Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

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thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
To me Tullius strikes me as a guy who really don't want to be in Skyrim. Hes a miserable old man. He has no real morals. He doesn't apologize to you for attempting to kill you as the executioner was inches away of cutting off your head. He instead says it in the most sarcastic way, enough that you want to bash his face in with your fists. It takes a real man to admit his mistakes... not Tullius. He doesn't care at all.

I too played the Imperial side, and let me tell you this I'm glad this is just a game, and not RL. I'm glad I'm much more knowledgeable that I was back on my first game play. Seeing the final approach (Battle of Solitude and Windhelm) on both sides I'm actually more impressed with Ulfric than Tullius. Ulfric refuses to surrender, and would rather die for what he truly believes in while Tullius cracks up, and wanted to surrender to the Stormcloaks. Is it no wonder the Empire is so fluffed up. No wonder is falling apart.
Thats the way I see/saw it and is why I support the SC's with their flaws n all, they've got that stuff inside of them that the imperials seem to lack, heart. As for him not apologizing for the whole beggining sequence I honestly could have cared less, both Tulius and Ulfric are to arrogant and prideful (yes an imperial is arrogant n prideful) to do such a thing I already knew that. IMO Ulfric just has all the redeeming qualities of a natural leader, Heart, Charisma, Prowess on the battlefield and most importantly stands for what he believes in. While the empire sits down n waits
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
If Hadvar was a General and Rikke was his legate then I would be more then happy to be on the Imperial side. If Hadvar replaced Tullius as General, I wouldn't think he would put up with such atrocious behavior like the captain bitch. He would actually go on by what is right. He actually showed concern as your name wasn't on the list. He showed concern to your well-being.

Hadvar - Real man that apologizes to you (If you follow him )
Tullius - Not a real man who refuses to apologizes... instead makes a sarcastic remark.
 

Janus3003

Skyrim Marriage Counselor
standalone
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
If you're people are part of a rebellion that involves them, specifically, all other races become potential enemies. The segregation is tactical, not racial hatred based. I'm sorry you don't understand that.
No it's not. The Dunmer's segregation to the Gray Quarter predates Ulfric's ascension to Jarl of Eastmarch at least to the time of his father's rule and probably even earlier. It has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with the xenophobia that can occur when there is a rapid change in the racial composition of a settlement arising from the mass emigration of refugees

There's nothing to indicate that the Stormcloaks or Ulfric believe that the Dunmer are a potential threat. If he truly believed they were a potential threat he would inter them like the US did to its Japanese American citizens instead of letting them freely roam about the city. It's not as if they'll do any less damage if they're a potential threat simply because they have to sleep in the Gray Quarter. Aside from the lore, and the preceding point making your conclusion incorrect and illogical respectively, there's also the fact that Altmers (Nurelion and Niranye) aren't segregated at all even though the Thalmor are Altmers. No one in Windhelm shows the slightest concern that they might be a security risk. All of this is why your argument that the segregation is tactical and not motivated by racism, albeit manifesting in a rather mild form of racism, is a sham.

I do agree that the segregation of the Dunmer shouldn't be decisive as to whether you choose to join the Imperial Legion instead of the Stormcloaks. There are bigger issues going on and I view the segregation of the Dunmer as Bethesda's attempt to make Ulfric something more than a one-dimensional angelic savior of Skyrim. It's not presented to portray him as some kind of harsh hardcore racist notwithstanding that some players react to it like he is.

Among the reasons that the racism issue gets argued so hard in these kinds of threads is because some Imperial Legion advocates act like the segregation of the Dunmer is a much bigger deal than it actually is while some advocates for joining the Stormcloaks refuse to even acknowledge that there is segregation in Windhelm or, alternatively, refuse to believe that race based segregation, even if only limited to where one can reside, is still a form of racism however relatively minor it may be. I think that some of the same Stormcloak advocates feel that if their character joins Ulfric and the Stormcloaks that particular aspect of his character, if acknowledged, however minor it may be, will somehow magically rub off on not only their character but themselves, forcing them to view either as racist which really doesn't follow at all. The overdramatic perspective of the aforementioned Imperial Legion advocates only exacerbates that concern by the other players and goads them into making some of the rather absurd arguments that I've read in threads like this.

