Why do some People think Ulfric Stormcloak is Racist

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Ned

Nerevarine
Your thinking is truly warped. You basically described racism, and said it isn't racism. Also, please think of this realistically. If a power your nation pledged itself to agreed to a treaty term to end a brutal war, and refused to enforce it to the point that people consistently get away with breaking it, how justified is the war? There are examples of Talos faith being overlooked. Maybe yo should realize war isn't as fun as playing an RPG.
If you're people are part of a rebellion that involves them, specifically, all other races become potential enemies. The segregation is tactical, not racial hatred based. I'm sorry you don't understand that.

These "examples of Talos being overlooked" aren't good enough. The empire fought hard against the Dominion and then accepted terms unfair to the Nords of Skyrim, so they are doing something about it. It's that simple. Maybe you like to roll over and accept your freedoms and beliefs being assaulted, but some people won't.

That's the difference between you and I, and the end of the conversation. You say it's not that bad, I say it's unacceptable.

Also, give the real life parallels a rest. They are out of context and downright silly. Video games are for fun, and war in video games is fun. Stop being political about a video game. Do you think that troll over there cares if you are a hippy? What about the lizardman casting magic spells? ...That's what I thought.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
This thread has made me ponder what makes Ulfric a villain to so many, and I mean even in addition to the racial angles. To me, the best representative the Stormcloaks could hope is in a character like Ralof, who - from what I have seen in my admittedly limited exposure to him - is relatively open, humble and genuine. He's not bitterly insular, he's not rabid, he's not overly bloodthirsty. He seems like a sincere guy who truly just wants what he thinks is best for his home and his people, no glorious strings attached. He, like Hadvar on the Imperial side, seems to acknowledge the woes of warfare and their tolls on both factions, and all in all wants to see it pass. He's earnest, and down to earth. And he is what makes me have some sympathy for the Stormcloak side, despite my fairly grounded Imperial leanings.

Ulfric, I find, squanders the sympathy many people would or could have for him and his side, in different ways. Yet, he also is privy to a great personal magnetism. And that to me again proves clever writing on the part of Bethesda.
 

Janus3003

Skyrim Marriage Counselor
These "examples of Talos being overlooked" aren't good enough. The empire fought hard against the Dominion and then accepted terms unfair to the Nords of Skyrim,
You realize that Nords aren't the only ones who worship Talos, right?
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
THIS.
If you were an individual living in Tamriel, you wouldn't see everyone around you as an NPC who exists solely to give you a quest, be a merchant, or be cultural decoration. They'd be an individual, from friends, family, lovers, jerks, klutzes, anything and everything.
And when they die, they don't come back. You don't reload the game, you don't use the console or install a mod to bring them back. They're dead, and it's going to hurt.

Simply put, if starting an uprising just as a matter of "honor" is more important to you than your people (especially when you could still enact your rights at home), then to hell with your honor.
To me, honor is doing the greatest good for the greatest number, not just gratifying my pride.
So how many more Talos worshippers will the empire let be dragged away by Imperials (wanna talk about brother against brother huh?) and Thalmor alike? Lets say you're playing a SC sympathizer, your going to let your brother, sister, son daughter whatever be takin for execution for worshipping a god??? When do the empire plan to strike back anyway? Episdode 5? The way things are going Skyrim wouldn't make it that far before the Thalmor had finally overtaken Skyrim for themselves. The empire is procrastinating while all this religious persecution resulting in people dying is goin on. Rping isn't just empire support exclusive, some want things done and done now, IE: the Stormcloaks
 

Ned

Nerevarine
This thread has made me ponder what makes Ulfric a villain to so many, and I mean even in addition to the racial angles. To me, the best representative the Stormcloaks could hope is in a character like Ralof, who - from what I have seen in my admittedly limited exposure to him - is relatively open, humble and genuine. He's not bitterly insular, he's not rabid, he's not overly bloodthirsty. He seems like a sincere guy who truly just wants what he thinks is best for his home and his people, no glorious strings attached. He, like Hadvar on the Imperial side, seems to acknowledge the woes of warfare and their tolls on both factions, and all in all wants to see it pass. He's earnest, and down to earth. And he is what makes me have some sympathy for the Stormcloak side, despite my fairly grounded Imperial leanings.

