Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

[Raijin]

Is he really allied with the empire or does he just support their beliefs towards equality amongst all races? Never seen imperial gear in his home when I was 'borrowing' some possesions from his home for the TG. Or else I missed it

Perhaps this is the gear that he use to wear. Now it's being worshiped by his Dark elf friends. They have a shrine and everything else.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Is he really allied with the empire or does he just support their beliefs towards equality amongst all races? Never seen imperial gear in his home when I was 'borrowing' some possesions from his home for the TG. Or else I missed it

I would say he's got sincere connections of some sort since he's appointed Jarl after Ulfric is deposed. In addition to shared beliefs in racial equality.

We are talking about Brunwulf, yes? Just making sure.

 

[Raijin]

LOL, no worries there, I killed the DB in my file - in my Skyrim, they have ceased to be. Much like the parrot in Monty Python.

I'm sure Rolff Stone-Fist is thinking up of a plan to whack the new Jarl. After all hes considered essential to the game.

 

[thatwudbryan]

Perhaps this is the gear that he use to wear. Now it's being worshiped by his Dark elf friends. They have a shrine and everything else.

Maybe Brunwulf had them 'hold it for a while' so he could get off the hook if his home were to go under investigation for suspecion of being an imperial ally? Just a silly thought/conspiracy

 

[thatwudbryan]

I would say he's got sincere connections of some sort since he's appointed Jarl after Ulfric is deposed. In addition to shared beliefs in racial equality.

We are talking about Brunwulf, yes? Just making sure.

Damn, your good

 

[Austin Chaos]

Maybe Brunwulf had them 'hold it for a while' so he could get off the hook if his home were to go under investigation for suspecion of being an imperial ally? Just a silly thought/conspiracy

When considering Adelaisa Vendicci as a potential steward, I had to wait for her at the New Gnisis club, and assumed the armor there was her's, absolving Brunwulf of any guilt as relates to that armor/banner lol

 

[Docta Corvina]

Damn, your good

...Yay sarcasm. Raijin posted that pic of other dude's armor so I was making sure.

 

[thatwudbryan]

...Yay sarcasm. Raijin posted that pic of other dude's armor so I was making sure.

Suprisingly no sarcasm there

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

1.Ignoring the fact that some citizens in the Grey Quarter are in Fact sided with the Imperials while living in Windhelm, SC capitol.

Further bolstering my argument that segregating and forcing them to live in slums leads to animosity between the two races. Would you rather fight for the man that oppresses you or the man that fights the man that oppresses you?

2. Ignoring the fact that while all the Imperial's reasons (excuses) and signing of this treaty (procrastinating and delaying the inevitable), people of Skyrim are being hauled away by Imperials and nords alike to be brought to the chopping block for worshipping Talos. (harsh!)

Having all of your cities burned and your people slaughtered is an excuse for signing an armistice? Do you think the Emperor likes the terms? And that he signed the concordant for any other reason aside from a chance to regain the Empire's strength?

3.See the SC's own reason's for fighting in the first place^^^^ *waiting for the inevitable "SC's are brainwashed by Ulfric" song n dance (laughable BS while ignoring the Imperial side of it) and the omnipotent "I don't lose these arguements cuz of facts n logic and I can care less or even mention the SC's cause blah blah blah"* "Human nature and conflict are prevalent in Skyrim" Yes indeed, take a look at the SC's eh?

Please rephrase this so that it even remotely resembles coherent thought.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I'm sure Rolff Stone-Fist is thinking up of a plan to whack the new Jarl. After all hes considered essential to the game.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I know some blood will be boiling in Windhelm for a while after Ulfric is killed. Makes me wish I could see further into Brunwulf's reign.

 

[thatwudbryan]

When considering Adelaisa Vendicci as a potential steward, I had to wait for her at the New Gnisis club, and assumed the armor there was her's, absolving Brunwulf of any guilt as relates to that armor/banner lol

Is it really? Its a friggin conspiracy maeyunn!!! A conspiracy!

