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Jo'rak Vandeni

Jurrrl o' Sweden
Altmer and Dunmer had a grudge, cause the Dunmer were initially Mer colonists that went independent, but that was waaaay back in time, and no, don't see any reason for Aldmeri to try control Morrowind, more to attempt to ally up.

Drunkenmage, now THAT is something I believe is fully possible, maybe not as likely with House Redoran in charge, but if house Dres took over, that would be highly likely, House Dres is infamous for their strong hate to the Empire, even more than most Dunmer already are, tehre's one house that was pro-empire, but they're more or less suppressed entirely by the others.

Morrowind's army belong to House Redoran, they're Redoran soldiers.

Just as the Nords were once fighting for the Empire? Hope you see my point.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Altmer and Dunmer had a grudge, cause the Dunmer were initially Mer colonists that went independent, but that was waaaay back in time, and no, don't see any reason for Aldmeri to try control Morrowind, more to attempt to ally up.

Drunkenmage, now THAT is something I believe is fully possible, maybe not as likely with House Redoran in charge, but if house Dres took over, that would be highly likely, House Dres is infamous for their strong hate to the Empire, even more than most Dunmer already are, tehre's one house that was pro-empire, but they're more or less suppressed entirely by the others.

Morrowind's army belong to House Redoran, they're Redoran soldiers.

Just as the Nords were once fighting for the Empire? Hope you see my point.

Slightly different. They're actually part of House Redoran. Unless the other Houses maintain armies, far as I could tell Redoran rules the council by military might.
 

Jo'rak Vandeni

Jurrrl o' Sweden
Well my opinion is still suitable whether Redoran or Dres, the Dunmer are a force to be reckoned with, and no matter the house (Apart from Indoril I believe they are called, the "yellows") relations with the Empire and humans generally are unstable
 

Caideus

Member
Does anyone know that Ulfric was to be a Greybeard? Not that's a big deal. That the only reason he did not finish his training was because the Aldmeri invaded the Empire. He turned is gaze from the heavens to aid his Empire in it's time of need, and when it was over, when the treaty was signed. The Emperor turned his back on his allies from the Blades (who some members of the Order of Talos), Hammerfell, and to the children of Skyrim.

Mede II probably signed the treaty, that was very much like the first treaty, out of fear. Out of fear of the death of his Empire. Ulfric probably only really desired to be High King because he saw none that were strong enough to rule his homeland. That none could protect Skyrim's "heart, and soul" I believe his ambition is clear, and noble. I also believe that the treaty was signed to help protect the Empire. A dream worthy of dutiful protection. There is no clear answer, both the Emperor Mede II and Ulfric have slander across them, marking them as imperfect and flawed by nature. There are too few of ways to keep these two nations at peace without war, and without the Dargonborn's interference, I believe that these two factions would fight until a new Emperor ascended to the Ruby Throne and Ulfric's heir became High King. I am not sure talks would then commence but if they did, I am sure some sort of peace could be found. Then again, that could just be a fool's hope.

But with the threat of a pending assault of the Aldmeri dominion, all of Tameriell is going to need to join forces to beat back the elven forces. I would hope that if the Stormcloaks did find victory, that they would join in the battle of the age, repealing Aldmeri Dominion out for good.

((After you learn that you are Dragonborn and before you travel to High Hrothgar, speak with Ulfric. You will learn more about his becoming a Greybeard.))
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Does anyone know that Ulfric was to be a Greybeard? Not that's a big deal. That the only reason he did not finish his training was because the Aldmeri invaded the Empire. He turned is gaze from the heavens to aid his Empire in it's time of need, and when it was over, when the treaty was signed. The Emperor turned his back on his allies from the Blades (who some members of the Order of Talos), Hammerfell, and to the children of Skyrim.

Mede II probably signed the treaty, that was very much like the first treaty, out of fear. Out of fear of the death of his Empire. Ulfric probably only really desired to be High King because he saw none that were strong enough to rule his homeland. That none could protect Skyrim's "heart, and soul" I believe his ambition is clear, and noble. I also believe that the treaty was signed to help protect the Empire. A dream worthy of dutiful protection. There is no clear answer, both the Emperor Mede II and Ulfric have slander across them, marking them as imperfect and flawed by nature. There are too few of ways to keep these two nations at peace without war, and without the Dargonborn's interference, I believe that these two factions would fight until a new Emperor ascended to the Ruby Throne and Ulfric's heir became High King. I am not sure talks would then commence but if they did, I am sure some sort of peace could be found. Then again, that could just be a fool's hope.