Ulfric, I find, squanders the sympathy many people would or could have for him and his side, in different ways. Yet, he also is privy to a great personal magnetism. And that to me again proves clever writing on the part of Bethesda.
This is a great post. I agree with it and think that Bethesda did an amazing job with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. With a few minor tweaks, Ulfric would have been the landslide choice, but with clever twists showing the uglier side of war and rebellion, they created a much more polarizing character and a much more interesting moral choice for the players. It's incredible how worked up it gets the fans. Very cool.

I play a Nord and believe that the Stormcloak side is what's best for my character, and so I defend it. I'm being intentionally antagonistic about it in this thread because I feel the Stormcloaks lack support on these forums, but in reality choosing a side for me was very tough. There are things that I felt terrible about, morally. Sacking Solitude and executing Tulius was awful and unseating Jarl Balgruuf the Greater, who I loved and respected as a character was unsettling, as well. I felt very similar to him with his indecision about the war, and his interactions with Ulfric were awesome. I put off choosing a side for some time.

Oddly enough, the segregation in Windhelm didn't bother me as much as it does most players. While the bulling by the townsfolk was out of hand, an Ned took care of it, protecting the Dunmer and beating a foolish nord in the process, I found the segregation natural and understandable in the context of what is going on.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
For the love of Talos. Yes, the Empire fought hard. For many years, they waged a war that destroyed the Blades, wrecked cities, and killed thousands. Is it really wrong to take a chance to recover? Also, people were still worshiping Talos to the point where Alvor says it casually. Not being able to preach it in the streets in most places is a pathetic excuse for a war, especially when the entire point of the ban was to temporarily end the fighting. All Ulfric accomplished was defeating the purpose of agreeing to the WGC.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
If you're people are part of a rebellion that involves them, specifically, all other races become potential enemies. The segregation is tactical, not racial hatred based. I'm sorry you don't understand that.

The segregation in Windhelm is in no way shape or form a tactical decision, it creates further unrest and animosity within the city. While Ulfric may call it as such, Hitler would also call his decision to segregate communists, jews, or other undesirables whom he considered potential threats to ghettos and concentration camps a "tactical" one. When in fact the decision instead stems from one's own racial bigotry.
These "examples of Talos being overlooked" aren't good enough. The empire fought hard against the Dominion and then accepted terms unfair to the Nords of Skyrim, so they are doing something about it. It's that simple. Maybe you like to roll over and accept your freedoms and beliefs being assaulted, but some people won't.

What was a tactical decision was the Empire agreeing to the terms of the Concordant to give them time to rebuild and rearm. Keep in mind that both the provinces of Cyrodiil and Hammerfell had been ravaged on levels akin to that of the Oblivion Crisis, while the men of Skyrim may have fought in the war; the province itself was relatively untouched.

If you're going to continue the "they have the right to do something about it" argument, then maybe Ulfric should be fighting the actual cause of the problem; the Thalmor.
Also, give the real life parallels a rest. They are out of context and downright silly. Video games are for fun, and war in video games is fun. Stop being political about a video game. Do you think that troll over there cares if you are a hippy? What about the lizardman casting magic spells? ...That's what I thought.

First you argue from realistic points of view then you dismiss other arguments with "it's just a game." The fact is that despite The Elder Scrolls being a fictional universe laws of logic and common sense still apply within it. While war may be fun in a video game, it isn't for those taken place in said universe.
 

Ned

Nerevarine
The segregation in Windhelm is in no way shape or form a tactical decision, it creates further unrest and animosity within the city. While Ulfric may call it as such, Hitler would also call his decision to segregate communists, jews, or other undesirables whom he considered potential threats to ghettos and concentration camps a "tactical" one. When in fact the decision instead stems from one's own racial bigotry.
You basically just said ,"It's not tactical because Hitler".

The Grey Quarter is not a ghetto or a concentration camp. Ulfric is not Hitler. This paragraph is stupid.

What was a tactical decision was the Empire agreeing to the terms of the Concordant to give them time to rebuild and rearm. Keep in mind that both the provinces of Cyrodiil and Hammerfell had been ravaged on levels akin to that of the Oblivion Crisis, while the men of Skyrim may have fought in the war; the province itself was relatively untouched.