When I joined the Stormcloaks my character didn't transform into a cheerleader for idiots like Rolff Stone-Fist. She did it because regardless of how things escalated to their current status, the only way the Thalmor Justiciars were going to be stopped and ejected from Skyrim in her lifetime is if the Stormcloaks take control of Skyrim. Would I have liked to have a better option than Ulfric to get the job done? Perhaps, but you take what's given to you to accomplish what my character believed was an important objective and he's the only means the game provides for my character to end the Thalmor's rampage in Skyrim even if he's largely responsible for it. Perhaps the most satisfying thing about concluding the Stormcloak campaign is that it has one of the most visible and permanent consequences in the game. The Thalmor disappear from Skyrim which is irrefutable proof that the Stormcloaks eject the Thalmor from Skyrim once they control it ending their reign of terror within the province (although it's also one of the many reasons I generally don't even engage the Civil War questlines because I like killing Thalmor :p).
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I wonder if my game is glitched as far as the Thalmor officers and all of that. I can't recall once ever witnessing a group of Thalmor with a prisoner after I finished the Imperial side of the questline. :confused: I know I certainly did before I formally took a side. But not after. I realize this makes no real sense nor am I claiming that it should, and it's probably just the luck of the randomized events in the game. But it is quite curious. I, like many others, would love to find them so I can dispense justice on behalf of the Legion. :D

While the Thalmor disappearing from Skyrim would of course be a most welcome thing and goal realized after playing the other questline, part of me has to wonder to myself what they've got up their sleeve with that story-wise. Unless it's a coding oversight/anomaly, which is considerably unlikely. Though I do still wonder what the point is of invincible officers of the Imperial/Stormcloak camps... In any event, no, my paranoid mind envisions something from the Thalmor along the lines of, "Well, that went well - on to the next! Your move, Empire!" and then proceed to start stirring up some nonsense in High Rock or maybe even in Cyrodiil itself. Though I know that exceeds the immediate scope and context of the present game, it seems to me that it doesn't at the same time. Blame my eagerness to RP this thing out to great lengths, but it's a concern I have. For that reason, it'll be very interesting to see where it all goes next.

Regarding the racist angle, it's certainly true that there's more going on besides the Dunmer segregation in Windhelm. There's more to side with the Empire for than that. In fact, I think relegating support to merely that point alone or as the most significant focus is doing the Empire a disservice. Ulfric is clearly a polarizing figure and he's got quite a bit to answer for. I agree that the situation in his city is meant to cast him in a less clear-cut light. I think it's obvious both sides are characterized in such a way, with an effort on the part of Bethesda to bestow the process of player alliance with that much more complexity - and it's brilliant. All of these threads (which I enjoy) have continued to demonstrate as much with their interminable and often very circular debate structures. I'll readily admit that the racism, mild as it may well be, leaves me with a resounding emotional impression. I also readily acknowledge it could be much, much worse in terms of associated violence. And at the end of the day, it's but a bullet point in the overall case against Ulfric.

As I posted a few pages back, characters like Ralof emerge as far more ideal representatives of the Stormcloak side, merely for the fact they don't appear racially hostile or vainglorious, and seem to be most focused on doing what they believe is immediately best for their people. If a man like Ralof was at the forefront of the campaign, I do think we would have seen a very different set of player attitudes (from those who side Imperial and even among those who side Stormcloak). I think Hadvar and Ralof were created and placed to do what perhaps the higher-ups, the brass, couldn't necessarily do completely - and that is to further humanize the conflict, from an "everyman" perspective. The statements you hear from both of them on their respective sides offer a window into some of the most basic reasoning for joining either side, particularly as Nords. And in that way, Hadvar and Ralof represent two sides of the same coin, not unlike many aspects of the Empire and the Rebellion.

I do believe it does come down to the manner of which many of us choose to RP our characters and while facts are and will remain stubborn things, it's fascinating to see what people do with it all. I'm writing a lengthy work of fanfiction detailing certain aspects of the Skyrim experience from the point of view of a devoted Legionnaire. And even though the classic reasons for such allegiance are conveyed, the complexities that are a part of the overall conflict and the undercurrents of the broader struggle with the Dominion and all of the implications thereof are things that have given me an expanded perspective. No one character or faction is totally cut and dry - not even all members of the Thalmor are created equally, in my eccentric authorial opinion :p - and there's nothing like complications and troubling details for both sides to drive that point home.

