The Patient Protection and the Affordable Care Act
- Thread starter Medea
- Start date
Medea
The Shadow Queen
Are you guys getting mad? Republican SMASH!! haha
Even though I was reluctant to look at your link after being called a "delusional jackass", I skimmed over the Forbes article. Forbes, btw, is a magazine written with a heavy republican bias, since it is mostly about supporting big business and creating a plutocracy. Talk about buying into bullplops.....
Let me take this "idea" as an example of why they don't really have ideas, a direct link off of the article you submitted:
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...Group_id=7a55cb96-4639-4dac-8c0c-99a4a227bd3a
Now skim down to the "Key Points" section of the article.
"Give every american the resources and right to purchase healthcare in a free market"
In other words, get everyone back on the system we had before, and how exactly are we going to give every american the 'resources' to do this? Are the rich going to give money to poor people who can't afford heath insurance? Oh.....I forgot....that's socialism!
"End tax code discrimination against those who cannot get insurance through their employer by giving a flat tax break to every american"
This makes me want to lol. Tax code discrimination? Those poor, discriminated against rich people. 'OH NOES! They have to pay more taxes than the rest of us so they can't afford to give their employers insurance' ummmm...let me just say...BULL F*UCKING pl*ps!!!! They pay LESS of a tax rate than the rest of us. Some corporations pay no taxes at all due to write-offs. Their f*ucking GREED is the only reason we needed healthcare reform in the first place.
"Encourage individuals to take control and become smart about health insurance"
Yeah, because that's what corporate america wants you to do, 'get smart and take control'. Another eye-rolling statement. You actually call this an idea?! LOL
"Eliminate the current cost shift in the healthcare market that drives up costs for everyone"
You mean regulations? Are they actually suggesting that we go against the will of the almighty free market and put regulations in place that would eliminate the costs that are a result of a competitive economy? Wow....sounds like a democrat talking.
"Ensure piece of mind about affordable, high-quality health insurance for all Americans"
Yeah, because they really did a good job of it so far. That goes for ANY idea that EITHER side has had about healthcare reform. Here's an idea, why don't we give the same healthcare to everyone, that we give to every prisoner in the country, for free?
No, we can't do that. Because this is what republicans in DC really want:
Work like a slave your whole life.
Don't ask questions.
Don't question rich people and company owners. They are BETTER THAN YOU.
Buy things, including health insurance. Have you seen our pamphlet?
If you can't afford to get insurance, get ANOTHER job, lazy ass!
If you get sick and you still can't afford your healthcare costs, just die!
If you aren't a productive member of society (slave) then you aren't worth anything anyway.
"We will take care of you when you are a fetus and when you get rich later in life, but any other time in-between you are on your own! Have a nice day! And Remember kids, Obama is the Anti-Christ!"
Even though I was reluctant to look at your link after being called a "delusional jackass", I skimmed over the Forbes article. Forbes, btw, is a magazine written with a heavy republican bias, since it is mostly about supporting big business and creating a plutocracy. Talk about buying into bullplops.....
Let me take this "idea" as an example of why they don't really have ideas, a direct link off of the article you submitted:
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...Group_id=7a55cb96-4639-4dac-8c0c-99a4a227bd3a
Now skim down to the "Key Points" section of the article.
"Give every american the resources and right to purchase healthcare in a free market"
In other words, get everyone back on the system we had before, and how exactly are we going to give every american the 'resources' to do this? Are the rich going to give money to poor people who can't afford heath insurance? Oh.....I forgot....that's socialism!
"End tax code discrimination against those who cannot get insurance through their employer by giving a flat tax break to every american"
This makes me want to lol. Tax code discrimination? Those poor, discriminated against rich people. 'OH NOES! They have to pay more taxes than the rest of us so they can't afford to give their employers insurance'
ummmm...let me just say...BULL F*UCKING pl*ps!!!! They pay LESS of a tax rate than the rest of us. Some corporations pay no taxes at all due to write-offs. Their f*ucking GREED is the only reason we needed healthcare reform in the first place."Encourage individuals to take control and become smart about health insurance"
Yeah, because that's what corporate america wants you to do, 'get smart and take control'. Another eye-rolling statement. You actually call this an idea?! LOL
"Eliminate the current cost shift in the healthcare market that drives up costs for everyone"
You mean regulations? Are they actually suggesting that we go against the will of the almighty free market and put regulations in place that would eliminate the costs that are a result of a competitive economy? Wow....sounds like a democrat talking.
