason to rebel. Someone with an outside few can clearly tell that the Aldmeri Dominion ment to cause trouble and further weaken the Empire with these treaties, they gained victory with the explusion of Hammerfell but their defeat to the very same independent kingdom years later made it a phyricc victory at best.
Now trouble was brewing in Skyrim, the Reachman declared independence after they successfully managed to kill the Nordic Jarl of the province and declared independence. The son of the murdered Jarl eventually called upon Ulfric's help so he could step in to reconquer the land, which he did. But the very brutality and mercilessness of his actions caused the creation of the Forsworn, a group which would continue to plague the Empire and Skyrim for decades. Reports vary, but it is said that every official who worked for the Reachmen was killed, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Reachmen fighters who had fled the city. Anyone who lived in the city, Reachmen and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. Ulfric supposedly even ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him. This is not propoganda against those whom support the Stormcloaks this is based on fact, a very sad fact at that. But Ulfric did it, he conquered the Reach and in return the Jarl promised him free worship of Talos in the city. When the Empire returned and Ulfric forbade them entrance to the city if they did not allow the free worship of Talos, the Empire accepted. Pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion however, forced them to recind and expell Ulfric and his militia from the city, after which they were all imprisoned, to keep the peace with the Aldmeri Dominion at all costs.
Years and years later with Ulfric having been a free man for quite some time he challenged the high king of Skyrim and murdered him, it was a duel in Nordic ways but even Ulfric himself admitted that the man stood no chance against him and the power of his voice. In many ways he did nearly shout the man apart, this was no duel in a honest way but simply an act of murder. When you duel with honour each man gets the same weapon, one does not get a battleaxe while the other gets a butterknife. By this point in time Ulfric had managed to cause so much trouble by demanding open worship of Talos that the singlehandedly forced the Empire to enforce the treaty more and more harshly, up to the point that the Thalmor stepped in in larger numbers to practically drag people away from their homes in the middle of the night. Ulfric believes that after Skyrim is independent that he can go to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, he thinks big while his army relies heavily on ambushes and hit and run tactics against a superior and larger Imperial army, which is only one of the Imperial Legions I mind you, one that needs reinforcements that they cannot get as well.
I don't think Ulfric is necessarely evil, he is just narrow-minded and is uncapable of seeing things for how they actually are. Even if you support the Stormcloaks and win, General Tullius congratulations him on playing right into the hand of the Aldmeri Dominion, this is what they wanted. Independence is something every country should have a right to, and they do. But not in a time like this, and especially when a majority of the population of Skyrim supports the Empire. The only possible way I can see why someone would join the Stormcloaks is because they do not know the facts. I will even admit that I once supported the Stormcloaks untill I started doing my research and realised that boy, was I wrong. Ulfric may not have created the conditions in his city against the Dunmer and Argonians but his refusal to deal with anything but the Civil War shows he's a bad jarl. His steward, soldiers and people constantly remind him of the issues yet he does not care, stating simply that he expects the guards should be capable of dealing with these issues themselves.
The real enemies are the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion, not the Empire who is trying to rebuild to face a future war (Imperials and Thalmors heavily imply that a second war is coming, probably when one of the two sides has enough power to launch the first strike.) And with pain in my heart I have to say that because of Ulfric and his rag tag band of Stormcloaks that the Almderi Dominion may be allowed the chance to strike first once more. The Stormcloak army is small, they rely heavilly not only on ambushes and hit and run tactics as said before but also on veterans from the war with the Aldmeri Domnions, these fighters are aging though and will soon have to retire, leaving only young and inexperienced fighters to his already weak and inexperienced army. Quantity is quality all on its own, but the Stormcloaks have neither quantity or quality to their exposal and an independent Skyrim would only increase hostilities between the side that still supported and possibly supports the Empire, the Reachman whom are fighting for independence as the Forsworn and the Stormcloak side who now has to try and rule their own country.
If only the Stormcloak supporters were smart enough to realise that if the Empire wins the next war against the Aldmeri Dominion that worship of Talos would be allowed once more, if only.
