Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

[Dagmar]

I'll explain it again in spoiler tags.

Spoiler

The Thalmor's goal is to destroy the "towers" that separate Mundus from Oblivion/Aetherius because they believe that by doing so they will "be with the gods." The Great War wasn't actually about the elves believing that Talos isn't a god, they know he is a god. The very reason they started the war was because they knew. Their goal is to halt the worship of Talos, because by doing so this would make him cease to exist. The Thalmor are using the entire issue of of Talos worship to further their goals. Their first goal is to destroy Talos, which will be accomplished somewhat by making worship illegal. Secondly, it weakens the empire as a whole because it started the civil war.

Only the empire is losing troops in the civil war. The Dominion wants this. They started the civil war by planting Ulfric as a sleeper agent to do just that. If the empire wins the war, the Thalmor gain because the empire lost troops doing it. If the rebels win, the Thalmor gain because the empire lost troops and the entire nation of Skyrim, which is a fatally crippling loss. But the best scenario for the Thalmor is if both sides lose as many men and women as possible, making the empire and skyrim weaker when the next war begins.

The only way to "win" is to minimize the number of casualties and keep the empire as strong as possible. That means NOT losing Skyrim. If the empire loses, the elves win. If the elves win, mundus will be destroyed, because the entire goal of the Thalmor (and thus the Dominions) is to destroy the towers that keep mundus existing away from Oblivion, and by them defeating the empire they will inevitably accomplish that goal.

Thus, if you know all of this, it is impossible in good judgement to side with the rebels, because doing so only furthers the Thalmor goals of weakening the empire and eventually destroying mundus.

The rebellions goal of legalizing Talos worship again is a good one to be sure. However, the moment the Dominion declares war the White-Gold Concordant (which prevents the worship of Talos) will be void, thus assuring Talos worship continues.

Thus, in the war between the empire and the dominion is actually a war between saving and destroying mundus. The dominion already has an advantage on the empire, in order to save mundus everything must be done to strengthen the empire. Even a united empire couldn't win against the dominion the first time. The empire has already lost a significant portion of its power by losing the provinces. The only way to save Mundus is to keep the empire as strong as possible so that it can defeat the dominion and stop the Thalmor from destroying mundus.

Thus, when looking at the BIG picture, especially from the point of view of the Dragonborn (who goes on a quest to save the world, siding with the empire is the only correct choice. Siding with the rebels helps doom the world. Siding with the imperials helps save it.

This has no support in the lore. It's simply a popular theory because it's based on something Michael Kirkbride wrote. Kirkbride is probably the largest and most influential writer/contributor to the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe. However, he was neither an employee of Bethesda nor retained by Bethesda to come up with this portrayal of the Thalmor (Bethesda used him as a freelance writer for the lore after he and the game publisher parted ways many years ago), and it was never been adopted by Bethesda as lore. As such it's nothing more than an interesting observation of where the lore might have gone regarding the Thalmor if Kirkbride was still with Bethesda and overseeing the development of the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe.

EDIT: Also, straight from the horse's mouth

Spoiler

"Fate

Ulfric can be killed during the Civil War if the Dragonborn chooses to side with the Empire. After the Battle for Windhelm, the Dragonborn storms his throne room, and he requests that the Dragonborn will kill him, as "it will make for a better song". Upon death, he can be encountered in Sovngarde as a specter, interestingly regretting his belligerent actions against the Empire due to how it only weakend Skyrim and strengthened the Thalmor"

Taken from elderscrolls.wikia.com

The elderscrolls.wikia.com is an extremely unreliable lore resource and this is a perfect example of why it's so unreliable.

Spoiler

Ulfric's remorse has nothing to do with weakening Skyrim and strengthening the Thalmor. If you go to the actual source (Ulfric in Sovngarde) rather than rely upon a mediocre lore resource like that website you would know that he expresses remorse over the fact that the civil war created an abundance of souls of fallen Nord warriors from both sides wandering the fields of Sovngarde for Alduin to feed upon, empowering Alduin in a manner that wouldn't have been possible if Skyrim was at peace (something which Esbern warns both him and Tullius about during Season Unending). That's the actual reason why he is remorseful for his part in the civil war. It has nothing to do with a non-existent realization that he weakened Skyrim or strengthened the Thalmor.

 

[Dagmar]

And seeing how Ulfric was captured by Elenwen during the war and gave up vital information to the Thalmor...

