Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

[thatwudbryan]

Skyrim is part of Tamriel right? more importantly they are of men. kickback and pray... How about kickback and be helpful instead of feeding into Ulfric's BS... But we are off topic IS ULFRIC RACIST!!!! hmmm I would say so...

Be helpful by abandoning your core values, bending to the Thalmor's will and let your people die? Oh sure why didn't I pick that option how Dumb of me, what a fool I must look like!

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Be helpful by abandoning your core values, bending to the Thalmor's will and let your people die? Oh sure why didn't I pick that option how Dumb of me, what a fool I must look like!

He said be helpful, not be submissive. Rebelling is basically a lose-lose for everyone. Nobody wins at all. We've seen that. Ulfric could have helped by, oh I dunno, actually praying?

Answer me honestly. Do you once see Ulfric go near a Temple of Talos? No. Just as Longest here was the figurehead for a little rebellion me and some folks had, Talos is merely his figurehead. Now please, back on topic.

Ulfric is a blatant racist. You can see that by talking to the Argonians at the Assemblage, and actually just viewing the Assemblage door at night. They are locked in, under an extremely difficult lock. They aren't allowed to leave at any point.

 

[thatwudbryan]

That's exactly the wrong idea. How can we decide which side is right if we just view it as code and voice actors? The more impersonal we make this topic, the more skewed and flawed our arguments are. Not thinking of this in terms of real conflict does the topic a disservice.

By talking to the IN GAME characters and hearing there opinions and thoughts on the matter, cuz its a video game, for our entertainment. Its an RPG right? I didn't know I was just supposed to stick to my RL ideals. What a boring character that would be huh some Imperial gettin walked all over by the Thalmor, being politically correct while ignoring whats Really going on in Skyrim (or earth, I guess) and wearing a pretty red skirt. Wait, on that last note maybe it would be fun!

 

[thatwudbryan]

He said be helpful, not be submissive. Rebelling is basically a lose-lose for everyone. Nobody wins at all. We've seen that. Ulfric could have helped by, oh I dunno, actually praying?

Answer me honestly. Do you once see Ulfric go near a Temple of Talos? No. Just as Longest here was the figurehead for a little rebellion me and some folks had, Talos is merely his figurehead. Now please, back on topic.

Ulfric is a blatant racist. You can see that by talking to the Argonians at the Assemblage, and actually just viewing the Assemblage door at night. They are locked in, under an extremely difficult lock. They aren't allowed to leave at any point.

Submissive, like the imperials? Do you ever see Any jarl do anything other than sit on there throne or get up for scripted Quest related stuff? If so tell me where I must see this RL human like jarl! He is a racist though

 

[Captain Nagisus]

By talking to the IN GAME characters and hearing there opinions and thoughts on the matter, cuz its a video game, for our entertainment. Its an RPG right? I didn't know I was just supposed to stick to my RL ideals. What a boring character that would be huh some Imperial gettin walked all over by the Thalmor, being politically correct while ignoring whats Really going on in Skyrim (or earth, I guess) and wearing a pretty red skirt. Wait, on that last note maybe it would be fun!

Just a quick comment. I think I've reached a point where I've listened to so much of the exact same sentences written differently that I'm beginning to think you're just stating your point over and over and ignoring what everyone has to say.

Just sayin' is all.

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Submissive, like the imperials? Do you ever see Any jarl do anything other than sit on there throne or get up for scripted Quest related stuff? If so tell me where I must see this RL human like jarl! He is a racist though

(I'm ignoring the stuff about the Jarls because I'll get too off topic if I do, but Balgruuf is a great Jarl who does stuff for his people. Quick example: he sent guards to Riverwood to defend against dragons. That's something.)

See! You've spent so long disagreeing because you've misunderstood what this entire damn thread is about. You seem to believe you're on the other side, but you're not. You're on our side, the Ulfric-is-racist side. It's not the Imperial or Stormcloak side, because this thread is not about picking a team on the Civil war. Just, completely ignore the existence of the Civil war. *draws a thick black line* Step over that line if you think, ignoring all aspects of the Civil war, he is not a racist.