Of course the Empire and Skyrim have had different experiences with Dominion confrontations, with Cyrodiil's endured hell of the Great War, and now Skyrim's subjection to Thalmor activity. Such experiences obviously inform the philosophical and perhaps even moral contexts each side is operating within circa 4E 201. The common realization that the present course is unsustainable for an indeterminate amount of time is in turn a simultaneous call to action, ie. the Stormcloaks rejecting the Imperials to expel the Thalmor and the Empire reining in rebels and stopping an undesirable reallocation of resources assumed for future conflict. I would hope that we will see some sort of content to bridge the gap between ES V and the next specifically relating to the Thalmor/Dominion and their continued belligerent presence.

Hell, even if the Empire is canonically dissolved at some point in the overall story, there's nothing to stop it (if Beth wills) from having a, "'The line was broken!' ... 'It has been remade!'" type of Aragorn moment with a player character. And a fractured former Empire is slowly re-rallied (and perhaps even roughly reforged?) to a common cause. To me, it's definitely a possibility.

...Hmm, don't wanna stray too much from the specific topic, so I'll stop here. :p
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
To me Tullius strikes me as a guy who really don't want to be in Skyrim. Hes a miserable old man. He has no real morals. He doesn't apologize to you for attempting to kill you as the executioner was inches away of cutting off your head. He instead says it in the most sarcastic way, enough that you want to bash his face in with your fists. It takes a real man to admit his mistakes... not Tullius. He doesn't care at all.

I too played the Imperial side, and let me tell you this I'm glad this is just a game, and not RL. I'm glad I'm much more knowledgeable that I was back on my first game play. Seeing the final approach (Battle of Solitude and Windhelm) on both sides I'm actually more impressed with Ulfric than Tullius. Ulfric refuses to surrender, and would rather die for what he truly believes in while Tullius cracks up, and wanted to surrender to the Stormcloaks. Is it no wonder the Empire is so fluffed up. No wonder is falling apart.
Well, to be fair, it's not easy to admit you nearly got an innocent killed (if your backstory is innocent at all). It's very human to attempt to ignore mistakes like that, and Tullius is a very human character. Ulfric attempts to come off as some grand hero, even though he dies the same if you side against him. I believed Tullius's reaction was more realistic, even if not the most heroic.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Well, to be fair, it's not easy to admit you nearly got an innocent killed (if your backstory is innocent at all). It's very human to attempt to ignore mistakes like that, and Tullius is a very human character. Ulfric attempts to come off as some grand hero, even though he dies the same if you side against him. I believed Tullius's reaction was more realistic, even if not the most heroic.

Theirs nothing to be fair about. The Imperials don't believe in fairness, remember that :) Even if our characters background is not all that innocent the fact is your name wasn't on the list therefor you shouldn't be waiting in line to be executed with the Stormcloaks. Even Hadvar thought it was wrong. If anything they should've taken you to the prisons to be interrogated by the jailers. The only crime you committed was crossing the boarder... Such crime that earns yourself an execution. While it may not be easy to admit your mistakes it takes a real man to apologize. At least Hadvarmade an effort to apologize while Tullius did absolutely nothing.

So the next time I met up with Tullius with Ulfric and Galmar by my side in Solitude I was like:

The irony about the whole thing is that the Imperials in Skyrim doesn't seem to know their own set of laws, or refuse to enforce them. You see an Imperial law is being broken right there in Solitude (Including Markarth), and the guards and General Tullius isn't doing nothing about it. The law breaker suspect in solitude is Noster Eagle-Eye, the Imperial war veteran. His crime is vagrancy. According to the lore is any act of idleness, disorder, begging, or conduct unbecoming a person with occupation, gold, or a home, (or occupation, gold, and a home, or occupation or gold and home, or occupation and gold or home, or occupation and home or gold), or what a reasonable person would consider idle, disorderly, beggarly, or unbecoming. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...The law breaker suspect in solitude is Noster Eagle-Eye, the Imperial war veteran. His crime is vagrancy....
Noster is a beggar. Generally speaking beggars have neither occupation, gold nor a home. It's actually a rather odd legal definition of vagrancy given that it's a crime usually attributed to beggars. Also there's a big difference between not enforcing a law like vagrancy and not knowing about it. The police in my city ignore vagrancy law violations all the time because they realize the futility of incarcerating a homeless person, the pointlessness of assessing a fine against the homeless, and because they're not devoid of compassion for the plight of the homeless.