 

[thatwudbryan]

Further bolstering my argument that segregating and forcing them to live in slums leads to animosity between the two races. Would you rather fight for the man that oppresses you or the man that fights the man that oppresses you?


Having all of your cities burned and your people slaughtered is an excuse for signing an armistice? Do you think the Emperor likes the terms? And that he signed the concordant for any other reason aside from a chance to regain the Empire's strength?


Please rephrase this so that it even remotely resembles coherent thought.

We will get no where with this, its quite obvious. You're goin to continue to ignore that people of skyrim are being taken for execution for worshipping talos, n im not going to entertain the fact that the imperials are waiting out this contract to reagain and regroup, while what I mentioned (dying for worshipping talos) is going unnoticed and unaccounted for while the Thalmor laugh in BOTH their faces.

 

[Rayven]

Not trying to go off topic but this this thread is starting to sound a lot like the Imperial vs Stormcloak thread that's sticky. Rayven Can you merge this thread with Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one? | Skyrim Forums ?

I'd really rather not, to be honest. If you guys stay on topic here, it should be a subset conversation of the larger Imperials vs. Stormcloaks conversation. Shoving this into that very big and bloated thread, I think, would be a disservice to this smaller offshoot topic as it will get lost in that one.

 

[Ned]

I drew a real life parallel to your fallacious and clearly uneducated argument that because someone doesn't share your ethnicity or culture that they're a potential enemy. And yes, while the Grey Quarter may not exactly be a concentration camp it's quite literally a ghetto in the politically correct sense of the word. It serves to segregate and confine foreigners.

You drew a false parallel that has nothing, at all, to do with the game.

Yes, the political definition of ghetto applies to The Grey Quarter, but do you really think it's anything like what Hitler imposed on the Jews? Were dunmer ripped from their homes and dragged to The Grey Quarter against their will? Were they pulled out to ditches and executed in front of their families? Did Ulfric build camps dedicated to burning dunmer alive? Did he decide that the eradication of dunmer was prudent?

No?

Are you drawing unfair, out of context parallels? Yes.

But I'm uneducated, right? I'm a teacher, by profession. Keep your insults in check. You are one step away from being ignored.

When your people have been slaughtered in droves and your cities burned and razed sometimes you need to cut your losses. The Empire had been pushed to the breaking point, and agreed to the armistice because it was the only option. What would you recommend? They continued fighting and be destroyed?

The Empire gave up and signed an unacceptable treaty. Now they go about cutting the heads off of good nords for just about anything. Come off it.

And seeing how Ulfric was captured by Elenwen during the war and gave up vital information to the Thalmor, I hardly see how this "sign of weakness" argument holds any ground for the Stormcloaks.

Ulfric was torchered. You are being petty.

Human nature and conflict are prevalent in Skyrim, and aside from the magic and fantasy elements it's forms of government and culture are very so paralleled to real life.

No, it isn't. Nothing that has happened in our world has happened in theirs. The events that have sculpted our opinions and progression did not take place in their world. Referencing events in real life and trying to compare them to Skyrim is idiotic. Period.

I'm done with you. You have, literally, not a single good argument. And you are rude and insulting.

 

[Janus3003]

Ulfric was torchered. You are being petty.

Why is it okay for Ulfric to give up vital info under torture, yet horrific for the Empire to grudgingly accept a treaty (that they don't even enforce when their enemies aren't breathing down their neck) when fighting a war that's quite sure to result in everyone's death?

 

[Ned]

Why is it okay for Ulfric to give up vital info under torture, yet horrific for the Empire to grudgingly accept a treaty (that they don't even enforce when their enemies aren't breathing down their neck) when fighting a war that's quite sure to result in everyone's death?

The empire enforces the treaty. There are instances when they ignore it, but there are plenty of heads rolling in honor of this treaty.

"Everyone's death" is an assumption. I'm confident that the nords of Skyrim can make a difference.

One man broke down under torture does not equal the signing of a treaty that damns thousands. Sorry.

 

[Janus3003]

The empire enforces the treaty. There are instances when they ignore it, but there are plenty of heads rolling in honor of this treaty.