"Ensure piece of mind about affordable, high-quality health insurance for all Americans"
Yeah, because they really did a good job of it so far. That goes for ANY idea that EITHER side has had about healthcare reform. Here's an idea, why don't we give the same healthcare to everyone, that we give to every prisoner in the country, for free?
No, we can't do that. Because this is what republicans in DC really want:
Work like a slave your whole life.
Don't ask questions.
Don't question rich people and company owners. They are BETTER THAN YOU.
Buy things, including health insurance. Have you seen our pamphlet?
If you can't afford to get insurance, get ANOTHER job, lazy ass!
If you get sick and you still can't afford your healthcare costs, just die!
If you aren't a productive member of society (slave) then you aren't worth anything anyway.
"We will take care of you when you are a fetus and when you get rich later in life, but any other time in-between you are on your own! Have a nice day! And Remember kids, Obama is the Anti-Christ!"
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
Are you guys getting mad? Republican SMASH!! haha
Even though I was reluctant to look at your link after being called a "delusional jackass", I skimmed over the Forbes article. Forbes, btw, is a magazine written with a heavy republican bias, since it is mostly about supporting big business and creating a plutocracy. Talk about buying into bullpl***.....
Let me take this "idea" as an example of why they don't really have ideas, a direct link off of the article you submitted:
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...Group_id=7a55cb96-4639-4dac-8c0c-99a4a227bd3a
Now skim down to the "Key Points" section of the article.
"Give every american the resources and right to purchase healthcare in a free market"
In other words, get everyone back on the system we had before, and how exactly are we going to give every american the 'resources' to do this? Are the rich going to give money to poor people who can't afford heath insurance? Oh.....I forgot....that's socialism!
"End tax code discrimination against those who cannot get insurance through their employer by giving a flat tax break to every american"
This makes me want to lol. Tax code discrimination? Those poor, discriminated against rich people. 'OH NOES! They have to pay more taxes than the rest of us so they can't afford to give their employers insurance'
"Encourage individuals to take control and become smart about health insurance"
Yeah, because that's what corporate america wants you to do, 'get smart and take control'. Another eye-rolling statement. You actually call this an idea?! LOL
"Eliminate the current cost shift in the healthcare market that drives up costs for everyone"
You mean regulations? Are they actually suggesting that we go against the will of the almighty free market and put regulations in place that would eliminate the costs that are a result of a competitive economy? Wow....sounds like a democrat talking.
"Ensure piece of mind about affordable, high-quality health insurance for all Americans"
Yeah, because they really did a good job of it so far. That goes for ANY idea that EITHER side has had about healthcare reform. Here's an idea, why don't we give the same healthcare to everyone, that we give to every prisoner in the country, for free?
No, we can't do that. Because this is what republicans in DC really want:
Work like a slave your whole life.
Don't ask questions.
Don't question rich people and company owners. They are BETTER THAN YOU.
Buy things, including health insurance. Have you seen our pamphlet?
If you can't afford to get insurance, get ANOTHER job, lazy ass!
If you get sick and you still can't afford your healthcare costs, just die!
If you aren't a productive member of society (slave) then you aren't worth anything anyway.
"We will take care of you when you are a fetus and when you get rich later in life, but any other time in-between you are on your own! Have a nice day! And Remember kids, Obama is the Anti-Christ!"
There is nobody on this forum that is important enough for me to get mad at except Joe. I get that you hate/are jealous of rich people because they have life easier. But think about this, look up the net worth of the Obamas, Pelosi, Reid and whatever other politician you choose (party doesn't really matter here) and tell me...do you seriously think that they are going to pass any legislation that will do anything more than drive a wedge further in between the haves and have nots in this country?
Medea
The Shadow Queen
Jealous...Don't make me laugh. I just hate the way they are screwing the have-nots. I have a pretty easy life and I'm comfortable with what I have. I'm not a greedy bastard that lives beyond my means even though I have millions of dollars, then figure out ways to screw more of the lower class people out of money so I can afford to pay for my multiple mansions and luxury sports cars.
The difference is that Obama and democrats in general are actually trying to get some laws passed to help poor people. They might not always get things like that passed, but at least they are trying. Too many republicans are fighting democracy itself just to stop them from passing laws they were elected to pass.