 

[thatwudbryan]

Just a quick comment. I think I've reached a point where I've listened to so much of the exact same sentences written differently that I'm beginning to think you're just stating your point over and over and ignoring what everyone has to say.

Just sayin' is all.

Few words need to be said when your mind is made up captain Way I see it, imperial supporters need to bring out EVERY fact they got just to prove the SC's as an evil no good bunch and defend their empire's lack of heart and overall weakness. SC arguementor? "Our people are dying, some snotty ass elves are here telling us what to do and who to/not to worship and are waiting in the wings to kill us ALL. So we bring the fight to them at which point boys? Tomarrow? A week? after the meads gone? An hour it is!"

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Few words need to be said when your mind is made up captain Way I see it, imperial supporters need to bring out EVERY fact they got just to prove the SC's as an evil no good bunch and defend their empire's lack of heart and overall weakness. SC arguementor? "Our people are dying, some snotty ass elves are here telling us what to do and who to/not to worship and are waiting in the wings to kill us ALL. So we bring the fight to them at which point boys? Tomarrow? A week? after the meads gone? An hour it is!"

You didn't answer the relevant question. Is Ulfric, or is Ulfric not, a racist? I never said anything about evil or no-good, I never said anything about the Stormcloaks.

Ignore the Stormcloaks. Ignore the Civil war. And answer me clearly. IS. ULFRIC. RACIST. IN. YOUR. OPINION?

 

[thatwudbryan]

(I'm ignoring the stuff about the Jarls because I'll get too off topic if I do, but Balgruuf is a great Jarl who does stuff for his people. Quick example: he sent guards to Riverwood to defend against dragons. That's something.)

See! You've spent so long disagreeing because you've misunderstood what this entire damn thread is about. You seem to believe you're on the other side, but you're not. You're on our side, the Ulfric-is-racist side. It's not the Imperial or Stormcloak side, because this thread is not about picking a team on the Civil war. Just, completely ignore the existence of the Civil war. *draws a thick black line* Step over that line if you think, ignoring all aspects of the Civil war, he is not a racist.

AHA!!!! In game proof of the SC's true reasons n values for fighting this war over the Imperial empty promises and propaganda you wish to ignore! Smart man! N in game stuff is off-topic? O yeah, the racist thing, yeah hes a racist but check that post of Raijins while your at it. But the imperials are undoubtedly, undeniable correct in their efforts, aren't hypocrties and are the greatest thing known to any living being in the ES universe? Gotcha!

 

[Captain Nagisus]

I never said any single thing like that. What I asked, was answered. You're on the same side as me. You seem mistaken as to what this thread is about. I read all of Raijin's posts. Get over yourself.

 

[thatwudbryan]

I never said any single thing like that. What I asked, was answered. You're on the same side as me. You seem mistaken as to what this thread is about. I read all of Raijin's posts. Get over yourself.

Went a bit off topic, shoulda mentioned that about 10 pages ago instead of feeding the fire. When the crap side (Stormcloaks) has actually explained thier side of the arguement and the others can't argue against it other than bringing up facts that the other could care less about n that have nothing to do with thier reasons of the base of thier arguement its time to call it quits. Just trying to serve the same medicine thats being served on the other side is all

 

[Docta Corvina]

AHA!!!! In game proof of the SC's true reasons n values for fighting this war over the Imperial empty promises and propaganda you wish to ignore! Smart man! N in game stuff is off-topic? O yeah, the racist thing, yeah hes a racist but check that post of Raijins while your at it. But the imperials are undoubtedly, undeniable correct in their efforts, aren't hypocrties and are the greatest thing known to any living being in the ES universe? Gotcha!

What in game proof is he ignoring exactly? I've begun to lose track of all of this, honestly.