If you're going to continue the "they have the right to do something about it" argument, then maybe Ulfric should be fighting the actual cause of the problem; the Thalmor.
No, tactical decisions work for you, not against you. The treaty was a cop out and a sign of weakness. If the war isn't over, then don't pretend it is, otherwise you may find new enemies where friends once resided.


First you argue from realistic points of view then you dismiss other arguments with "it's just a game." The fact is that despite The Elder Scrolls being a fictional universe laws of logic and common sense still apply within it. While war may be fun in a video game, it isn't for those taken place in said universe.
I keep my points of view in context an don't try to draw parallels to real life events or even social culture. It simply isn't in context when referring to Skyrim. Their world is nothing like ours and the comparisons are invalid.
 
Hes the best guy with the best personality in the Game. His Bodyguard Galmar might be but Ulfric is not. Hes a Revolutionary fighting for his Country and Freedom hes like our Founding Fathers hes trying to get his Country to be free from a curropt and dying Empire also like our Founding Fathers did. There are ALOT of parallels between our Revolutionary war and Skyrims War, And The Revolutionary Militia and The Stormcloaks. All the Empire wants to do is take Skyrims Resources and tell them what to do and take away their Freedom also like the British did.
Hes the best guy with the best personality in the Game. His Bodyguard Galmar might be but Ulfric is not. Hes a Revolutionary fighting for his Country and Freedom hes like our Founding Fathers hes trying to get his Country to be free from a curropt and dying Empire also like our Founding Fathers did. There are ALOT of parallels between our Revolutionary war and Skyrims War, And The Revolutionary Militia and The Stormcloaks. All the Empire wants to do is take Skyrims Resources and tell them what to do and take away their Freedom also like the British did.
Hes the best guy with the best personality in the Game. His Bodyguard Galmar might be but Ulfric is not. Hes a Revolutionary fighting for his Country and Freedom hes like our Founding Fathers hes trying to get his Country to be free from a curropt and dying Empire also like our Founding Fathers did. There are ALOT of parallels between our Revolutionary war and Skyrims War, And The Revolutionary Militia and The Stormcloaks. All the Empire wants to do is take Skyrims Resources and tell them what to do and take away their Freedom also like the British did.
I have been thinking about this.. do what if he is Racist against things that are not Human . I personally cant stand those kajit cats and those lizard argonian
 
You know what I've been thinking about this. So what if he is Racist or Specieist against non Humans I cant stand even looking at or hearing those kajit cats and those lizard argonians
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
You basically just said ,"It's not tactical because Hitler".

The Grey Quarter is not a ghetto or a concentration camp. Ulfric is not Hitler. This paragraph is stupid.

I drew a real life parallel to your fallacious and clearly uneducated argument that because someone doesn't share your ethnicity or culture that they're a potential enemy. And yes, while the Grey Quarter may not exactly be a concentration camp it's quite literally a ghetto in the politically correct sense of the word. It serves to segregate and confine foreigners.
No, tactical decisions work for you, not against you. The treaty was a cop out and a sign of weakness. If the war isn't over, then don't pretend it is, otherwise you may find new enemies where friends once resided.

When your people have been slaughtered in droves and your cities burned and razed sometimes you need to cut your losses. The Empire had been pushed to the breaking point, and agreed to the armistice because it was the only option. What would you recommend? They continued fighting and be destroyed?

And seeing how Ulfric was captured by Elenwen during the war and gave up vital information to the Thalmor, I hardly see how this "sign of weakness" argument holds any ground for the Stormcloaks.
I keep my points of view in context an don't try to draw parallels to real life events or even social culture. It simply isn't in context when referring to Skyrim. Their world is nothing like ours and the comparisons are invalid.

Human nature and conflict are prevalent in Skyrim, and aside from the magic and fantasy elements it's forms of government and culture are very so paralleled to real life.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
This is a great post. I agree with it and think that Bethesda did an amazing job with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. With a few minor tweaks, Ulfric would have been the landslide choice, but with clever twists showing the uglier side of war and rebellion, they created a much more polarizing character and a much more interesting moral choice for the players. It's incredible how worked up it gets the fans. Very cool.