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
What flavor kool aid is that you're drinking?
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
Seriously though, based on their income high level democratic politicians are in the tax bracket that you say aren't doing enough for the poor in this country, but then you turn around and say that these are people helping America. Which is it? You can't be part of the problem and part of the solution and to be quite honest I don't see a Gandhi or Mother Teresa in the group.
Medea
The Shadow Queen
That is just illogical. The rich democrats you are talking about made it to the top utilizing capitalism, a system you and I both live under and one I actually support, despite what you might believe. I just think we need more regulations, higher taxes for the rich or an elimination of tax loopholes that they use, and the right to free heathcare, which the ACA STILL does not address to my satisfaction. It is more mandated than I would like, but a step in the right direction.
Many of those democrats, despite being in the top tax bracket, want to help poor people. It's an undeniable fact. Just look at the policies. More taxes on the rich. More government aid. Healthcare reform designed to help the poor. Not to mention, all of these policies are viciously attacked by the right-wing media.
No one can name the last time republicans wanted to help the bottom 98%. Not with the policies they have been enacting or blocking.
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
How is it illogical? They aren't passing laws or doing anything about closing loopholes because that doesn't benefit them. (I'm talking about both sides of the aisle.) The people that are most effected by the laws that are being passed are the middle class. Neither right nor left wing outlets give you the whole story. I find the best option is to follow both and see what nuggets of truth made it through the filter. Personally I think making taxes a flat percentage would be the most fair to everybody and just do away with exemptions and loopholes all together. It would also make it possible to trim the fat out of the IRS. My whole problem with the ACA is that it is a mandate. That's it, otherwise I don't think I'd really have an issue with it.
KaitoGhost
Sea Sponge First Mate
Don't really feel like reading all the novelesque posts, but I will mention that quite a few people around here have suddenly been dropped by their insurance carriers.
WarriorMage
Hey! Someone stole my sweet roll!
Unless you're one of the millions of people (I've seen numbers as high as 12 million) who were dropped by their insurance companies.
Why don't the Democrats (and Republicans) who want to help the poor just donate? Why does it have to be mandated by the government? There are a lot of worthy charities whose sole purpose is helping the poor. Last I heard no one was preventing anyone from donating to them.
Medea
The Shadow Queen
It's because those policies were crap and didn't cover things in the mandates like ambulatory services, emergency services, maternity care, prescription drugs, rehabilitative services and pediatric services. The insurance companies knew that these policies were inadequate under the new laws. That's why they dropped customers. All the people who were dropped have to do is shop around and they will find a better policy now than they had before.
Donation is something one does on an individual basis. The ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, and other policies that help the poor like this are paid for by tax dollars. There is a significant difference. Tax money has to be used to give back to the public with government programs, and the sad truth is, most people would not help a poor person if they had a dollar to give. How many times do you see people walk by the homeless and not even spare them a penny?
WarriorMage
Hey! Someone stole my sweet roll!
As I recall, Obama said if you were happy with your current plan you could keep it. What if I'm a single male who doesn't care about maternity care or pediatric services and want to keep what I have? These people were dropped without being given the option to keep their plans.
So then why should I be forced into doing it through higher taxes?
Why?
I don't think that's true. I think most people are too jaded by what they consider to be "professional panhandlers" We have some here. They stand there with a "Will work for food" sign but when you offer them a job they say they'd rather panhandle.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/shane-warren-speegle-says_n_1694577.html
And it's all tax free. Taxes that could be used to support the government programs you've mentioned.
I do it all the time. (See above.) But I also work with my church's food distribution program. That way I know my time, money, and food are going to someone who needs it. Just because someone walks by someone without giving them money doesn't mean they're not donating elsewhere.
Medea
The Shadow Queen
Yeah, and the insurance companies dropped them, not Obama. People need to take a look at what is going on in this country and quit blaming Obama for everything. The insurance companies and corporations are allowed to just do whatever the hell they want with no repercussions. The blame is misplaced. Until we have a President AND Congress willing to fight against big business, it's only going to get worse.
Are you one of the people who is in the top tax bracket and make over 250,000 dollars a year? If you aren't, then you don't pay higher federal income tax. If you are, then most of the time you find a way to avoid paying taxes altogether.
