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Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by Nordic Vampire Lord, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. Janus3003

    Janus3003 Skyrim Marriage Counselor

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    Raijin... I.... I don't know what to say....

    My point wasn't that the situations were identical, but similar. Your people dying and your civilization crumbling would be torture for the Empire, just as thumbscrews make Ulfric cry.
     
  2. Ned

    Ned Nerevarine

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    Nope. You attempted to burn down my opinion by comparing Ulfric to Hitler. It was stupid, and now you feel stupid. That's why we don't try to parallel fantasy with reality.



    It was a stupid paragraph. It had not a single point and contained a ludicrous comparison. It was impossible to even respond to. That's how dumb it was. Still, I did not make a personal insult. You seem to be insistent on going that route, however.



    The Imperials are in treaty and agreement with the Thalmor Justicars, and will willingly watch them drag off and torture nords. That's a fact. The imperials turned cloak, though they may hate themselves for it.
     
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  3. Mr.Self Destruct

    Mr.Self Destruct Chosen Undead

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    Raijin, while the Empire was able to retake the Imperial City they were in no condition to continue the fight. As successful as the Battle of the Red Ring was, it was extremely costly. And took what was left of the Empire's wavering strength. While both sides were ravaged, the Aldmeri had pushed the Imperials; quite literally, to the wall. The Thalmor had forced them out of nearly the entire province, and at the end, only the Imperial City was left standing.

    Know that the Emperor fought in this war, and saw first hand the devastation brought upon his people and land. People were being slaughtered, systematically mass murdered. Cities were burned and sacked. He knew that it had to end, and that an armistice would give them the time and resources to spring back from the brink.

    It's similar to Ulfric's case, as both of them were pushed towards the edge and gave in for the sole purpose of self preservation. The difference is that Ulfric; despite being lead to believe the info he gave up lead to the initial sacking of the Imperial City, tells nobody about what happened. He keeps it in the dark.
     
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  4. Mr.Self Destruct

    Mr.Self Destruct Chosen Undead

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    Does it comfort you to completely deny my argument all together in favor of calling me stupid? Can you deny that the Gray Quarter in some ways resembles a ghetto and Ulfric's motives for the segregation similar to Hitler's? And I'm going by what you said here, that Ulfric segregates because outsiders are a threat. Is that not why Hitler did away with Communists and other undesirables? Because he considered them a threat to him?
    Yet you are still unable to disprove it, I also like how what set you off here is me calling your opinion uneducated and fallacious yet here you are defending your right to call my own opinions stupid. Go figure.


    That's a lot different than chopping the heads off themselves.
     
  5. Ned

    Ned Nerevarine

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    You don't have an argument. It is wrong to segregate the dunmer in Windhelm, but it is not a racial atrocity. You abandoned any meaningful conversation when you threw out "Hitler". I'm sorry if you can't understand that. It's that same reason I ignore people that can only draw arguments from hyperbole or long past, irrelevant events.


    But you didn't give a legitimate opinion. You gave an inane, insensible comparison and a few of bold, unfounded statements. Again, you fail to understand what a legitimate comparison is.




    Not at all. An accomplice is just as guilty...
     
  6. Docta Corvina

    Docta Corvina Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting to see such exceptions when they appear! For me, it all was a completely blank slate. I barely had any idea of what the game was even about when I got it, admittedly. I'd never played any ES games prior and I mostly was drawn to the idea of such a massive open world RPG structure to run around in. I've always favored RPGs and action games, and the promise that Skyrim would blend both genres seamlessly sold me. I continue to be quite glad that the boyfriend surprised me with the game.

    I think also for me, being a student of Roman history, I was drawn to the Imperials in that regard. Their aesthetic was intriguing and alluring, and I was interested to see just how it all would unfold from that side. First impressions are usually the most lasting and I'll admit I didn't take too well to Ulfric from the start. Something about him rubbed me the completely wrong way and I wanted to stay far removed from him and everything bearing his name.

    Again, it's very interesting to hear from people who have played through a huge swathe of the series, especially when they side with the Stormcloaks. When I've spoken to others, there is a certain nostalgia detectable and a true desire to support the Empire despite the state of Tamriel currently. It just reminds me of how emotional the series has been for so many and it lights a fire under my butt to continue acquiring the older games and playing them as soon as possible.