As for the bit about the Jarls, back when you implied that none of them do anything...what does this have to do with the topic at hand? For the record, Laila, a Stormcloak sympathizing Jarl of Riften, isn't exactly known for being adept or terribly well respected in her position. Even her own dialogue suggests that she's worried about herself first, then her people. Do I even usually bother pointing to her as a strike against the Stormcloaks? No. Because I don't need to. She ain't even worth it. I'm only bringing her up now because you appear to think that Siddgeir is somehow proof that the Imperials are the Devil incarnate.

But Captain is right, the debate has strayed from the original topic and it might be good to return it. Ulfric, even if he doesn't wanna stab non-Nords in the face, clearly has biases. Even though he may not have started the policy regarding the Dunmer, he has offered no indication of intention to rescind it. That's just the facts. Yeah, he himself says he currently has bigger fish to fry before dealing with the Gray Quarter situation, but guess what? He's been Jarl for years. He's had time to do something positive about it before now and has let the opportunity pass. I also spoke to an Argonian dock worker while playing this weekend and unless I heard wrong, he mentioned that the policy relegating his people to the docks and otherwise outside the city walls was a policy Ulfric enacted. Meaning that it's relatively recent history, in terms of human lifetimes. I found that very interesting.

In before anyone says, "But Brunwulf doesn't change that policy with the Argonians either!". While this is true, he at least expresses the desire to do so, and says that he's essentially testing the waters in the name of safety, namely for the Argonians themselves. Therein lies a huge difference between the two men as leaders. Brunwulf is a Great War veteran and a strong Nord who cares very much about his homeland - and the welfare of the plurality within it. And I sincerely believe he would take every issue with the implication that he's anything less than a 'true son of Skyrim'.

 

[thatwudbryan]

What in game proof is he ignoring exactly? I've begun to lose track of all of this, honestly.

As for the bit about the Jarls, back when you implied that none of them do anything...what does this have to do with the topic at hand? For the record, Laila, a Stormcloak sympathizing Jarl of Riften, isn't exactly known for being adept or terribly well respected in her position. Even her own dialogue suggests that she's worried about herself first, then her people. Do I even usually bother pointing to her as a strike against the Stormcloaks? No. Because I don't need to. She ain't even worth it. I'm only bringing her up now because you appear to think that Siddgeir is somehow proof that the Imperials are the Devil incarnate.

But Captain is right, the debate has strayed from the original topic and it might be good to return it. Ulfric, even if he doesn't wanna stab non-Nords in the face, clearly has biases. Even though he may not have started the policy regarding the Dunmer, he has offered no indication of intention to rescind it. That's just the facts. Yeah, he himself says he currently has bigger fish to fry before dealing with the Gray Quarter situation, but guess what? He's been Jarl for years. He's had time to do something positive about it before now and has let the opportunity pass. I also spoke to an Argonian dock worker while playing this weekend and he mentioned that the policy relegating his people to the docks and otherwise outside the city walls was a policy Ulfric enacted. Meaning that it's relatively recent history, in terms of human lifetimes. I found that very interesting.

In before anyone says, "But Brunwulf doesn't change that policy with the Argoanians either!". While this is true, he at least expresses the desire to do so, and says that he's essentially testing the waters in the name of safety, namely for the Argonians themselves. Therein lies a huge difference between the two men as leaders. Brunwulf is a Great War veteran and a strong Nord who cares very much about his homeland - and the welfare of the plurality within it. And I sincerely believe he would take every issue with the implication that he's anything less than a 'true son of Skyrim'.