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/05/a-bogus-tax-attack-against-obama/
Because if all tax money went to the military and the people who already have everything, there would be a rebellion. The government has to give back sometimes. That's just common sense.
I'm not going to deny the fact that there are professional panhandlers, but I'm also not going to deny that we have well over 20,000,000 people in this country that have no job. Not all of them are weasels trying to screw the system.
The real problem is that we have lost our manufacturing base to China. When China was allowed to join the WTO in 2001, under a bi-partisan decision by our government, they were supposed to play by the rules. Instead, they manipulated currency and started a campaign of job destruction in the US.
Then, greedy corporation CEOs shut down factories in america and opened them up in China to save money. We've lost over 57,000 factories in the US to China within the past 12 years. China does not have any environmental standards or regulations. They use child labor, and refuse workers the right to organize a union. In fact, if people even talk about it, they are imprisoned and forced to work in prison work camps. 91% of the products Walmart sells are made in China. 91%.
When factories go under, everything around them go under. The small businesses around the factory close down. It starts a domino effect.
This is the real reason we have lost jobs, not because people are lazy and don't want to work. Until we have BOTH executive and legislative branches of government who actually want to stop corporations from closing down and moving manufacturing to China, and are willing to impose restrictions on Chinese imports, the economy will never recover completely.
utael
Member
Its not the governments job to fight against the big corporations. The governments sole responsibility back when it was conceived was to PROTECT THIS COUNTRY FROM FOREIGN INVADERS. Anything else is an add on they've slowly built up. Its not just obama's fault its everyone. If maybe we educated ourselves better on our own law system and understood what voting someone in was going to mean we wouldn't need government to "monitor" big business. What happened to power of the people. When did we start working for our government instead of our government working for us...
Something I think will come up shortly (next 5-10 years) is similar to the quote from V for vendetta, "The people should not fear its government, the government should fear its people." They've grown to used to not having any consequences from the people over the actions they take in government. Want to talk about corruption in the government? Find out how many senators and congressmen and women are incumbents.
Something I think will come up shortly (next 5-10 years) is similar to the quote from V for vendetta, "The people should not fear its government, the government should fear its people." They've grown to used to not having any consequences from the people over the actions they take in government. Want to talk about corruption in the government? Find out how many senators and congressmen and women are incumbents.
PrisonerLizzie
Well-Known Member
Then don't support them personally if you don't believe in them. Don't decide, well I don't believe in this so you aren't allowed to believe in it either. The hardest part of that is organizing enough people to hurt the pocketbooks. But it should by no means be made into law because there are people who do support big business and that is their right just like it is yours not to.
Obama knew as far back as 2010 at least that people would lose their health insurance yet he repeatedly lied to the American people about it right up until the insurance companies were forced to drop several million people. Why lie about it?
This is my first post here, but I'm just going to jump right in. Why doesn't the government just stop taking too much tax money in the first place? If they did this, there would be no need for them to have to give back.
Medea, you make a lot of great points, and I understand why you feel the way that you do, I was a progressive liberal until a few years ago, I voted for Obama in his first term.
But a few points, the rich class have always subsidized the rest of the country, they have always contributed more tax money. Even if they work the loopholes to reduce their percentage paid, their total money paid to the government is much more than the middle or poor. it has also never been a problem getting them to buy health insurance, and as a group they are generally healthier than the middle or poor class, thus they use less benefits, or they purchase the catastrophy plans and pay out of pocket for basic health services (the upper middle class usually does this as well).
The people that are truly hurt by the ASA are the middle and lower middle class, and the upper portion of the poor class (the ones that make too much for medicaid, but not enough to be forced to purchase insurance, the ACA doesn't help them at all).
For example, I am in the lower middle class and am currently attending college to obtain my degree. My wife and I both work and we have two kids. Our cheapest premium option through the marketplace is $278 a month, after the subsidy, witha $6500 deductible, after the deductible our co-pay will be %40 to a maximum of $12500 yearly out of pocket.
First off, $278 a month is more than we can afford, if I drop out of college we could probably swing that part, but should I have to drop out of college just for health insurance? And now for the $6500 deductible, let's ignore the maximum out of pocket for a minute, along with the premium that adds up to $9836 a year, or roughly $819 a month. If something happens and we need to use our insurance for anything major, the ACA does nothing for me at all, I would still have to file for bankruptcy. So why should I bother?