Mind showing me an example of Imperials enforcing it, completely free of Thalmor involvement?

I'm confident that the nords of Skyrim can make a difference.

And this isn't an assumption?

One man broke down under torture does not equal the signing of a treaty that damns thousands. Sorry.

Saves thousands, the way I see it. It's Ulfric's pride that's damned the people of Skyrim.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

You drew a false parallel that has nothing, at all, to do with the game.

Yes, the political definition of ghetto applies to The Grey Quarter, but do you really think it's anything like what Hitler imposed on the Jews? Were dunmer ripped from their homes and dragged to The Grey Quarter against their will? Were they pulled out to ditches and executed in front of their families? Did Ulfric build camps dedicated to burning dunmer alive? Did he decide that the eradication of dunmer was prudent?

No?

Are you drawing unfair, out of context parallels? Yes.

Appalling how I specifically stated that, while the Gray Quarter is parallel to a ghetto it is by no means a concentration camp. You, however, are quick to entirely disregard that.

The parallel here is that any Dunmer living in Windhelm also lives in the segregated ghetto. And any Jew or Communist or Homosexual living in Germany throughout the 30's and 40's was either in an extermination camp or a ghetto. While Ulfric may not be as brutal or prejudiced as Hitler, the point here is that they segregated undesirables from whom they considered desirable.

But I'm uneducated, right? I'm a teacher, by profession. Keep your insults in check. You are one step away from being ignored.

Insults? "This paragraph is stupid" wasn't an insult? Keep in mind you threw them around first.

The Empire gave up and signed an unacceptable treaty. Now they go about cutting the heads off of good nords for just about anything. Come off it.

The Imperials were executing Stormcloaks because they killed the High King. The Thalmor Justicars handle the Talos worshippers. Please, get your facts in check before you throw around baseless accusations like that.

Ulfric was torchered. You are being petty.

*tortured

So what you're saying is that its okay for Ulfric to give in out of anguish and pain but not the Empire?



No, it isn't. Nothing that has happened in our world has happened in theirs. The events that have sculpted our opinions and progression did not take place in their world. Referencing events in real life and trying to compare them to Skyrim is idiotic. Period.

I'm done with you. You have, literally, not a single good argument. And you are rude and insulting.

Judging by how you've resorted to calling me rude and dismissing my arguments I'm going to hold this as little more than a cop out on your part.


Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ned]

Hey, thanks! It is something that I muse about often. I'm very into characterization (I fancy myself a writer) and delving into the figures Beth created is always a fascinating exercise for me. There's so much to work with and scrutinize. Especially when it comes to Ulfric, there's even an ongoing debate among players as to the level of his personal sincerity and real motivations for everything he does and has done. I tend to believe there is cause to be skeptical about him honestly, ha. I feel also that (based on my observation) the divergence in fans' allegiance in this game is informed at least in part by whether one has played the previous installments - particularly Oblivion. I may well be an exception to my own hypothesis since Skyrim was my first ES game and I've since begun to work my way backward with play-throughs of the older games - and I wound up siding with the Legion from the outset. But it seems to be a trend I've witnessed. Your first exposure to the Legion in Skyrim is of course when they attempt to behead you - rather, when one careless captain refuses to follow up on your absence from the "list". Obviously if the slate was totally blank for you when it came to the Empire and the Legion up until that point, that could well have sealed your fate as a Stormcloak. And yet, we're shown a sympathetic Hadvar who emerges in direct contrast to the captain and you're then confronted with the chaos of all that's going on.

I am an exception to your observation. I played Morrowind when it was current, way back when I was in high school. I played Oblivion from launch up to The Shivering Isles, as well. My first character was a Nord. In Morrowind, he was too big for much of the armor and some of it wouldn't show up on him, at all, but it all came together in Bloodmoon.

When I played Oblivion, I was very critical, because I felt Cyrodil was very boring, compared to Morrowind. Gone were the days of true exploration and finding true artifacts. Gone were they days of reading and actually having consequences for your actions. Oblivion felt very lazy, to me. The empire seemed weak compared to what I had faced becoming the Nerevarine. It was like the game held your hand.