The Legion has always been in Skyrim and Nords have traditionally made up large parts of its armies for centuries, especially in the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. The feeling of Skyrim being one with the Empire is so strong, that in game the legionnaires you talk to are genuinly surprised when you ask them what the Legion is doing in Skyrim. The Legion has always been there, not all Imperials understand Nordic customs and not all Nords understand Imperial customs, but they're still united and have been for centuries. And as an Imperial province they believe that Skyrim should abide by its laws and customs, even those of the White-Hold Concordat. The treaty terms were especially harsh for Hamerfell and Skyrim, the Aldmeri correctly predicted that this would either cause a rebellion sooner or later. The Empire had no choice but to accept the treaty, they had won a powerful victory in Cyrodiil but there armies had almost ceased to exist, the Empire needed time to rebuild and accepting the peace was the only way their destruction and thus the destruction and occupation of all of Tamriel could be avoided.
Titus Mede II was aware of the consequences of the treaty and did the best he could to soften the blow, an example being that he cleverly declared all the Empire soldiers still in Hamerfell as ''invalid.'' This move ment that all those soldiers were allowed to continue fighting the Aldmeri Dominion, even though Hamerfell was no longer a part of the Empire. There is not a lot of information available on the amount or size, but I believe that this contributed greatly to Hamerfell successes five years later. The Empire also formally declared Talos worship as forbidden, they were very, very easy going with enforcing the actual ban though. Everyone in Skyrim still had their little shrines of Talos at home, the ban was one close the heart of many Nords but the lack of enforcement ensured that their was little trouble. In that time Ulfric only had a very small band of supporters, there was simply no reason to rebel. Someone with an outside few can clearly tell that the Aldmeri Dominion ment to cause trouble and further weaken the Empire with these treaties, they gained victory with the explusion of Hammerfell but their defeat to the very same independent kingdom years later made it a phyricc victory at best.
Now trouble was brewing in Skyrim, the Reachman declared independence after they successfully managed to kill the Nordic Jarl of the province and declared independence. The son of the murdered Jarl eventually called upon Ulfric's help so he could step in to reconquer the land, which he did. But the very brutality and mercilessness of his actions caused the creation of the Forsworn, a group which would continue to plague the Empire and Skyrim for decades. Reports vary, but it is said that every official who worked for the Reachmen was killed, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Reachmen fighters who had fled the city. Anyone who lived in the city, Reachmen and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. Ulfric supposedly even ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him. This is not propoganda against those whom support the Stormcloaks this is based on fact, a very sad fact at that. But Ulfric did it, he conquered the Reach and in return the Jarl promised him free worship of Talos in the city. When the Empire returned and Ulfric forbade them entrance to the city if they did not allow the free worship of Talos, the Empire accepted. Pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion however, forced them to recind and expell Ulfric and his militia from the city, after which they were all imprisoned, to keep the peace with the Aldmeri Dominion at all costs.
Years and years later with Ulfric having been a free man for quite some time he challenged the high king of Skyrim and murdered him, it was a duel in Nordic ways but even Ulfric himself admitted that the man stood no chance against him and the power of his voice. In many ways he did nearly shout the man apart, this was no duel in a honest way but simply an act of murder. When you duel with honour each man gets the same weapon, one does not get a battleaxe while the other gets a butterknife. By this point in time Ulfric had managed to cause so much trouble by demanding open worship of Talos that the singlehandedly forced the Empire to enforce the treaty more and more harshly, up to the point that the Thalmor stepped in in larger numbers to practically drag people away from their homes in the middle of the night. Ulfric believes that after Skyrim is independent that he can go to war with the Aldmeri Dominion, he thinks big while his army relies heavily on ambushes and hit and run tactics against a superior and larger Imperial army, which is only one of the Imperial Legions I mind you, one that needs reinforcements that they cannot get as well.