Without commenting on the overlying argument to this statement, Ulfric was captured by Aldmeri Dominion soldiers during the siege of the Imperial City. Elenwen was assigned as his interrogator but there's nothing in the lore that indicates he ever revealed any vital information to the Thalmor. The only lore resource that I know of for his interrogation is the Thalmor Dossier on him which clearly states that he was deceived into believing that information he provided to them was vital to the capture of the Imperial City. It also clearly indicates that regardless of whether the information he provided would have been useful for the same, it had absolutely no impact on the war as the Imperial City had already fallen by the time he had broken under interrogation, and there's no way that Ulfric could have been privy to any of the Imperial Legion war plans or strategy afterwards.

 

[thatwudbryan]

Theirs nothing to be fair about. The Imperials don't believe in fairness, remember that Even if our characters background is not all that innocent the fact is your name wasn't on the list therefor you shouldn't be waiting in line to be executed with the Stormcloaks. Even Hadvar thought it was wrong. If anything they should've taken you to the prisons to be interrogated by the jailers. The only crime you committed was crossing the boarder... Such crime that earns yourself an execution. While it may not be easy to admit your mistakes it takes a real man to apologize. At least Hadvarmade an effort to apologize while Tullius did absolutely nothing.

And Ulfric and the SC's are the only racists right??? Yeah OKAY whatever you say Mr. Legionaire

 

[Seanu Reaves]

And Ulfric and the SC's are the only racists right??? Yeah OKAY whatever you say Mr. Legionaire

cant tell but your complaining about someone's post that supports your side thinking its Docta? sorry if I missed something

 

[thatwudbryan]

Its ok Ulfric is a Thalmor sleeper agent so it doesn't matter what his personal goals are but can we just mosey away from accusations its much more fun just conversing without getting personal. We all know canon wise the Imperials will likely win... so obviously imperials are right. Right?

Yeah the same 'sleeper agent' that the Thalmor doesn't want to overtake the Empire, why wouldn't they want that???? They are the 'High and Mighty Rulers' known as the Thalmor correct? They must fear Ulfric and his rag-tag group of SC's, the Imperials??? Thalmor thought- "Well, they do have more men, better equipment and more support throughout Tamriel so, yea, I guess they shouldn't win either." Anyone with common sense- "No plops Sherlock"

 

[thatwudbryan]

cant tell but your complaining about someone's post that supports your side thinking its Docta? sorry if I missed something

Not at all, assuming, an Imperial trait I suppose . Read the bold

 

[thatwudbryan]

You say Imperials don't believe in fairness, so it's true?! That's great! While you're at it, could you say the Thalmor are gone and all the dragons are friendly? In all seriousness, there was absolutely nothing in there to back your point. Despite the fact Ulfric is deeply flawed and can loose the CW just as easily, he still tries to set himself up as some fairy tale hero. This man segregates races, has little political tact, and seems to lack any actual plan besides 'kill everyone who disagrees'. Ulfric Stormcoak is as false as the title 'True High King of Skyrim'.

Almost as 'false' as the Imperial Legion in Skyrim letting Talos worshippers die thanks to the Thalmor with their whole 'Well being for all of Skyrim and Tamriel'. Well being huh? Thats why you sit and do nothing right? Imperial supporters: Y U NO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!?!?

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Not at all, assuming, an Imperial trait I suppose . Read the bold

Raijin is on your side. What is highlighted in bold opposes the Legionnares - it says the Imperials are terribly unfair, because all you did was cross the border and the Legions are executing you. This isn't my opinion, just pointing out you disagreed with someone who would agree with you almost wholly.

Just stoppin' in to brighten your day! My opinions been made so I'm on my way!

 

[thatwudbryan]

Raijin is on your side. What is highlighted in bold opposes the Legionnares - it says the Imperials are terribly unfair, because all you did was cross the border and the Legions are executing you. This isn't my opinion, just pointing out you disagreed with someone who would agree with you almost wholly.

Just stoppin' in to brighten your day! My opinions been made so I'm on my way!

Im pointing out thats what the Imperials did to show that racism isn't just Ulfric Stormcloak exclusive, I didn't disagree by any means! Nice rhyme BTW reminding me of Thorin n Co. or something Sorry been readin the Hobbit again to get pumped for the movie

 

[Captain Nagisus]

Im pointing out thats what the Imperials did to show that racism isn't just Ulfric Stormcloak exclusive, I didn't disagree by any means! Nice rhyme BTW reminding me of Thorin n Co. or something Sorry been readin the Hobbit again to get pumped for the movie

Oh right, that makes sense. Oopsie daisy.

 

[FullmetalHeart20]

Let's look at this from another perspective. Ulfric is the catalyst for a war that is weakening humanity. While brothers wage war, everyone else is either indifferent to or benefitting from it. So acknowledging that humans are the only one this war is hurting, what could be done to end it?