I'm personally not going to pay $278 a month just for us to go the doctors office once a year each, that's rediculous. I'm going to pay the $95 dollar fine, and save up $1500 to be able to file for bankruptcy if anything major happens.
Medea
The Shadow Queen
Then I guess the right wingers in this country should just keep their personal opinions to themselves....just keep their mouths shut about how evil Obama and the government are. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And how exactly are you getting that I am telling everyone that they have to hate big business? I never said anyone had to agree with me. I suppose it's okay to talk bad about the government all day but not the ALMIGHTY "free" market? I think the government is the only thing we have left that even has a chance of stopping a plutocracy, because people are already brainwashed to think that capitalism is infallible.
No, I don't believe that. I think he actually thought it was going to work out that way for people, but it didn't. Just like when the Bush administration went on faulty intelligence that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. People called him a liar too. I was one of the few liberals that didn't, because I recognized it to be media sensationalism. Blaming the presidents for everything is like blaming Canada for the U.S. economy. Presidents are just charismatic public speakers with ideas nowadays. It's up to Congress and the people whether we go along with those ideas. No law is going to be perfect. Obama admitted recently that it was on "him". He didn't even have to say that. I can't remember Clinton or Bush taking the blame for anything, and I loved Clinton.
First of all, a 35% tax is not that big of a tax. We had a 90% top bracket tax rate under Eisenhower, a republican president. Look it up. And the real problem is the corporations do not even pay that amount. They use loopholes to avoid paying taxes at the same rates middle class people pay.
Also, you say that they pay more money to the government. Well, could that be because the top 2% of the richest individuals in this country own over 50% of the wealth? Most of the rich still don't pay the same tax RATE as everyone else. That is why democrats think it is unfair. We aren't suggesting a socialist revolution. Just pay your frickin' taxes like everyone else has to, at the rate of 35%.
Next, you talk about how wealthy people are generally "healthier" than the middle class. Ignoring the eugenics here... maybe it's because they have good health insurance? If a poor person gets a toothache he just waits for the tooth to fall out.
The people most hurt by the ACA are the rich and insurance companies. That's why you see such a backlash. Poor people and the middle class can't afford to pay for "anti-corporation" campaigns. Everywhere you turn the right-wing media is attacking affordable health insurance, or just anything that helps poor people really....unions, government aid, etc. It's asinine. I'm not suggesting the left-wing side of the media doesn't do the same thing to republican ideas. Just that anything that would help the poor is viciously attacked.
Am I the only liberal left in the forms? LOL
I realize that it's hard for poor and middle class people, even under the ACA, to afford health insurance. It sucks. But I still think it's a step in the right direction. Lets' also not forget what Obama had in mind from the get-go: To give everyone FREE health insurance paid for by taxes and eliminating other government programs we don't need, as well as cutting down on military spending. But the republicans wouldn't have that.
Anouck
Queen of Procrastination
I am not one of those people who think that people should be "punished" for being wealthy. I still believe that it requires a lot of hard work and dedication to get successful, and I also believe people deserve the money they've worked for.
But a certain percentage of taxes has a much bigger impact on people with a low income. Relatively speaking, the poor lose more money to taxes than rich people because their financial situation just isn't as good.
People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, the two richest men in the USA (correct me if I am wrong), think that people, and I quote, should "stop coddling the super-rich". Warren Buffet says that in 2010 he paid a federal tax bill of $6,938,744 - including the income tax as well as the payroll tax, which is only 17.4% of his taxable income and a lower percentage than was paid by the other people in his office whose tax burdens ranged from 33% to 41%. And Warren Buffett's secretary shouldn't pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett himself.
Some think that the idea imposing higher taxes on the super-rich as a measure to control fiscal deficit is of much debate and controversy. Some argue that this approach is counter-productive, leads to volatile revenues, and isn’t an effective measure to raise revenues as it takes resources away from job creators in the private sector, which will deter investors from starting new enterprises.
On the "job creators" thing, I'd like to note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. And what ha been happening since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.
You have a point there, and I agree. But you specifically name services that are more beneficial to the poor than the wealthy. For instance: infrastructure, transportation, education, research & developments are examples of things that are more useful the more you have. Airports benefit more from business people and those who can afford to travel, than people who don't have the money to do this.
There are also people who compare the rich paying more taxes to people with a big car paying more insurance. You have more, you pay for more.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
This is still better than that Patriot Act.