But with the threat of a pending assault of the Aldmeri dominion, all of Tameriell is going to need to join forces to beat back the elven forces. I would hope that if the Stormcloaks did find victory, that they would join in the battle of the age, repealing Aldmeri Dominion out for good.

((After you learn that you are Dragonborn and before you travel to High Hrothgar, speak with Ulfric. You will learn more about his becoming a Greybeard.))
While your lore is impeccable and I have heard him talk about it. He is a terrible person that murdered a boy (YES I SAID IT!) who was not able to defend himself against someone with an unfair magical. He does not deserve to be High King nor do any of his heirs (of which, thank goodness there are none).

Sorry - but the man bothers me more than you will ever know and I relish the opportunity to cut him down, strip him and sell his stuff to a local beggar every time I play the game.

I simply cannot get behind his cause or care in any way about him or any of the fools he runs his xenophobic, bigotted, violently myopic pretend "empire" with.

In my game he gets what he deserves and, after I bring him back from the dead, I enjoy destroying him again and again.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Does anyone know that Ulfric was to be a Greybeard? Not that's a big deal. That the only reason he did not finish his training was because the Aldmeri invaded the Empire. He turned is gaze from the heavens to aid his Empire in it's time of need, and when it was over, when the treaty was signed. The Emperor turned his back on his allies from the Blades (who some members of the Order of Talos), Hammerfell, and to the children of Skyrim.

People who do not understand the necessity of the concordat don't understand war either. You see, when you enter a war you make plans. When things don't turn out as expected, you change them. So when the Aldmeri Dominion is about to wipe you off of the face of the earth, it is just stupid not to adapt yourself to that situation.
Sadly, there weren't many alternatives. The only thing the Empire could do was to sign a temporarily peace treaty. Was the Talos ban plopsty? Yes. Was the banning of the blades plopsty? Yes. But how naive are you if you expect your enemy - who was winning the war - to set up a treaty in your favor?
You see, there were two different outcomes. Either the Empire would sign a plopsty treaty, so it could get the time to gain strength and to rebuild their forces - or it would fight a useless battle until the very last man, woman and child were left standing. And then the Empire is gone, and thus your banner against the Aldmeri Dominion. Then it's Skyrim VS the AD - and let me tell you something, Skyrim is not going to win that.


Mede II probably signed the treaty, that was very much like the first treaty, out of fear. Out of fear of the death of his Empire.
He signed the treaty for the same reasons countries surrendered to Nazi Germany in WWII: they didn't stand a chance and continuing the fight would mean the unnecessary death of many. I think an Emperor who doesn't "fear" that an entire continent will be taken over by the Aldmeri Dominion, would be a very dumb man?


Ulfric probably only really desired to be High King because he saw none that were strong enough to rule his homeland.
Ulfric wanted to be High King because Ulfric likes Ulfric. But if you mean "strong" as in: 'being so proud that you are willing to sacrifice the lives of many people just because you can't see that you are losing a war' - then yes. What would you prefer? That there was no WGC? That the Empire would've fought until it got destroyed? Do you understand what happens when you lose a war? Then you're completely dependent on your enemy's mercy. If the Empire would get crushed, the Thalmor could march into Skyrim and they could literally do whatever they want.


That none could protect Skyrim's "heart, and soul" I believe his ambition is clear, and noble.
If his ambition would be to make Skyrim a better place, then yes. But many people think that's not the case. I am going to quote DrunkenMage here: "Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a dormant asset while the Civil War rages, does he become an active asset after victory? The Thalmor seem to believe direct contact with him remains a possibility. Who knows what they programed into that little Nord brain of his, when they broke and remade him. The man is emotionally and selfishly motivated. Not once did he attempt a diplomatic approach, even two of his major followers consider him selfish and merely after the throne.
If his own followers believe he's selfish and power-hungry, why can't you see it? Are you saying you know Ulfric better than those who most likely knew him for over a decade? They have no reason to lie, or slander him. They're not Imperial supporters, one of them is an extreme devout Stormcloak believer, the other dislikes the Empire strongly. Even Ralof, one of the Stormcloak soldiers mentions he's heard things about Ulfric he doesn't like"

I also believe that the treaty was signed to help protect the Empire. A dream worthy of dutiful protection. There is no clear answer, both the Emperor Mede II and Ulfric have slander across them, marking them as imperfect and flawed by nature.
Every person is imperfect. Using that as an argument against one of the two won't make your point. It doesn't justify bad deeds done by Ulfric.
If you think Mede II sucks, then fine. But why should an entire Empire fall because of one bad Emperor? 'Obama is a bad president, the USA has to fall'. He will be replaced by someone else. Ulfric, however, is the very core of his organization.