I don't think Ulfric is necessarely evil, he is just narrow-minded and is uncapable of seeing things for how they actually are. Even if you support the Stormcloaks and win, General Tullius congratulations him on playing right into the hand of the Aldmeri Dominion, this is what they wanted. Independence is something every country should have a right to, and they do. But not in a time like this, and especially when a majority of the population of Skyrim supports the Empire. The only possible way I can see why someone would join the Stormcloaks is because they do not know the facts. I will even admit that I once supported the Stormcloaks untill I started doing my research and realised that boy, was I wrong. Ulfric may not have created the conditions in his city against the Dunmer and Argonians but his refusal to deal with anything but the Civil War shows he's a bad jarl. His steward, soldiers and people constantly remind him of the issues yet he does not care, stating simply that he expects the guards should be capable of dealing with these issues themselves.
The real enemies are the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion, not the Empire who is trying to rebuild to face a future war (Imperials and Thalmors heavily imply that a second war is coming, probably when one of the two sides has enough power to launch the first strike.) And with pain in my heart I have to say that because of Ulfric and his rag tag band of Stormcloaks that the Almderi Dominion may be allowed the chance to strike first once more. The Stormcloak army is small, they rely heavilly not only on ambushes and hit and run tactics as said before but also on veterans from the war with the Aldmeri Domnions, these fighters are aging though and will soon have to retire, leaving only young and inexperienced fighters to his already weak and inexperienced army. Quantity is quality all on its own, but the Stormcloaks have neither quantity or quality to their exposal and an independent Skyrim would only increase hostilities between the side that still supported and possibly supports the Empire, the Reachman whom are fighting for independence as the Forsworn and the Stormcloak side who now has to try and rule their own country.
If only the Stormcloak supporters were smart enough to realise that if the Empire wins the next war against the Aldmeri Dominion that worship of Talos would be allowed once more, if only.
Megaton
New Member
Since I'm fresh in it and just started a new game yesterday I'll share my thoughts. I sided with the Stormcloaks. Before I made the choice of which person to follow when the dragon first attacks and saves your life in Helgen I thought carefully of which clan to lend my allegiance to. I just couldn't stand being an imperial. Even if that one nord was rather friendly, the commander still wanted to have my head without even knowing who I fully was! Uncalled for. So naturally I went with the people who weren't after my head. And I had already met Ulfric, and he seemed like a decent guy. So on my escape from Helgen with my new Stormcloak ally, I made sure to collect everything I could off the bodies of the fallen imperials. They are scum to me now.
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General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
General Charles Xander
General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I personally don't believe that the argument for the events that take place for your character in the beginning of the game are justified. Because Bethesda does this on purpose to develop your character in any way you want. You were in jail in Oblivion and a prisoner boat (I think) in Morrowind. Either one of them could've, and most likely, result in your death, yet when they actually do it, you hate them now?
I mean c'mon.
Oblivion: "Well, I'm in jail in the Imperial City and going to die. Oh, but I got out and saved the world. I love and forgive you Imperials!"
Skyrim: "Well, I'm in Helgen about die. Oh, but I got out and saved the world. Fuk you Imperials!"
Really? It's your character. You can make him/her anyway you want. For all you know, a lot of people actually make characters who deserved to be there. Therefor the argument is not a valid one.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
"The local Nords may not like us very much, but they don't seem to mind having access to enchanted weapons and armor." - Sergius Turrianus
"I think we could blow up half of Eastmarch, and people would still come to us for enchantments." - Sergius Turrianus
The Nords may not favor magic, but they don't mind taking their items to the college of Winterhold to be enchanted.
While I can understand the Nords detest the art of necromancy... it is like any art. It's no better than taking a sword, and stabbing someone in the heart. I guess we have some disagreements in that department.
While I do respect the Empires welcoming the art of necromancy... The fact reminds is that the Empires methods for executing criminals (Death by decapitation) seems to be unfavored of the art... unless if you're working on the reanimation of a part of the body.
We necromancers prefer the whole body attached.
EDITED: An addition we also prefer total privacy, and so we hide in caves and in abandoned forts to conduct our experiments in peace without any interruption. It also brings in new specimens of those who can't resist the temptation driven by greed.
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