Kindness-Helps.jpg

20215005_BG1.jpg
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
You say Imperials don't believe in fairness, so it's true?! That's great! While you're at it, could you say the Thalmor are gone and all the dragons are friendly? In all seriousness, there was absolutely nothing in there to back your point. Despite the fact Ulfric is deeply flawed and can loose the CW just as easily, he still tries to set himself up as some fairy tale hero. This man segregates races, has little political tact, and seems to lack any actual plan besides 'kill everyone who disagrees'. Ulfric Stormcoak is as false as the title 'True High King of Skyrim'.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Noster is a beggar. Generally speaking beggars have neither occupation, gold nor a home. It's actually a rather odd legal definition of vagrancy given that it's a crime usually attributed to beggars. Also there's a big difference between not enforcing a law like vagrancy and not knowing about it. The police in my city ignore vagrancy law violations all the time because they realize the futility of incarcerating a homeless person, the pointlessness of assessing a fine against the homeless, and because they're not devoid of compassion for the plight of the homeless.

It maybe an odd legal definition of vagrancy, but that's what was written in the lore located at Legal Basics | The Imperial Library. You can't denied that :) You mean to tell me that General Tullius don't know the Imperial law? And that he doesn't tell his men to enforce it? The horse thief is right... the Empire is lazy... that's why theirs a Thalmor problem in Skyrim. All thanks to a lazy empire that doesn't enforce the very same laws that they implemented.

You say Imperials don't believe in fairness, so it's true?! That's great! While you're at it, could you say the Thalmor are gone and all the dragons are friendly? In all seriousness, there was absolutely nothing in there to back your point. Despite the fact Ulfric is deeply flawed and can loose the CW just as easily, he still tries to set himself up as some fairy tale hero. This man segregates races, has little political tact, and seems to lack any actual plan besides 'kill everyone who disagrees'. Ulfric Stormcoak is as false as the title 'True High King of Skyrim'.

I do back up my stuffs. It's people like you who refuses to accept it... in spite of me providing facts. It's not my fault. And you seem to believe that what Ulfric is doing, by segregating a race in his hold, is far worst than what the Imperial legion in Skyrim are doing.

Yeah tell me more on how evil and how mad Ulfric is ;)
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
It maybe an odd legal definition of vagrancy, but that's what was written in the lore located at Legal Basics | The Imperial Library.
You're not getting it. The law qualifies vagrancy by saying that it can only be committed by those who have any combination of occupation, home and gold, and beggars generally don't have any of those. I said it was odd because it appears to exempt the very people one would expect to be the focus of the law.
You mean to tell me that General Tullius don't know the Imperial law? And that he doesn't tell his men to enforce it?
Learn to read. I said that there's a big difference between not knowing the law and electing not to enforce it. I never said anything about Tullius telling the Imperial Legion not to enforce a law because the Imperial Legion doesn't police Solitude, the Solitude City Guards do that which is why Tullius and the Imperial Legion don't even factor into the equation.
The horse thief is right... the Empire is lazy... that's why theirs a Thalmor problem in Skyrim. All thanks to a lazy empire that doesn't enforce the very same laws that they implemented.
The fact that your transparent bias has so warped your perceptions that you don't even understand the difference between compassion and practicality versus laziness and can't differentiate between the Solitude City Guard and the Imperial Legion simply underscores why your argument is full of fantastic fail.

8275500627_727688d312_b.jpg
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
You're not getting it. The law qualifies vagrancy by saying that it can only be committed by those who have any combination of occupation, home and gold, and beggars generally don't have any of those. I said it was odd because it appears to exempt the very people one would expect to be the focus of the law.

You're not getting it either. Under Imperial laws under vagrancy you are not allowed to beg. Let me c/p it again so you can read it again. I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.

Any act of idleness, disorder, begging, or conduct unbecoming a person with occupation, gold, or a home, (or occupation, gold, and a home, or occupation or gold and home, or occupation and gold or home, or occupation and home or gold), or what a reasonable person would consider idle, disorderly, beggarly, or unbecoming. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.