There are too few of ways to keep these two nations at peace without war, and without the Dargonborn's interference, I believe that these two factions would fight until a new Emperor ascended to the Ruby Throne and Ulfric's heir became High King. I am not sure talks would then commence but if they did, I am sure some sort of peace could be found. Then again, that could just be a fool's hope.
The rebellion honestly is not much of a big deal for the Empire. There are the Legionnaires who are stationed in Skyrim that fight the Stormcloaks. But except for sending general Tullius to the province, there isn't much the Empire bothered doing.

But with the threat of a pending assault of the Aldmeri dominion, all of Tameriell is going to need to join forces to beat back the elven forces. I would hope that if the Stormcloaks did find victory, that they would join in the battle of the age, repealing Aldmeri Dominion out for good.

The Aldmeri Dominion conquered a fair chunk of the province and almost wiped out the Empire. A local rebellion does not stand a chance. They're outnumbered. And that's an understatement.
 

W'rkncacnter

Mister Freeze
The Aldmeri Dominion conquered a fair chunk of the province and almost wiped out the Empire. A local rebellion does not stand a chance. They're outnumbered. And that's an understatement.
And yet, Hammerfell was able to repel the invaders despite the Empire turning their back on them.

Don't underestimate a small number of folks protecting their homeland.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
The Aldmeri Dominion conquered a fair chunk of the province and almost wiped out the Empire. A local rebellion does not stand a chance. They're outnumbered. And that's an understatement.
And yet, Hammerfell was able to repel the invaders despite the Empire turning their back on them.

Don't underestimate a small number of folks protecting their homeland.
Yes, but Hammerfell is a much more organized and their warriors are considered the best in Tamriel. What does Skyrim have going for it? A bunch of yokels that can't even decide whether to pl*** or get off the pot? After all, their afterlife is a frat party. What does that say about them?

(Note: I always play Nords. Luv 'em. And I don't play 'em as stupid, idealistic dingalings without a grasp of basic political and war theory).
 

W'rkncacnter

Mister Freeze
Yes, but Hammerfell is a much more organized and their warriors are considered the best in Tamriel. What does Skyrim have going for it? A bunch of yokels that can't even decide whether to pl*** or get off the pot? After all, their afterlife is a frat party. What does that say about them?

(Note: I always play Nords. Luv 'em. And I don't play 'em as stupid, idealistic dingalings without a grasp of basic political and war theory).
Ah, but Ulfric seeks to unite Skyrim. So, assuming the Stormcloak victory that was originally postulated, Skyrim would be united under Ulfric and the various holds would be headed by Ulfric supporters. So you can't take the state of confused civil war as a permanent situation from which to base your judgement.

Ultimately, Skyrim leaving the Empire weakens the Empire but I don't know that it would necessarily weaken Skyrim. What does the Empire actually do for Skyrim?
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
Yes, but Hammerfell is a much more organized and their warriors are considered the best in Tamriel. What does Skyrim have going for it? A bunch of yokels that can't even decide whether to pl*** or get off the pot? After all, their afterlife is a frat party. What does that say about them?

(Note: I always play Nords. Luv 'em. And I don't play 'em as stupid, idealistic dingalings without a grasp of basic political and war theory).
Ah, but Ulfric seeks to unite Skyrim. So, assuming the Stormcloak victory that was originally postulated, Skyrim would be united under Ulfric and the various holds would be headed by Ulfric supporters. So you can't take the state of confused civil war as a permanent situation from which to base your judgement.

Ultimately, Skyrim leaving the Empire weakens the Empire but I don't know that it would necessarily weaken Skyrim. What does the Empire actually do for Skyrim?
Ulfric seeks to "cleanse" Skyrim - not unite it. He wants no-one but Nords there and would happily commit genocide against every other race or beast race there that he couldn't enslave.

A "pure" Skyrim is not a good Skryim in my opinion. It is just a bland, boring place full of loud mouth xenophobes and the walking dead that will fall almost immediately to any invader. Don't forget that the Empire only has a couple of legions in Skyrim, that is how unimportant it is. Ulfic has no respect for anyone or anything that is not a "Nord" (and chances are he doesn't respect his fellow Nords very much either).