Just run along the stormcloak questline and talk to the before and after jarls and see where its all at. He mentioned Ulfric never goin to the temple of talos so I reminded that NO jarl does anything other than sit down or get up for scripted quests. Much as I like it in-game Riftin's all F'ed up regardless of whos jarl so I wouldn't look deep into that either. N yeah that was My Bad there but damn it was becoming an Ulfric and stormcloaks are ALL evil n racist bash party which was partially untrue. Ulfric a racist yeah no doubt but all SC's? Really? Nooooo most are just fighting for what they think is right, thier freedom thier land and thier dignity by not bowing to the Thalmor. Sorry bout the off-topicness OP shoulda jus rated all my posts as such haha

 

[Docta Corvina]

Just run along the stormcloak questline and talk to the before and after jarls and see where its all at. He mentioned Ulfric never goin to the temple of talos so I reminded that NO jarl does anything other than sit down or get up for scripted quests. Much as I like it in-game Riftin's all F'ed up regardless of whos jarl so I wouldn't look deep into that either. N yeah that was My Bad there but damn it was becoming an Ulfric and stormcloaks are ALL evil n racist bash party which was partially untrue. Ulfric a racist yeah no doubt but all SC's? Really? Nooooo most are just fighting for what they think is right, thier freedom thier land and thier dignity by not bowing to the Thalmor. Sorry bout the off-topicness OP shoulda jus rated all my posts as such haha

I've never argued that all Stormcloaks are racist. I don't believe that to be true anymore than I think that any Imperial loves the Thalmor. There are racist elements within the Stormcloak faction (ie. some sympathizers) and it is easily argued that Ulfric is shady when it comes to that aspect. His inactions as a leader speak quite a bit, even if he's not bitterly hateful.

Out-of-hand dismissal of an example of a Stormcloak Jarl behaving badly aside, the Jarls all come with their own set of baggage, having quite a bit to do with the fact that they're rather independent in their governance and embark upon their own deals and mandates. But yeah, I wouldn't necessarily look to the Jarls for the sole definitive evidence of one side being awesome or not.

And lol, I think we've all taken this to the broader Civil War topic in some fashion, so no matter. In a way, it always seems to come back to it anyway when discussing Ulfric in any capacity.

 

[thatwudbryan]

I've never argued that all Stormcloaks are racist. I don't believe that to be true anymore than I think that any Imperial loves the Thalmor. There are racist elements within the Stormcloak faction (ie. some sympathizers) and it is easily argued that Ulfric is shady when it comes to that aspect. His inactions as a leader speak quite a bit, even if he's not bitterly hateful.

Out-of-hand dismissal of an example of a Stormcloak Jarl behaving badly aside, the Jarls all come with their own set of baggage, having quite a bit to do with the fact that they're rather independent in their governance and embark upon their own deals and mandates. But yeah, I wouldn't necessarily look to the Jarls for the sole definitive evidence of one side being awesome or not.

And lol, I think we've all taken this to the broader Civil War topic in some fashion, so no matter. In a way, it always seems to come back to it anyway when discussing Ulfric in any capacity.

Never said you specifically just the 1st page or so of people took it as an oppurtunity to bash the stormcloaks as a whole which was kinda BS in my eyes. Ulfric is a power hungry narrow minded racist of a leader, that being said I still believe hes the best person, whether he was a legionaire or stormcloak rebel, to take charge on the Thalmor (which is slightly on topic, kinda) I guess the blue collar approach of the nords appeal to me, a bunch of sword n shield/heavy-weapon wielding, mead drinking, proud and traditional group of folk fighting for whats thiers seemed like the better choice IMO which is the whole damn point right? Our opinions dictate which side we think is right because as you said, thier is no black-white right-wrong, its a video game you make your own assumptions and pick your own side. It seems the imperial supporters think because what they back up in the empire's reasoning of things just sounds nicer its a free pass to say that the stormcloaks are the wrong choice, WRONG. Not so realistic are what the empire's hopes to accomplish are, which can also be said for the rebellion.