I play a Nord and believe that the Stormcloak side is what's best for my character, and so I defend it. I'm being intentionally antagonistic about it in this thread because I feel the Stormcloaks lack support on these forums, but in reality choosing a side for me was very tough. There are things that I felt terrible about, morally. Sacking Solitude and executing Tulius was awful and unseating Jarl Balgruuf the Greater, who I loved and respected as a character was unsettling, as well. I felt very similar to him with his indecision about the war, and his interactions with Ulfric were awesome. I put off choosing a side for some time.

Oddly enough, the segregation in Windhelm didn't bother me as much as it does most players. While the bulling by the townsfolk was out of hand, an Ned took care of it, protecting the Dunmer and beating a foolish nord in the process, I found the segregation natural and understandable in the context of what is going on.

Hey, thanks! It is something that I muse about often. I'm very into characterization (I fancy myself a writer) and delving into the figures Beth created is always a fascinating exercise for me. There's so much to work with and scrutinize. Especially when it comes to Ulfric, there's even an ongoing debate among players as to the level of his personal sincerity and real motivations for everything he does and has done. I tend to believe there is cause to be skeptical about him honestly, ha. I feel also that (based on my observation) the divergence in fans' allegiance in this game is informed at least in part by whether one has played the previous installments - particularly Oblivion. I may well be an exception to my own hypothesis since Skyrim was my first ES game and I've since begun to work my way backward with play-throughs of the older games - and I wound up siding with the Legion from the outset. But it seems to be a trend I've witnessed. Your first exposure to the Legion in Skyrim is of course when they attempt to behead you - rather, when one careless captain refuses to follow up on your absence from the "list". Obviously if the slate was totally blank for you when it came to the Empire and the Legion up until that point, that could well have sealed your fate as a Stormcloak. And yet, we're shown a sympathetic Hadvar who emerges in direct contrast to the captain and you're then confronted with the chaos of all that's going on.

On the other hand, fans who have been familiar with the Empire and what it has stood for and accomplished through ES history (again, here's looking at you, Oblivion) perhaps seem to be more inclined to support it despite the opening sequence and its circumstances. Obviously this is not true for everyone or maybe even most players. But in talking to people on this forum about it at least and in reading reviews, it has been a recurring theme. When it comes to RPing aspects, my main character is a Breton/Redguard from Cyrodiil who is the daughter of a proud (and late) Legionnaire and someone who has always been exposed to a crossroads of cultures, as well as Imperial allegiance. Like her father, she bears no malice toward any peoples of Tamriel based on race alone. She is wary of the Thalmor and resentful of them for all that they've done, and essentially wants to see the Empire restrengthened, so that all can live in peace and as they desire. And so for those reasons and others, siding with the Legion was inevitable. And even though I argue for the Empire vigorously, it doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the general sentiment of the Stormcloaks. Seems to me, anyway, that at the end of the day both sides want the same thing. It's but a divergence in timing and approach to achieve the common end.

I guess all of the above rambling is to say that I agree with your assessment, there are many things to pull you in opposing directions throughout the campaign. It's all written brilliantly; I only wish the civil war questline itself went on longer and had some more tangible results. For me, after the Imperial victory, seeing the beginning of changes in Windhelm via the new optimism of Dark Elves and Nords alike was uplifting. While I can understand the context we are operating in when it comes to the situation in Windhelm, the racial issues always have been and will be a sticking point for me and it's one thing I just can't write off. But of course it's going to be engaged differently by everyone who plays and it's interesting to hear/read people's varied reactions to it.

I have to say, though, I'm legitimately surprised when I read that people think the Legion/Empire is the more popular choice in the civil war. It has long seemed to me that the Stormcloaks were the so-called "fan favorite". :p Really though, our main civil war thread goes back and forth enough of the time (and has, for over 200 pages) that it seems like loyalties are roughly evenly split - not unlike the in-game factions themselves.

/novella ...Yikes, that was long. :oops:
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
I drew a real life parallel to your fallacious and clearly uneducated argument that because someone doesn't share your ethnicity or culture that they're a potential enemy. And yes, while the Grey Quarter may not exactly be a concentration camp it's quite literally a ghetto in the politically correct sense of the word. It serves to segregate and confine foreigners.