Learn to read. I said that there's a big difference between not knowing the law and electing not to enforce it. I never said anything about Tullius telling the Imperial Legion not to enforce a law because the Imperial Legion doesn't police Solitude, the Solitude City Guards do that which is why Tullius and the Imperial Legion don't even factor into the equation.

Practice what you preach before you tell people to learn how to read. Actually the Imperial legion plays a big factor in Solitude. Captain Aldis (An Imperial Solider) is head of the guards of solitude. He is seen training guards (Not wearing the typical imperial legion uniform) to become Imperial legionaries. If he sees you wearing a Stormcloak armor he angrily yells at you with : "What do you think you're doing, walking around, dressed like a damned Stormcloak traitor?" If you reply back with "I'm a proud supporter of Ulfric Stormcloak. What of it?" he responds with "Is that right? We'll show you how the Legion deals with rebel scum like you." A 40 gold bounty will be added to Haafingar and Aldis and the guards will start attacking you.

The fact that your transparent bias has so warped your perceptions that you don't even understand the difference between compassion and practicality versus laziness and can't differentiate between the Solitude City Guard and the Imperial Legion simply underscores why your argument is full of fantastic fail.

Oh please spare me the "I'm smarter then you are" lecture. I'm not interested in these type of lectures from you. You honestly can't stand people not having the same thinking pattern as you do, and so you start having kittens. Deal with it.

by the way I'm not actually bias... just that theirs nothing positive to be said about the Imperials in Skyrim.
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
You're not getting it either. Under Imperial laws under vagrancy you are not allowed to beg. Let me c/p it again so you can read it again. I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.

Any act of idleness, disorder, begging, or conduct unbecoming a person with occupation, gold, or a home, (or occupation, gold, and a home, or occupation or gold and home, or occupation and gold or home, or occupation and home or gold), or what a reasonable person would consider idle, disorderly, beggarly, or unbecoming. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.

It's quite hilarious reading this and observing you not even understand the definition you are trying to push here. Let me make it more clear for you:

"Any act of idleness, disorder, begging or conduct unbecoming a person WITH (keyword, pay attention to this) occupation, gold, or a home..."

Those beggars don't have a home or a job and clearly they don't have money so according to your own definition and the Imperial's definition, they cannot be arrested and fined for vagrancy if that's the only thing they can do in the first place. Good stuff though, Raijin, defeated yourself once again.

Its quite evident you're losing material when your trying to rip at the Empire for not arresting beggars.

by the way I'm not actually bias... just that theirs nothing positive to be said about the Imperials in Skyrim.

If there is one thing you've been throughout this entire thread, its bias. I'm not trying to attack you but don't pretend like you're not. Making excuses/justifying racism, petty beefs with Imperials (I.E the Captain), avoiding issues, going on some rambling about nothing to change the focus of the thread, all in an attempt to defend the Stormcloaks ... its all bias, dude.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Its quite evident your losing material when your trying to rip at the Empire for not arresting beggars.

THIS. The Empire really is 'damned if it does, damned if it doesn't' with some people. Because they lash out at the very fact that the Imperials were "lazy" like the horse thief said. "Laziness" that afforded devoted worshipers of Talos to do so clandestinely (read: privately, in their homes) and without repercussion for some time.

Yet the same people are willing to throw even that back in the Empire's face while at the same time attacking them for the stepped up Thalmor patrols (good job, Ulfric!) that followed a period of Imperial "laziness" and laxity of enforcement of the Talos clause of the Concordat.

w6pp3.gif
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
It's quite hilarious reading this and observing you not even understand the definition you are trying to push here. Let me make it more clear for you:

"Any act of idleness, disorder, begging or conduct unbecoming a person WITH (keyword, pay attention to this) occupation, gold, or a home..."

Those beggars don't have a home or a job and clearly they don't have money so according to your own definition and the Imperial's definition, they cannot be arrested and fined for vagrancy if that's the only thing they can do in the first place. Good stuff though, Raijin, defeated yourself once again.

Its quite evident you're losing material when your trying to rip at the Empire for not arresting beggars.

It's quite hilarious that you forgot to add a comma (which the lore has) after begging. But that's OK everyone makes mistakes. Were all humans after all. Nice try of adding stuffs that's not there in the lore.

com·ma
/ˈkämə/
Noun

A punctuation mark (,) indicating a pause between parts of a sentence. It is also used to separate items in a list and to mark the place...
A minute interval or difference of pitch.