    I agree (and I believe most Imperial supporters would too) that the Thalmor needs to go - it and the Dominion. As I always say, no one likes the Thalmor except the Thalmor, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Obviously the Stormcloaks speak boldly of the day when the Thalmor will be routed, but truly the Imperial NPCs will speak just as candidly at times of their disgust with the overall circumstances and in a very similar vein. Tullius apparently even confirms in "Season Unending" that the present conflict in Skyrim is but "an interlude" before the next showdown with the Thalmor, lamenting the loss and rerouting of resources (in Skyrim's civil war) for such an undertaking. It's something that the Nords in the Legion are certainly cognisant of, and they make it part of their stated raison d'ĂȘtre in the Imperial army. No one enthusiastically, lovingly, embraces the terms of the Concordat (except the Thalmor). But the existence of multiple vantage points on it all is quite clear.

    It's true, things could be outright violent and pervasively so in Windhelm when it comes to the treatment of the Dunmer. I have to wonder, though, just how close things are to that point at the time we encounter the city. Once again, it seems like Ulfric is a character who could have had much more pointing in his favor if he wasn't designed to be such a problematic figure. I could see him having had tried to foster goodwill and curry favor among the Dunmer years ago, when he first took over as Jarl - cynical or not, a politically minded individual like him would know the kind of fruit that could bear over time and it's interesting to me that he is essentially written to own the current situation in Windhelm. But there is nothing to suggest that he attempted as much. Even though he didn't start the policy, he's enforced it with no indication of rescinding it. And that by itself speaks to his character in a variety of ways. Even though I really don't like him, I do find him fascinating.

    Indeed, as much as I may disagree, I too appreciate insight from people who side Stormcloak because it is good to be aware of the arguments to both sides. I'm fairly stubborn as it is, but the researcher that I am likes to be informed as much as possible. And talking with people on here tends to make me dig and redig into the lore for relevant information, as well as reconsider things I've seen in the game. It's a beneficial activity, methinks.
     
  7. Ned

    Ned Nerevarine

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    I've had too much drink and feel too much fatigue to continue this debate, this evening. I've mostly enjoyed the interaction, despite some unpleasant statements.

    I will say that it's unfortunate that Morrowind was largely ignored when it was current. When it was current, it truly dwarfed Oblivion and even outdid Skyrim. It was a true, unadulterated, single-player RPG experience.
     
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  8. Mr.Self Destruct

    Mr.Self Destruct Chosen Undead

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    Clearly there is an argument here, and still you assume that I'm essentially saying Ulfric is a parallel to Hitler. When you said Ulfric segregates the Dunmer as they are a potential threat, (a wild and unfounded accusation in its own right.) While not the same, the laws in place and; going by your post, are similar to Nazi Germany. While not as extreme, Hitler also had the attitude that outsiders are threats.

    No, Ulfric did not want to conquer Tamriel. No, he doesn't have a moustache. No, he isn't exterminating undesirables in droves. Yes, however, he is segregating whom he considers potential threats.

     
  9. Raijin

    Raijin A Mage that loves a Templar

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    Here's a heart to prove my love bro ;)

    [​IMG]

    I don't see the similarities. One was forced into giving up valuable information through torturous methods and other one made a piss poor decision to give up in spite of a great achievement of getting back the city, and capturing the leader. People are dying because of what Mede did.
     
  10. Jersey Dagmar

    Jersey Dagmar Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!

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    Racist Ulfric.png
     
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  11. Deamon

    Deamon New Member

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    I think Ulfric will be a fine first emperor of the new Skyrim Empire so i sided with him
     
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  12. Mr.Self Destruct

    Mr.Self Destruct Chosen Undead

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    ROFLMFAO

    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
     
  13. Gowsh

    Gowsh Old Fart

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    I don't have access to a lore site here at work for the exact words, but once, when I was walking north out of Windhelm on the road across the river, a plaque on the side of the road well north of the city got my attention.

    Basically, it was the Skyrim equivalent of "Give me your poor, your downtrodden, your tired masses yearning to be free; etc." from the time when Red Mountain went up and refugee Dunmer were on the roads in large numbers.

    I couldn't help but stop and consider the current situation in Windhem and Skyrim in general, wondering where the train got off the tracks.

    Great game.
     
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  14. thatwudbryan

    thatwudbryan yet another skyrim enthusiast

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    He was singled out and forced by means of torture and threatened by means of death. The Empire is an empire, more than one person, with many many supporters to pick up the torch if their commanders, generals, kings whatever were to fall. Ulfric stands for what he believes in, the imperials folded and are hoping on hope that this treaty will hold long enough for them to regroup. Meanwhile in that time innocent and/or brave and strong men n women alike are being killed for worshipping a god (one who founded the Empire, yes?) and the imperials sayin "nothing we can do, must wait while innocents die". Thats were Ulfric comes in n basically says that he isn't having it, n would rather go down swinging for his people knowing his cause is just. Misguided and narrow-minded, yes, heartfelt and true to the cause, YES. Can't compare an Empire to one man, although it is flatterring I suppose
     
  15. Jersey Dagmar

    Jersey Dagmar Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!