What can Ulfic offer? Weak leadership and more violence?
 

W'rkncacnter

Mister Freeze
So does he lie through his teeth when speaking to Galmar? Is the whole speech a ruse for the sole purpose of deceiving a person (the player) who he hasn't even been introduced to?

Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Near as I can tell, Galmar is more the warmonger than Ulfric.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
So does he lie through his teeth when speaking to Galmar? Is the whole speech a ruse for the sole purpose of deceiving a person (the player) who he hasn't even been introduced to?

Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Near as I can tell, Galmar is more the warmonger than Ulfric.
I do agree. I do not deny that some of what he says nearly brought me to tears, but given the totality of his actions, what he says and overall attitude, I cannot believe him.

He murdered a boy. Simply walked in to the Throne room in Solitude and murdered him using an unfair advantage that there was no defense for. I do not buy the BS that he "challenged" him in the Nord tradition. Every reaccounting that I hear throughout the game is that he simply walked in and murdered the boy. That's it. There was not challenge. A challenge is between two equals, not between someone with all the power and someone without.

I only wish they had cut Ulfric down then and there while his Voice recovered. You'd think at least Cybelle would have. She isn't even human.
 

Caideus

Member
All I was trying to say is that there is no easy answer, I know you are a die hard Empire supporter and that's fine. I did say that the Empire is a dream that deserves protection and unwavering loyalty to ensure it's survival. I also understand the need for a peace treaty after such an large scale of an attack. I do not approve of Ulfric's killing of the High King Torygg, there were other alternatives. One of them being would to take Torygg and train him maybe…

The man is emotionally and selfishly motivated.
Who isn't?

If you think Mede II sucks, then fine. But why should an entire Empire fall because of one bad Emperor?
Killing Mede II or separating from the Empire will not cause the power in Cyrodill to collapse. I actually believe some good may come from it, on way or another.

I think an Emperor who doesn't "fear" that an entire continent will be taken over by the Aldmeri Dominion, would be a very dumb man?
You're right, but we know that there were warnings coming in, from the Blades and other sources. These were ignored until it was to late. But if your home was invaded, and you had only the two options, to fight or live under your oppressors? What would you do?

In this case though, The Emperor did not hold to his conviction and gave into that fear. This is what caused two rifts, one obviously Skyrim, and the other Hammerfell. Neither of these two nations would have surrendered to these invaders.

But you are mistaken to to claim that the rebellion is not much of a big deal. Some of the Stormclaoks are Legionaries, with so much training to offer. IF Skyrim won it's independence from the Empire, then you are looking at a much bigger deal.


Ulfric, however, is the very core of his organization.
This is true, but also wrong. Confusing isn't it? How can that be?
Ulfric is, physically. But the core of his organization is actually Talos. This is what people flock to, not to the man, but to the idea and dream of what Talos brought.

We have our leaders, some do not deserve such titles. Just like Ulfrc, his crimes are too great. Let's not forget High King Olaf, or better known as Olaf One-Eye. He had a bard put to death because of his tongue. This guy lied and manipulated his way to the Throne. He couldn't have been any better then Ulfric, could he?

Ulfric is an awful person and I seriously doubt he would actually see the rest of a his rule before meeting a dagger in his back.

I've spent too much time on this and have forgotten what point I was trying to make. Facts are, I go Imperial every time I make my play through, why? Because the Empire is our shield against those who would do us ill. It is worth more to me then just dutiful protection, it deserves the best in all races who would gladly call themselves citizens. As flawed as our Emperors have been before in the past, there is always that hope, that dream, that we may call it perfect, and that we will see to it that it grows to what we know it deserves.

and when it comes to Ulfric, I still say that the biggest agitator in the Stormcloak Regime is Galmar Stone-fist is put to death just as Ulfric deserves the death and rejection of Sovngarde.
 

Caideus

Member
So does he lie through his teeth when speaking to Galmar? Is the whole speech a ruse for the sole purpose of deceiving a person (the player) who he hasn't even been introduced to?

Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Near as I can tell, Galmar is more the warmonger than Ulfric.
I do agree. I do not deny that some of what he says nearly brought me to tears, but given the totality of his actions, what he says and overall attitude, I cannot believe him.

