Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

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Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
Well i know, i've done the quest. But what i really don't understand is why Ulfric doesn't take over the east empire company. He could then stop the empire from geting resources.
And the resources could then go to Winhelm, or sold to others, more money for Ulfric?

I just don't see the logic..

But the resources already go to Windhelm. It's like arguing with somebody and demanding they hand over their chocolate, when you already have all their chocolate.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
It's main base is in solitude.

Actually, I don't think that's its MAIN main base, just the Skyrim main base. I think the most logical place for the main base of the East Empire Company to be would be the Imperial City docks.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Actually, I don't think that's its MAIN main base, just the Skyrim main base. I think the most logical place for the main base of the East Empire Company to be would be the Imperial City docks.
Yeah that's what I meant :V
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
I do see similarities. Not enough to justify a comparison for one basic reason that you cannot deny.

Everyone in Tamriel is a citizen of Tamriel. They are unified under the empire created by Tiber Septim. There is no 'immigrant' in Tamriel or skyrim. Outsiders yes, but they are still Citizens and should be treated as such. They are only outsiders in the way a Texan like myself is an outsider of Utah. Refrain from insulting my intelligence by saying I believe everything I'm told. You're far too heated right now in this debate and until you relax, I'll see fit to ignore your posts. You're not going to even help your own side if you keep delving into personal attacks.
I'm startin to see how you're separating RL instances to Skyrim, makes sense but I think you're missing my point. People of the same kind (human) in RL and races in the ES' world (freakin cats and lizards!) are hard to compare, I get that. Im lookin at it from the outside looking in though and see major similarities between how these 'outsiders' and RL immigrants in the US are treated. You dismissed that by bringing up 'laws and policies' which I seen as a major cop out, sorry, not trying to 'attack' you but I did/do. I've learned thats common practice in these threads when one side brings up valid points, the other dismisses it and goes a different route, Im guilty of such myself. By bringing up things like 'policies and laws' when all I'm saying is the conditions in which RL and in-game 'outsiders' share undeniable similarities, its safe to assume one would take a 'follow the book, to hell with whats really going on' type of stance, I apologize if thats not the case and you were offended, those aren't my intentions. Ulfric's segreation of the dunmer and argonians are no different from how the US treats immigrants who come here. You're not neccessarily welcome, but if you do manage to make it here, you aint guna have ideal living conditions (unless you work your ass off and/or ingage in illegal activity, and working your ass off aint even a guarrantee) you'll definately run into a fair share of people who won't like you because you aint like them and will be opressed by 'The Man' by design. Thats just how I see it from where I stand, again though, my apologies if I came off as offensive or attacking, take it as enthusiasm not anger :D
 

Stigweard Ruadhan

Jeg er stolt. Jeg er sterk.
The implicitly inferred racism of the real world would pale into an explicitly literal racism in Tamriel...

Therein differences aren't predicated by colour or cultural idiosyncrasies - as in the real world, but instead by a significant and deeply intrinsic 'difference' of all that makes a person.

It's mightily interesting.
 

KC95

Member
Because he is. And sadly, thats not even the worst thing about him. He's been more detrimental to Nords in my opinion, all in his quest for power.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
*looks through file cabinet of forum debate responses* .... *flips through tabbed folders* .... *after much flipping, stops* Ah yes, here it is! *grabs folder titled 'The Lazy Dunmer/Mooching Dunmer/Mooching Non-Nord Argument'* :p

So, what exactly constitutes 'mooching'? Because if you mean simply that they're not actively supporting his war, then there are certainly more 'moochers' in Windhelm than just the Dunmer and Argonians.

You trying to tell me that Ulfric is just letting a bunch of squatters hang about in his city, in those Gray Quarter residences no less? That would be one of the quickest ways to go after them, really. All legal-like. Or as close to legal-like as we could hope to get in a place like Tamriel. Plus, I hardly think he'd sooner allow Nord squatters and homeless persons (Silda, I'm looking at you) than Dunmer ones. In other words, if the Dunmer aren't paying rent or otherwise earning their keep with the measly wages they get in the jobs they're allowed to have, I highly doubt we'd even see them in the Gray Quarter at this point. Methinks there would have been some eviction notices signed. Toss out the Dunmer, put in people like Silda the Unseen or one of his own former men, Angrenor. He IS Jarl after all.