When your people have been slaughtered in droves and your cities burned and razed sometimes you need to cut your losses. The Empire had been pushed to the breaking point, and agreed to the armistice because it was the only option. What would you recommend? They continued fighting and be destroyed?

And seeing how Ulfric was captured by Elenwen during the war and gave up vital information to the Thalmor, I hardly see how this "sign of weakness" argument holds any ground for the Stormcloaks.


Human nature and conflict are prevalent in Skyrim, and aside from the magic and fantasy elements it's forms of government and culture are very so paralleled to real life.
1.Ignoring the fact that some citizens in the Grey Quarter are in Fact sided with the Imperials while living in Windhelm, SC capitol.

2. Ignoring the fact that while all the Imperial's reasons (excuses) and signing of this treaty (procrastinating and delaying the inevitable), people of Skyrim are being hauled away by Imperials and nords alike to be brought to the chopping block for worshipping Talos. (harsh!)

3.See the SC's own reason's for fighting in the first place^^^^ *waiting for the inevitable "SC's are brainwashed by Ulfric" song n dance (laughable BS while ignoring the Imperial side of it) and the omnipotent "I don't lose these arguements cuz of facts n logic and I can care less or even mention the SC's cause blah blah blah"* "Human nature and conflict are prevalent in Skyrim" Yes indeed, take a look at the SC's eh?

N keep those "uneducated" comments to yourself, dont get mad cuz people are bringing up just reasons for their respective in game chosen cause, same as you do for Imperials.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
1.Ignoring the fact that some citizens in the Grey Quarter are in Fact sided with the Imperials while living in Windhelm, SC capitol.

If it were all about civil war allegiance though - even ignoring the fact that not all Dunmer are even undeniably allied with the Empire - then why isn't Brunwulf Free-Winter a target in that regard? :confused: He talks smack about Ulfric and his cause openly enough. It's not like he's in jail when we encounter him in Windhelm and only freed if the Empire wins. He exists freely. The only difference is that he's a Nord.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
If it were all about civil war allegiance though - even ignoring the fact that not all Dunmer are even undeniably allied with the Empire - then why isn't Brunwulf Free-Winter a target in that regard? :confused: He talks smack about Ulfric and his cause openly enough. It's not like he's in jail when we encounter him in Windhelm and only freed if the Empire wins. He exists freely. The only difference is that he's a Nord.

Brunwulf Free-Winter is a plops talker. He talks smack about Ulfric and his cause, but he doesn't mind going inside the palace of the kings to gain access to feed delicious food. Brunwulf is an asshole just like his dark elf friends.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Brunwulf Free-Winter is a pl*** talker. He talks smack about Ulfric and his cause, but he doesn't mind going inside the palace of the kings to gain access to feed delicious food. Brunwulf is an asshole just like his dark elf friends.

You do realize the same thing happens in reverse if the Empire wins...all of the Stormcloak Jarls/stewards enjoy Brunwulf's "Dark Elf loving" hospitality. Raijin, you crack me up. :p
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
You do realize the same thing happens in reverse if the Empire wins...all of the Stormcloak Jarls/stewards enjoy Brunwulf's "Dark Elf loving" hospitality. Raijin, you crack me up. :p

So how much gold did the Empire give to this bum? Don't you worry. If the Dark Brotherhood can successfully assassinate the Emperor then taking out a Jarl would be like putting frosting on a cake.
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
If it were all about civil war allegiance though - even ignoring the fact that not all Dunmer are even undeniably allied with the Empire - then why isn't Brunwulf Free-Winter a target in that regard? :confused: He talks smack about Ulfric and his cause openly enough. It's not like he's in jail when we encounter him in Windhelm and only freed if the Empire wins. He exists freely. The only difference is that he's a Nord.
Is he really allied with the empire or does he just support their beliefs towards equality amongst all races? Never seen imperial gear in his home when I was 'borrowing' some possesions from his home for the TG. Or else I missed it
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
So how much gold did the Empire give to this bum? Don't you worry. If the Dark Brotherhood can successfully assassinate the Emperor then taking out a Jarl would be like putting frosting on a cake.

LOL, no worries there, I killed the DB in my file - in my Skyrim, they have ceased to be. Much like the parrot in Monty Python. :p
 

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