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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by EvilCrazyCows, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Rimfaxe96

    Rimfaxe96 Well-Known Member

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    He'd probably denounce her boob size.
     
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  2. Hargood

    Hargood Defender of Helpless Kittens

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    I decided to drop in for a spell. It's been a long while so I wanted to see how'its going, look around, see how the threads are..


    .....874 pages.

    Eight hundred and seventy-four pages ?!?!?!?!?!?!



    ...



    874 People!!!!!!

    ..


    ochocientos setenta y cuatro páginas!!!!!!!!!!

    874 PAGES!!!!!!! :eek:
     
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  3. Rimfaxe96

    Rimfaxe96 Well-Known Member

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    You know, I read the book "The Great War" again and had some kind of 'revelation' while reading it.
    Basically, I think the guys from Bethesda are laughing their butts off whenever they read discussions like this one, 'cause they've already given us the solution:

    All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

    The only real solution is that Hammerfell and the Empire get their sh!t together and fight. The entire Empire, that includes Skyrim.
     
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  4. Mikulas Black-Blade

    Mikulas Black-Blade The Cave Bear

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    Provoked? Are you serious? Well no it wasn't my friend, The Snow Elves massacred the Nords because of the Eye of Magnus and because the Nords were growing too quickly, The only historians who say otherwise are some Elven ones and it can take you two seconds to figure out why that is. There were literally three surviving Nords from the Night of Tears the rest were mercilessly murdered. And don't you think if the Nords were provoking attack they would be more prepared to fight off a raid.

    Alright, shoot.

    He didn't slaughter "innocent Reachmen and Nords". theres two easy points to counter that, The Reachmen stole Markarth from us and ultimately slaughtered everyone who wasn't a Reachman in it. The Reachmen have a strict "No foreigner in the reach" Policy so it's likely they weren't on the road to become a recognized nation otherwise the Empire wouldn't have wanted it back. So no, he didn't slaughter innocent Nords because there were None to be slaughtered. Just as well there are Reachmen from the day's of the Markarth incident that still reside in Markarth, so no he didn't slaughter everyone and he didn't push his agenda on Jarl Igmund, who wasn't even the Jarl at the time. Lets not forget the One sealing remaining factor here, and that is that you are quoting a book that has an obvious political agenda, not an Imperial one, but a Forsworn one.

    when the moot favors Elisif, I agree, Damn the moot. Are you kidding me?
    "she'd hand Skyrim to the elves on a silver plate"- Ulfric Stormcloak.
    Hell she's already friends with Elenwen.

    Oh please, Ulfric is way more well versed in Nordic culture then Tulius, heres two easy things that say exactly that.
    1.) Hes A NORD, so I think he knows about his own culture
    2.) The Empire is not Nordic tradition, the Nords joined the Empire because Talos Stormcrown, Ysmir, Dragon of the North, was commanding it. We recognize power, this "Empire" is but a shadow of it's former self. It has given up Talos, and therefore, given up it's ties to Skyrim. This is why Ulfric, and many others side with him, when he say's exactly that.
    "If this was my Empire, I'd be able to worship whoever I damned well pleased. You wish to see an Empire without Talos? Without its soul? We should be fighting those witch-elves, not bending knee to them. The Emperor is nothing more than a puppet of the Thalmor. Skyrim needs a High King who will fight for her, and Whiterun needs a Jarl who will do the same."- Vignar Gray-Mane

    This Empire, has no more Nordic Principles then the New Gnisis Cornerclub in Windhelm. and that is to say there were Nordic Principles and now there isn't. They were drowned out by Elven Supremacy. That's not to say I hate the Cornerclub and wan't it to be Nord only, and Nord based, I'm just using it as an analogy.
     
  5. Raijin

    Raijin A Mage that loves a Templar

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    Care to share me the source of information that you're getting this from? Ysgramor a genocidal fool? you couldn't be more wrong.

    Full version of Night of tears: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Night_of_Tears_(book)

    It was also the site of terrible bloodshed, when the elves attempted to drive the Nords out of Skyrim, to succeed only in incurring their wrath in the form of Ysgramor and his fabled Five Hundred Companions, who swept the elves from Skyrim and firmly established it as the home of the Nords.