Skyrim was refreshing, but I realize it can never go back to how it was in Morrowind. At least in Skyrim, when you go to a place you are too weak for, you die, horribly. In oblivion, everything was leveled and nothing was ever hard.

Still, I never respected the Empire. I still remember my beastly Nord that owned Morrowind through blood and effort. When i found out Skyrim would be in Nord homeland, I was elated.

On the other hand, fans who have been familiar with the Empire and what it has stood for and accomplished through ES history (again, here's looking at you, Oblivion) perhaps seem to be more inclined to support it despite the opening sequence and its circumstances. Obviously this is not true for everyone or maybe even most players. But in talking to people on this forum about it at least and in reading reviews, it has been a recurring theme. When it comes to RPing aspects, my main character is a Breton/Redguard from Cyrodiil who is the daughter of a proud (and late) Legionnaire and someone who has always been exposed to a crossroads of cultures, as well as Imperial allegiance. Like her father, she bears no malice toward any peoples of Tamriel based on race alone. She is wary of the Thalmor and resentful of them for all that they've done, and essentially wants to see the Empire restrengthened, so that all can live in peace and as they desire. And so for those reasons and others, siding with the Legion was inevitable. And even though I argue for the Empire vigorously, it doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the general sentiment of the Stormcloaks. Seems to me, anyway, that at the end of the day both sides want the same thing. It's but a divergence in timing and approach to achieve the common end.

I think the fall of the Thalmor and the Dominion will benefit all of Tamriel, and that the Storm Cloaks, as patriotic and insensitive as they may be, have the right idea. The Emprire, as great as is once was, faltered when it signed that treaty. The Dominion must fall.

I guess all of the above rambling is to say that I agree with your assessment, there are many things to pull you in opposing directions throughout the campaign. It's all written brilliantly; I only wish the civil war questline itself went on longer and had some more tangible results. For me, after the Imperial victory, seeing the beginning of changes in Windhelm via the new optimism of Dark Elves and Nords alike was uplifting. While I can understand the context we are operating in when it comes to the situation in Windhelm, the racial issues always have been and will be a sticking point for me and it's one thing I just can't write off. But of course it's going to be engaged differently by everyone who plays and it's interesting to hear/read people's varied reactions to it.

I wish the racial issues were handled differently. I did not care for the bullying and segregation when I entered Windhelm, and did my best to subside it. I don't agree with Ulfric's segregation of the dunmer, but I don't think he's Hitler, either. It's unfortunate, but it doesn't really matter, in the big picture, to me.

I have to say, though, I'm legitimately surprised when I read that people think the Legion/Empire is the more popular choice in the civil war. It has long seemed to me that the Stormcloaks were the so-called "fan favorite". Really though, our main civil war thread goes back and forth enough of the time (and has, for over 200 pages) that it seems like loyalties are roughly evenly split - not unlike the in-game factions themselves.

/novella ...Yikes, that was long.

I appreciate long, well thought out posts much more than accusing, hateful ones that lack substance. Your participation is very welcome, though we may disagree.

That said, I feel the safer choice is the empire, and that most will side with it, especially since most players don't roll a nord. It's much harder to sympathize with the Storm ==Cloaks when you are not a nord.

 

[Raijin]

Why is it okay for Ulfric to give up vital info under torture, yet horrific for the Empire to grudgingly accept a treaty (that they don't even enforce when their enemies aren't breathing down their neck) when fighting a war that's quite sure to result in everyone's death?

Janus, I love you bro but that was a ridiculous statement. I would hope that after you reread your post that you would soon agree with me.

The situation with Emperor Titus Mede II and Ulfric are completely different. The Emperor wasn't captured by the Thalmor and had to face an interrogation by torture, Ulfric did. The Thalmor are brutal when they torture people. The methods are quite bloody. They make grown men cry.

The Empire got their asses kicked but they soon recovered and regain back their city. They've captured the leader and was hung for so many days until they (I assume) killed him. Everything was going great until Mede cracked. He surrendered to the Thalmor and gave them exactly what they wanted.