Again I don't know how to make it any more clearer then I've already put it.

If there is one thing you've been throughout this entire thread, its bias. I'm not trying to attack you but don't pretend like you're not. Making excuses/justifying racism, petty beefs with Imperials (I.E the Captain), avoiding issues, going on some rambling about nothing to change the focus of the thread, all in an attempt to defend the Stormcloaks ... its all bias, dude.


I've never played any other the other Elders Scroll games before. When I first played Skyrim I was a novice. I was a noob; a fresh mind. My first character was an Imperial who went with the Imperials (Base on his race) and when I created my second character I decided to go with the Stormcloaks. For each other character that I created I started seeing things that drove me away from the Empire. While Ulfric may have have some flaws (Like the segregation) whats more important is the fact that The empire in Skyrim is murdering people who's names aren't even on the list... and the soldiers are killing families.

An addition I'm certain I'm not the only one being "biased" on this thread.
 

Seanu Reaves

The Shogun of Gaming
Its ok Ulfric is a Thalmor sleeper agent so it doesn't matter what his personal goals are :D but can we just mosey away from accusations its much more fun just conversing without getting personal. We all know canon wise the Imperials will likely win... so obviously imperials are right. Right?
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
It's quite hilarious that you forgot to add a comma (which the lore has) after begging. But that's OK everyone makes mistakes. Were all humans after all. Nice try of adding stuffs that's not there in the lore.

com·ma
/ˈkämə/
Noun

A punctuation mark (,) indicating a pause between parts of a sentence. It is also used to separate items in a list and to mark the place...
A minute interval or difference of pitch.

Again I don't know how to make it any more clearer then I've already put it.

Okay now I think your purposely being stupid. "It is also used to perpetrate items in a list and to mark the place.."

"Any act of (start of list) idleness, disorder, begging, or conduct (end of list, note commas) unbecoming a person WITH (keyword, pay attention to this) occupation, gold, or a home..." (notice how the word "with" never left the sentence)

From my understanding of English, in this particular sentence, one may choose to use a comma in front of "or" or not. I chose to omit it but implying that it changes the sentence in anyway and trying to lowblow me with some grammar criticisms (that are wrong in the first place, lol) is pretty weak, bro.

I don't know whether to cry or laugh at your response
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Practice what you preach before you tell people to learn how to read. Actually the Imperial legion plays a big factor in Solitude. Captain Aldis (An Imperial Solider) is head of the guards of solitude. He is seen training guards (Not wearing the typical imperial legion uniform) to become Imperial legionaries.
Captain Aldis may be with the Imperial Legion but regarding his responsibilities with the Solitude Guards he answers to Jarl Elisif not General Tullius. In addition my allusion to your failure to read is that you failed to even grasp that I never said Tullius doesn't know the law or that he told his men to ignore it. Coupled with your inability to distinguish the Solitude Guards from the Imperial Legion, the observation that you need to learn to read still stands.
Oh please spare me the "I'm smarter then you are" lecture. I'm not interested in these type of lectures from you. You honestly can't stand people not having the same thinking pattern as you do, and so you start having kittens. Deal with it.
Yes this is your typical evasive response whenever I say something that is accurate about what you said and you have nothing with which to counter. Whenever you can't refute something you simply avoid addressing it entirely with hollow meaningless responses like this one. At least you're consistent. :rolleyes:
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
From my understanding of English, in this particular sentence, one may choose to use a comma in front of "or" or not. I chose to omit it but implying that it changes the sentence in anyway and trying to lowblow me with some grammar criticisms (that are wrong in the first place, lol) is pretty weak, bro.
While it is laughable that one of the forum poster boys for fail in spelling, grammar and syntax would mock anyone else's omission of a punctuation mark in a quotation, his interpretation makes more sense, i.e. reading it as a listing where the fourth category is conduct unbecoming a person who, basically, isn't a beggar. As I posted before, my initial reading and yours makes the law a bit pointless.

It's still really stupid to point to the law on vagrancy and the existence of beggars in the city as if it's some sort of smoking gun that General Tullius either doesn't know Imperial Law or is too lazy to enforce it. It's completely meaningless as the Imperial Legion generally isn't responsible for enforcing the law in Skyrim and especially not petty offenses like vagrancy.
 

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