Bottom line is that there's nothing to indicate that they're not earning their keep there. Their presence in Windhelm predates the current conflict. You can choose to believe they inherited the fight and necessity to support it, but if that were truly the case, Windhelm itself wouldn't contain Nords with conflicting views on rightful allegiance.

The bottom line is the Dunmers and the Argonians have shelters where they can cook their food and sleep. They get the protection that is provided from the Jarl. It might not be the prettiest place to live in, but it's still cozy. They also own a pawn store, a tavern of their own, and a street vender.

Why are they complaining when they have it good? Is it because the citizens are harassing them? Guess what bullying is part of life, which is unfortunate. Perhaps they should defend themselves by standing up for what is right.

Perhaps if they had fighting drive like Gabriella from the dark brotherhood then maybe the citizens there would leave them alone.
Think someone like Rolff Stone-Fist would try to mess with someone like her? Most likely not. Fear earns respect.

Why do you think nobody messes with Niranye anymore? Because she can seriously put the hurt on someone... even to the point of putting them away behind bars for life.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
The bottom line is the Dunmers and the Argonians have shelters where they can cook their food and sleep. They get the protection that is provided from the Jarl. It might not be the prettiest place to live in, but it's still cozy. They also own a pawn store, a tavern of their own, and a street vender.

Why are they complaining when they have it good? Is it because the citizens are harassing them? Guess what bullying is part of life, which is unfortunate. Perhaps they should defend themselves by standing up for what is right.

Perhaps if they had fighting drive like Gabriella from the dark brotherhood then maybe the citizens there would leave them alone.
Think someone like Rolff Stone-Fist would try to mess with someone like her? Most likely not. Fear earns respect.

Why do you think nobody messes with Niranye anymore? Because she can seriously put the hurt on someone... even to the point of putting them away behind bars for life.
I would love to see you work in their living conditions with no chance at anything better and say you're greatful for what you have. And did you really just say an Assassin who murders is worth more than them? Funny, because when I destroy the dark brotherhood with any character, she's the only one who runs away when her health falls at 25%.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I would love to see you work in their living conditions with no chance at anything better and say you're greatful for what you have. And did you really just say an Assassin who murders is worth more than them? Funny, because when I destroy the dark brotherhood with any character, she's the only one who runs away when her health falls at 25%.

If I (A none Dragonborn player) had a choice between living out in the wilderness and living at a safe and secured place like the Grey Quaters I take my chances there. At least I don't have to worry about bears eating me, bandits killing me and then stealing my stuffs, and more important giants trying to launch me up into space for being in their territory. I did not say that an Assassin (Gabriella) is worth more than them. I simply said that if they had a bit more of a backbone, and start sticking up for themselves then perhaps they wouldn't be the target of a bully.

Oh and it's a normal for someone to run away if they believe that their life is in danger. That's how you survive.
 

feliciano182

Well-Known Member
Imperial officer gear in the home of a dark elf, in Stormcloak territory. Lucky Ulfric aint all gestapo and has his men regularly 'check' the homes of the dunmer that he 'hates' and distrusts, thats what I'd expect a paranoid KKK-esque racist to do if 'outsiders' lived in their town.

Stormcloak Logic !

If you're a true spy of Skyrim ! Then carry your official gear into enemy territory !
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
I would love to see you work in their living conditions with no chance at anything better and say you're greatful for what you have. And did you really just say an Assassin who murders is worth more than them? Funny, because when I destroy the dark brotherhood with any character, she's the only one who runs away when her health falls at 25%.
-_-............. People do that IRL and still push through. Oh noes! Another RL comparison!? :eek: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Jk jk :rolleyes:
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Fear doesn't earn real respect. Fear earns rebellion, retaliation. Another trait of a bad leader is thinking fear brings anything good.
If I (A none Dragonborn player) had a choice between living out in the wilderness and living at a safe and secured place like the Grey Quaters I take my chances there. At least I don't have to worry about bears eating me, bandits killing me and then stealing my stuffs, and more important giants trying to launch me up into space for being in their territory. I did not say that an Assassin (Gabriella) is worth more than them. I simply said that if they had a bit more of a backbone, and start sticking up for themselves then perhaps they wouldn't be the target of a bully.