He murdered a boy. Simply walked in to the Throne room in Solitude and murdered him using an unfair advantage that there was no defense for. I do not buy the BS that he "challenged" him in the Nord tradition. Every reaccounting that I hear throughout the game is that he simply walked in and murdered the boy. That's it. There was not challenge. A challenge is between two equals, not between someone with all the power and someone without.

I only wish they had cut Ulfric down then and there while his Voice recovered. You'd think at least Cybelle would have. She isn't even human.


If you ask Sybille Stentor, she tells you that Ulfric had indeed issued the challenge to Torygg
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
One thing to note: Ulfric won't make a move against Solitude if either
the wedding of the Emperor's cousin
or
the Emperor himself
are in Skyrim, for fear of drawing the full wrath of the Empire in HIM and HIS rebels.
 

Daelon DuLac

How do you backstab a Dragon?
So does he lie through his teeth when speaking to Galmar? Is the whole speech a ruse for the sole purpose of deceiving a person (the player) who he hasn't even been introduced to?

Near as I can tell, Galmar is more the warmonger than Ulfric.
I do agree. I do not deny that some of what he says nearly brought me to tears, but given the totality of his actions, what he says and overall attitude, I cannot believe him.

He murdered a boy. Simply walked in to the Throne room in Solitude and murdered him using an unfair advantage that there was no defense for. I do not buy the BS that he "challenged" him in the Nord tradition. Every reaccounting that I hear throughout the game is that he simply walked in and murdered the boy. That's it. There was not challenge. A challenge is between two equals, not between someone with all the power and someone without.

I only wish they had cut Ulfric down then and there while his Voice recovered. You'd think at least Cybelle would have. She isn't even human.


If you ask Sybille Stentor, she tells you that Ulfric had indeed issued the challenge to Torygg
Really? I did not do that. I guess I've never asked her. Hmm.... dern vamp. :)
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I do agree. I do not deny that some of what he says nearly brought me to tears, but given the totality of his actions, what he says and overall attitude, I cannot believe him.

He murdered a boy. Simply walked in to the Throne room in Solitude and murdered him using an unfair advantage that there was no defense for. I do not buy the BS that he "challenged" him in the Nord tradition. Every reaccounting that I hear throughout the game is that he simply walked in and murdered the boy. That's it. There was not challenge. A challenge is between two equals, not between someone with all the power and someone without.

I only wish they had cut Ulfric down then and there while his Voice recovered. You'd think at least Cybelle would have. She isn't even human.


If you ask Sybille Stentor, she tells you that Ulfric had indeed issued the challenge to Torygg
Really? I did not do that. I guess I've never asked her. Hmm.... dern vamp. :)


It was still not a duel though, as Ulfric used the shout and then stabbed him, just to make it look like there was.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And yet, Hammerfell was able to repel the invaders despite the Empire turning their back on them.

Hammerfell fought a weakened Aldmeri Dominion. Largely due to success from the Legions, that weakened the Aldmeri in Hammerfell. During the war the Aldmeri made a gamble for all of Cyrodiil. In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

As for Hammerfell.

4E 173

The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.

4E 174

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

Hammerfell only fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, and formed a treaty with the Thalmor allowing Dominion forces to withdraw from Southern Hammerfell. It came at great cost, Hammerfell was largely devastated.

Don't underestimate a small number of folks protecting their homeland.

Stormcloaks aren't protecting their homeland. They're going to invade the Aldmeri Dominion.

Tullius says it well. "But you're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions."

Near as I can tell, Galmar is more the warmonger than Ulfric.

Ulfric does things for image, willing to toy with a man's life.

"Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
"Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"

Ulfric is a manipulative politician. If you listen to his end speech, about returning to traditions and the moot and what not. You catch him talking to Galmar after.

"To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future! And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Stormcloaks have a good cause, and valid arguments.

I personally, just can't follow someone who is interested in a better story of himself. Some people have no issues, but that is just me.
 

W'rkncacnter

Mister Freeze
Stormcloaks have a good cause, and valid arguments.

I personally, just can't follow someone who is interested in a better story of himself. Some people have no issues, but that is just me.
I can understand this. I was mostly playing devil's advocate.

However, if you think about it, are we (the player) not like Ulfric? We want the dramatic moment and the better song. We play for each epic moment (unless you decide to RP a merchant or something generic). We storm a camp full of bandits and lay waste, glorying in the dead lying at our feet moments later. We are essentially interested in a better story of ourselves - that is why we continue to play.
 

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