 

[Austin Chaos]

lol...my bad....it's like this: The Thalmor, of the Aldermi Dominion, are too powerful for the Empire to defeat, which is why they signed the treaty. The Stormcloaks, while formidable, simply do not have the manpower or resources to beat the Empire outright. So what I'm saying is that since the Stormcloaks can't decidedly beat the Empire, they would stand no chance against the Thalmor. So a Stormcloak win would actually improve things for the Thalmor, as they could easily defeat what remained of the Stormcloaks, and then they are unhindered in a takeover of Skyrim.

As it stands currently, the Empire's treaty with the Dominion is the only thing keeping the high elves from simply coming in and taking over Skyrim by force.

 

[thatwudbryan]

lol...my bad....it's like this: The Thalmor, of the Aldermi Dominion, are too powerful for the Empire to defeat, which is why they signed the treaty. The Stormcloaks, while formidable, simply do not have the manpower or resources to beat the Empire outright. So what I'm saying is that since the Stormcloaks can't decidedly beat the Empire, they would stand no chance against the Thalmor. So a Stormcloak win would actually improve things for the Thalmor, as they could easily defeat what remained of the Stormcloaks, and then they are unhindered in a takeover of Skyrim.

As it stands currently, the Empire's treaty with the Dominion is the only thing keeping the high elves from simply coming in and taking over Skyrim by force.

Yet the Thalmor still wish to avoid a Stormcloak rebel victory. I'm sorry but that just strikes me as odd! If they are the weaker of the two, (I'll roll with that assumption for now) why would they want them to win when the dossier on Ulfric says otherwise? Thats why I say eff it all just bumrush the SOBs what else they got to lose that they aint losin already?

 

[Austin Chaos]

Yet the Thalmor still wish to avoid a Stormcloak rebel victory. I'm sorry but that just strikes me as odd! If they are the weaker of the two, (I'll roll with that assumption for now) why would they want them to win when the dossier on Ulfric says otherwise? Thats why I say eff it all just bumrush the SOBs what else they got to lose that they aint losin already?

There is certainly that aspect, and history has shown that there have been plenty of underdog victories. In my personal opinion, a unified strike against the Thalmor by the Stormcloaks could potentially A) Turn the tides of the battle in favor of the Empire (because even if the Stormcloaks win, all will need to be united versus the Dominion) and B) Rally non-supporters to the cause due to the extremely patriotic showing by the Stormcloaks.

In fact, if we really want a fun little twist, a Stormcloak win could actually unify Skyrim, and re-establish both the strength of the Empire, and Skyrim's connection to it. Granted, this would all take quite a long time, but if the Stormcloaks were to be successful in defending the people of Skyrim, the country would be unified again, A unified Skyrim could agree to renegotiate its position within the Empire, so as to provide a united front against the Dominion, and really swing things in the Empire's favor.

Hypothetically, of course.

 

[thatwudbryan]

There is certainly that aspect, and history has shown that there have been plenty of underdog victories. In my personal opinion, a unified strike against the Thalmor by the Stormcloaks could potentially A) Turn the tides of the battle in favor of the Empire (because even if the Stormcloaks win, all will need to be united versus the Dominion) and B) Rally non-supporters to the cause due to the extremely patriotic showing by the Stormcloaks.

In fact, if we really want a fun little twist, a Stormcloak win could actually unify Skyrim, and re-establish both the strength of the Empire, and Skyrim's connection to it. Granted, this would all take quite a long time, but if the Stormcloaks were to be successful in defending the people of Skyrim, the country would be unified again, A unified Skyrim could agree to renegotiate its position within the Empire, so as to provide a united front against the Dominion, and really swing things in the Empire's favor.

Hypothetically, of course.

Holy crap balls THIS MAN GETS IT!!!! Lead by example would the stormcloaks while the empire could get their rest and regroup win win for all YAAAAY!!!

 

[Dagmar]

Thalmor are proven to give support to the Stormcloaks.

Where is this proof?
It's certainly not in the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. While it implies that the Thalmor were going to intervene to prevent Ulfric's death at Helgen they didn't have to because Alduin showed up. It explicitly states that "As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off."