Oh and it's a normal for someone to run away if they believe that their life is in danger. That's how you survive.
Safe and Secure? When a drunk nord is allowed to harass them daily in the morning? That the guards do nothing about? I wouldn't feel safe at all. It's not as easy for a citizen to just get up and leave a hold like it is for the Dragonborn. What you're saying in that last sentence is what exactly? That its their fault they are being bullied? This drunk is the brother of Ulfric's right hand and he obviously shows his hate clear and true. You think they can defend themselves like that? Because obviously its not working when a nord who looks out for them tries to help so why would standing up against the leaders make a difference? Rule by fear is a terrible concept. It breeds hatred. I look again at castle volkihar. You think vingalmo and the other vampire respect Harkon's rule? Of course not. They want it for themselves and will try to take it any chance they get.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Fear doesn't earn real respect. Fear earns rebellion, retaliation. Another trait of a bad leader is thinking fear brings anything good.

Safe and Secure? When a drunk nord is allowed to harass them daily in the morning? That the guards do nothing about? I wouldn't feel safe at all. It's not as easy for a citizen to just get up and leave a hold like it is for the Dragonborn. What you're saying in that last sentence is what exactly? That its their fault they are being bullied? This drunk is the brother of Ulfric's right hand and he obviously shows his hate clear and true. You think they can defend themselves like that? Because obviously its not working when a nord who looks out for them tries to help so why would standing up against the leaders make a difference? Rule by fear is a terrible concept. It breeds hatred. I look again at castle volkihar. You think vingalmo and the other vampire respect Harkon's rule? Of course not. They want it for themselves and will try to take it any chance they get.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Galmars drunken brother may spill out racism slurs at the Dunmers late at night, but I've never seen him go up to a Dunmer and physically assault them with his fist. To be honest with you I don't even think it even bothers them anymore. He does it all the time that they essentially gotten use to it. And for the love of Mara it is that easy to just get up and leave a hold. Children run away from their homes all the time because their tired living under their parents rules. If Aventus Aretino could escaped from the Honorhall Orphanage in Riften and ran back home in Windhelm (quite a distance) unharmed then I'm certain that these Dunmers can do the same. Funny how you people are so quick to protect the Dunmers and their rights... but you mark them down as too weak to defend for themselves.

As far as castle Volkihar... they live under a whole new different set of rules. Only the strong can rule. If Harkon shows any signs of weakness he will be replaced. Either it be Vingalmo or Orthjolf (If the Dragonborn never existed) Like I said fear earns respect, not rebellion. The vampires of the castle fear Harkon because of his power.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
This is outright naive and childish I can't even begin to explain how backwards this remark is.

Galmars drunken brother may spill out racism slurs at the Dunmers late at night, but I've never seen him go up to a Dunmer and physically assault them with his fist. To be honest with you I don't even think it even bothers them anymore. He does it all the time that they essentially gotten use to it.
And this a good thing? This makes it right?

And for the love of Mara it is that easy to just get up and leave a hold. Children run away from their homes all the time because their tired living under their parents rules. If Aventus Aretino could escaped from the Honorhall Orphanage in Riften and ran back home in Windhelm (quite a distance) unharmed then I'm certain that these Dunmers can do the same. Funny how you people are so quick to protect the Dunmers and their rights... but you mark them down as too weak to defend for themselves.

The child had no property, no livihood and nothing to his name. Only the very clothes on his back and while yes he managed to trek all that way some how on his own, the Dunmer can't just abandon the lively hood they've made for themselves. As you said, you'd rather be in the walls then out in the monster infested roads. Not to mention bandits, necromancers, dragons and monsters. There are many trade caravans through out skyrim in out right pieces. No one is calling the Dunmer weak, we are saying that realistically its neigh impossible to leave everything behind they're worked for. It's not a matter of weakness, but a matter of tragedy and risk. In either case while its slightly safer in windhelm because they are out of immediate danger, doesn't mean they should have to accept the neglect of the leader in charge.