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    And yet, Ulfric is playing right into the hands of the Thalmor by his little temper tantrum. As well as causing the Empire to not only have to focus on re-grouping, but having to deal with the Civil War in Skyrim. Bottom line? Ulfric isn't helping anyone, well besides himself.
     
  16. Janus3003

    Janus3003 Skyrim Marriage Counselor

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    You don't have to strike at an individual's body to torture them. Striking at their loved ones or people is also a form of torture.
    And it's getting his people killed. He can practice his religion in secret very easily and aid the efforts to regroup and thwart the Thalmor, but no, his actions have forced the Thalmor's hand.

    Raijin, I've... I've taken a vaccine so as to not catch the gay. It... there can never be anything between us.
    I'm sorry, friend.
     
  17. thatwudbryan

    thatwudbryan yet another skyrim enthusiast

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    Well in all fairness, I'd hope for someone to show some sort of emotion and action for their brothers and sisters being killed over worshipping a god. Thats the difference between Ulfric and the empire, they've become weak and submissve to the Actual enemy and are thinking they can regroup while their own slowy perish because of the whole Talos = you die BS. (Who BTW, are more than likely the brawn n balls the empire would need to take down the Thalmor, cuz the current empire surely lacks in that) It is true Ulfric's a fool for taking on what would/could be his Greatest ally but at the same time thats what he once believed in and held high in his mind, only to see it weaken and crumble, unnacceptable from where he stands. N I agree and disagree, hes not helping them physically but is easing the mental anguish of those watching their once beloved (no sarcasm) empire fold like sissies by fighting for whats right.
     
  18. thatwudbryan

    thatwudbryan yet another skyrim enthusiast

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    Ulfric loves his people and Talos, thats why he fights. In secret??? For what??? Thats some sissy compromsing baloney, not the nord way. They go down swinging till the wheels fall off while the empire's wheels are being straight hijacked RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!!!
     
  19. Jersey Dagmar

    Jersey Dagmar Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!

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    Are you even capable of making a coherent post? Until Ulfric started his little campaign, the Empire did not the enforce the ban on Talos worship. Ulfric's killing of the High King was what brought the immediate focus onto Skyrim and it's people from the Thalmor. As Janus3003 already pointed out. All Ulfric had to do was keep his mouth shut, worship in private, and aide the Empire in taking out the Thalmor. But, Ulfric is in it for Ulfric alone, he wants all the glory. He's not doing this for his 'brother's and sisters'.
     
  20. Captain Nagisus

    Captain Nagisus Jake the Dog!

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    I joined the Imperials and killed Ulfric Stormcloak for the sole reason of his racism. Trust me, after listening to Sovngarde Song by miracleofsound, I felt an overwhelming sense of Skyrim-patriotism, even though I prefer Argonians to Nords.

    The elves (I say elves because Niranye also lives in the Grey Quarter, despite not being a Dunmer. Elves is more general and well-fitting) and Argonians in Windhelm are segregated. That is my prime example of Ulfric's racism. The Argonians and Dunmer (as Niranye DID choose) there did not choose to be in Windhelm - it was merely the first stop when travelling east. When Red Mountain erupted, they were forced there as refugees.

    Do you think the Dunmer choose to live in that horrible slum? And if so, why the hell would you? Would you rather live in a respectable neighbourhood, very clean and tidy, or a dirty damn slum?

    Do you think the Argonians, treated even worse, choose to live in an Assemblage, and merely choose not to enter the city? Again, the idea is absurd. The Argonians and Dunmer are, yes, very proud and in the case of the Dunmer, slightly stubborn, as is pointed out by Niranye. So maybe, as there is no strong evidence it is law that the Dunmer must remain in that dirty old place (it's probably just the only free space there was, and the only space they thought was bad enough for the greyhides), the Dunmer could make some money and buy a house outside of the Grey Quarter. But it's illegal for Argonians to enter the city. Think about that. To compare Skyrim with reality (*has a long, hearty, mocking laugh*), it's like if the mayor of London suddenly said "Okay, all you Muslims get into this horrible slum, and Jews, get out of the city and don't come back!"

    To summarise this: Ulfric is racist, I like the Stormcloaks, Argonians are awesome, GREEN POWER.
     
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