 

[thatwudbryan]

Let's look at this from another perspective. Ulfric is the catalyst for a war that is weakening humanity. While brothers wage war, everyone else is either indifferent to or benefitting from it. So acknowledging that humans are the only one this war is hurting, what could be done to end it?

*Looks at other perspective, still see's raging hypocricy* So, from what I'm seeing its ok for the Thalmor to be killing these talos worshipping nords because there racists right? (Just guessing thats why) But if the Thalmor were killing Argonians and Khajiit it'd be terrible right cuz they're cool cat n lizard guys??? Bottomline empire sits down n waits while people die Hoping they'll get some magical help (someone who knows the Thu'um perhaps?) while they're regrouping after a war that even put a dent in the Thalmor same as they, however small it may be. I mean, they fear Ulfric and his SC's, thats a fact, why should they??? They're nobodies, just a shanty group of nords fighting for their land n what they believe in, go down swinging or get trampled under foot <---- Empire's current course of action

 

[Docta Corvina]

All of this talk of the Thalmor slaughtering Talos worshipers left and right really makes me wonder who the hell Heimskr has paid off with protection money.

Truly, he and the Talos statues throughout Skyrim (which by and large seem to remain intact, unless I'm missing multiple occurrences of destruction) and even in some major cities compel a second glance at the whole issue.

 

[thatwudbryan]

All of this talk of the Thalmor slaughtering Talos worshipers left and right really makes me wonder who the hell Heimskr has paid off with protection money.

Truly, he and the Talos statues throughout Skyrim (which by and large seem to remain intact, unless I'm missing multiple occurrences of destruction) and even in some major cities compel a second glance at the whole issue.

Well the Imperials of course! Only they dabble in such shady activity

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well the Imperials of course! Only they dabble in such shady activity

But I thought the evil, unfeeling Imperials didn't care anything at all about protecting Talos worshipers for any reason!

 

[thatwudbryan]

But I thought the evil, unfeeling Imperials didn't care anything at all about protecting Talos worshipers for any reason!

Money talks in All realms of life, real or fictional The empire being payed off by talos worshipping nords to keep hush hush from the Thalmor for their benefit? Sounds Imperial-like to me, dancing with the devil while they earn some coin before their inevitable deaths come courtesy of their Thalmor 'allies'. Seems legit to me, if I were an Imperial

 

[Docta Corvina]

Money talks in All realms of life, real or fictional The empire being payed off by talos worshipping nords to keep hush hush from the Thalmor for their benefit? Sounds Imperial-like to me, dancing with the devil while they earn some coin before their inevitable deaths come courtesy of their Thalmor 'allies'. Seems legit to me, if I were an Imperial

LOL, I could see some people taking advantage of that. That's how life works. But I honestly don't see Heimskr as one of them. He seems, I dunno, much too proud to even consider it. Even Balgruuf doesn't stop him or shut him down and Balgruuf's considered an Imperial ally (even if not an overenthusiastic one). So, there's something else going on here. If anything, if shows that the situation is hardly black and white - which is a recurring theme with this game.

 

[thatwudbryan]

LOL, I could see some people taking advantage of that. That's how life works. But I honestly don't see Heimskr as one of them. He seems, I dunno, much too proud to even consider it. Even Balgruuf doesn't stop him or shut him down and Balgruuf's considered an Imperial ally (even if not an overenthusiastic one). So, there's something else going on here. If anything, if shows that the situation is hardly black and white - which is a recurring theme with this game.

Thats because Balgruuf is a true nord who wants best for his people and can actually think rationally. Only thing that makes me cringe when going Stormcloak, Vignar is an ignorant senile fool of a jarl. N yes indeed-e, no 100% right or wrong on either side, both misguided in one way or other but I'll take the guys who stand up and take action

 

[Docta Corvina]

Thats because Balgruuf is a true nord who wants best for his people and can actually think rationally. Only thing that makes me cringe when going Stormcloak, Vignar is an ignorant senile fool of a jarl. N yes indeed-e, no 100% right or wrong on either side, both misguided in one way or other but I'll take the guys who stand up and take action

Well, at least we can agree that Balgruuf is a badass.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Yeah the same 'sleeper agent' that the Thalmor doesn't want to overtake the Empire, why wouldn't they want that???? They are the 'High and Mighty Rulers' known as the Thalmor correct? They must fear Ulfric and his rag-tag group of SC's, the Imperials??? Thalmor thought- "Well, they do have more men, better equipment and more support throughout Tamriel so, yea, I guess they shouldn't win either." Anyone with common sense- "No pl*** Sherlock"

Thalmor are proven to give support to the Stormcloaks. They do not fear they support the weakening of the real threat of the Empire... and please keep it civil... even if we are having an argument no need to spout wrong info and be a jerk about it my friend.