Risks the dunmer/Argonians face alone, Stormcloaks, Bandits, Dragons, monsters, animals. We don't know how the child made it to windhelm in one piece, so unless you can show me some example of his journey, who's to say he didnt hide among a caravan? Something a child could do.

As far as castle Volkihar... they live under a whole new different set of rules. Only the strong can rule. If Harkon shows any signs of weakness he will be replaced. Either it be Vingalmo or Orthjolf (If the Dragonborn never existed) Like I said fear earns respect, not rebellion. The vampires of the castle fear Harkon because of his power.
You missed my point or ignored it entirely. Respect=/=Fear. The Dark elf vampire in the castle who is above the squabbles among the vampires clearly shows respect for Harkon, as he shows you respect when you take over. However neither the high elf nor the nord show respect to harkon or you. As the nord says even after you rule, "Don't get in my way, and I won't tear your arms off. simple, Isn't it?"
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Galmars drunken brother may spill out racism slurs at the Dunmers late at night, but I've never seen him go up to a Dunmer and physically assault them with his fist. To be honest with you I don't even think it even bothers them anymore. He does it all the time that they essentially gotten use to it.

I find it HILARIOUS that you'd say this after you go off on a rant about the one Dark Elf who states he doesn't care about Nords. (At least he has a legitimate reason to say what he says)
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
This is outright naive and childish I can't even begin

Unless if you can show me evidence that a Dunmer committed suicide over the drunken Nord racial slurs no it's not childish at all.

And this a good thing? This makes it right?
Did I ever say that it was right?


The child had no property, no livihood and nothing to his name. Only the very clothes on his back and while yes he managed to trek all that way some how on his own, the Dunmer can't just abandon the lively hood they've made for themselves. As you said, you'd rather be in the walls then out in the monster infested roads. Not to mention bandits, necromancers, dragons and monsters. There are many trade caravans through out skyrim in out right pieces. No one is calling the Dunmer weak, we are saying that realistically its neigh impossible to leave everything behind they're worked for. It's not a matter of weakness, but a matter of tragedy and risk. In either case while its slightly safer in windhelm because they are out of immediate danger, doesn't mean they should have to accept the neglect of the leader in charge.

How do you know that the child didn't have property? And yes the kid does have something in his name. It is his home in Windhelm that was given to him through an inheritance from his mother base on the letter that is inside of his from written by the steward. If the Dunmers aren't weak, as you claim, then they can fight and defend for themselves. They can walk up and leave Windhelm and find other places to live in. Perhabs they can find a fort... if occupied with bandits, I'm certain that they can fight and win for new territory.


Risks the dunmer/Argonians face alone, Stormcloaks, Bandits, Dragons, monsters, animals. We don't know how the child made it to windhelm in one piece, so unless you can show me some example of his journey, who's to say he didnt hide among a caravan? Something a child could do.

Can you prove to me that the caravan assisted the kid from Riften to Windhelm? I highly doubt that the cat people would help a nord child without some kind of payment, and even then they're too busy trying to protect their own goods from getting stolen. I don't think they have time to deal with a child because their there strictly for business. We don't know for sure how the kid manage to get from A to Z. The fact to the matter is he did it without harm.


You missed my point or ignored it entirely. Respect=/=Fear. The Dark elf vampire in the castle who is above the squabbles among the vampires clearly shows respect for Harkon, as he shows you respect when you take over. However neither the high elf nor the nord show respect to harkon or you. As the nord says even after you rule, "Don't get in my way, and I won't tear your arms off. simple, Isn't it?"

The High elf and the Nord vampire are currently fighting with each other so they can get to the throne.... and since you toggled along that makes even more of a competition for them, so of course their not going to be nice to you once you take over.

Not sure how this can be related with the Dunmer situation in Windhelm thought.
 

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