    What happened on that Night of Tears, when Saarthal was razed to the ground? What provoked the elves to such a deliberate, vicious attack, and what prompted such a severe response from the Nords?

    The true motives behind the Night of Tears have been obscured to us by the passage of time, but I believe this was not a simple war of territory, or of control of Skyrim. I believe that what happened was a significant event based around something very particular.

    The Nords found something when they built their city, buried deep in the ground. They attempted to keep it buried, but the elves learned of it and coveted it for themselves. Thus they assaulted Saarthal, their goal not to drive the Nords out but to secure this power for themselves. I believe Ysgramor knew something of what the elves would find under Saarthal, and rallied together his people to keep the elves from gaining it. When Nords once again controlled Skyrim, this power was buried deep below the earth and sealed away.

    Ysgramor was a bloody fricken hero and not a genocidal fool from preventing the elves from possessing such a powerful magical artifact that could of killed a lot of people if it was in the wrong hands.... uh like in this photo below.

    [​IMG]

    Galmar disagrees with you ;)

    When we've reclaimed our homeland from the Imperials, we'll take the fight to the Thalmor. They are the true enemy. Make no mistake.

    Wrong again. Igmund father hired Ufric to retake back the reach with an exchange of free worship of talos.

    http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00065c7b ;)

    Wrong again and again.

    I can finally agree to you. The Empire was founded on Nordic principles, however those principles was soon loss when the Emperor signed the WGC to outlaw Talos. This is what angered a lot of people. How can you disrespect the very same man who founded the Empire? Talos is the Empire. To ban the worship of Talos was treason.
     
  6. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    The Nords joined the Empire after General Talos defeated them at Sancre Tor. They didn't follow him because he was Dragonborn, in fact they fought against him after it was known he was the Dragonborn.

    They didn't like the tactics and methods of the Breton Battlemage Command. Their defeat made them swear fealty to Talos and betray their Breton allies.

    As for "this Empire" the Nords did join it. Skyrim itself endorsed the Mede Dynasty and Titus Mede as their Emperor, so saying they only joined because Talos was commanding it, is false. Especially since it wasn't the reason they joined and after the fall of the Septim Dynasty, the Nords wanted Mede as ruler.

    On an extra note the Empire has in fact become Nordic tradition, you do hear many Legionnaires talk about that their father and grandfather and so on was in the Legion, that it has become tradition for many sons. Skyrim has been part of the Empire for a very long time, you can't deny that the Empire is very much part of Nordic culture as Jarls, Moots, Companions etc.

    Skyrim and the Imperial Empire have intertwined so much, that the Nords in Oblivion and Morrowind are like a completely different race. The Imperial religion has taken over the Nordic pantheon, where even the Greybeards call Kyne by her Imperial name.
     
  7. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    Talos the God =/= Tiber Septim the man.

    Edit: He also never asked for worship, didn't build temples to himself, his dream was the Empire.

    Go to Riften under Stormcloak rule, speak with the Priests of Mara. Your character can only ask "Which of the Eight Divines do you serve?"

    Looks like you've betrayed Talos. On another mention, the Jarl that Stormcloaks place in Morthal worships the Eight.
     
  8. Jeremius

    Jeremius Guest

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    My newest nord barbarian scout is atheistic, as in no religious beliefs at all. He also believes that Sovengarde is a plane of oblivion ruled by some Daedra.
     
  9. Mikulas Black-Blade

    Mikulas Black-Blade The Cave Bear

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    didn't Balgruuf make the journey, as well as many others? Also I don't think that means they can't summon him I think that just means he became the Underking and he was the adviser of Pelagius I. Also, after the Warp of the west isn't it believed he reclaimed his heart?

    Again, a pity.

    No one is coming to Ulfric's aid against the Empire. Hammerfell, Morrowind and High Rock all have very good reasons to just invade Skyrim while they're weak.[/quote]
    I doubt it, what good would it do. You even said Hammerfell is devastated. Morrowind might but I see no great way to invade, they'd have to cross armies across the Velothi mountains into certain death, If the cold doesn't kill them the Nords will. And High Rock is allied with the Empire and can't.

    Because of just that they were at the edges, They weren't directly befalling Valenwood, But you' are directly marching into it. You're marching dead on into the heart of the forest.

    This is Not because of the Thalmor or the Empire, It's because of the Green Pact, they'll be forced to use it to keep their bond with Y'ffree.

    The Aldmeri Counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad and it was unexpected. The fact remains that Tiber didn't foresee this and the Nord legions were forced to hold strong on their own and keep the Aldmeri at bay.

    Quite a few, but you lost so many men that after the battle you were simply in no shape to continue the fight.

    But I thought Race didn't matter, and now you're saying the Nords don't like Magic. See the problem?

    I suppose so.

    Of course, But Nordic culture is a Warrior Culture, They expect you to know these things, and Most Nords do.

    Really, tell me?

    Well then, in a way, race matters.

    I can't, because no one has been stupid enough to invade Valenwood in such a large force after Borgas, until Now.

    You would think the Empire would make sure that he know's his enemy inside and out, but he doesn't he relies on a single Nord Woman to get the basic's across.

    Actually I'm pretty sure that is what he's doing:
    Rikke: "General."
    Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."
    Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."
    Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."
    Rikke: "Yes, sir."
    Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
    Rikke: "Sir."
    Sure he listens to Rikke, but he doesn't seem to care and does like you said yap on not caring. He also say's he will never understand the Nords so there you go.

    Oh Well, Good for him, at the end of the war he finally came to respect the Nords as a people instead of a race of belligerent Barbarians. Does he wan't a cookie?

    Oh really? Please, explain to me why they wouldn't. After all this is the Aldmeri Dominion, pretty much the most powerful force at the time, please explain to me why they couldn't fell the great White Gold-Tower.

    When? The Oblivion Crisis? Hardly, Talos abandoning them, hell they had to use his blood to even get the amulet to work, without him Tamriel would've fallen victim to the tender mercy of Mehrunes Dagon.

    I find it infuriating that the Empire is so willfully ignorant of our pleas and our cause. Are you so washed up in your "Imperial Authority" to see that it's dying, its crumbling beneath you. Imagine if you will, the point of view of the Nords: Here we are, the Nords, strong, proud, and free. For centuries it was our pride and our independence that kept us alive. Enter Talos Stormcrown, Hjalti Early-Beard, the great Tiber Septim, who who fought with us, And, who fought against us, until we realized who he was: The Dragonborn, Ysmir, Dragon of the North. After this stunning event we fought for the Empire, for centuries. We fought to Conquer all of Tamriel. We fought and gave our blood to maintain your Imperial Authority in the Great War, and how did you repay us: Only by outlawing one of the most important gods in our, and your's for that matter, pantheon. Well... that's fair. Think about Jonna's legions, mostly Nord, fighting to maintain their way of life and the Empire's. Fighting long and hard in the Battle of the Red Ring and the many battles before it, and finally coming out victorious. Ready to keep the fight going, and then, silence. The White Gold Concordant is signed and all of that fighting, all of the blood, sweat, and tears, given those days and the many days, months, centuries before it, were for nothing. The Nords lose their right to worship Talos, the only reason they were in the Empire in the first place. Are you so blinded by the Emperors words that, even when they're wrong, you enforce them to the best of your ability and oppress us further. When your Emperor signed that Godsforsaken treaty you spat in our face. You allowed us to be forced into a harsh dictatorship by Elves. I hope you take this into consideration.

    Obviously we can't, because your Empire seems intent on making sure we can't.

    The counterattack was unexpected. It says so in the Great War. Or did you "conveniently" forget about that?

    They were aware of what was at stake, they knew what they were fighting for. What they didn't know was that there was going to be a counterattack from the west. Apparently Titus wasn't aware of that either.

    You keep telling yourself that.

    Because they're still animals, and Animals tend to do things in groups to further the existence of their species.

    They do, and i can guarantee you they will scope out some sort of significant weakness, or even weaknesses. They'll stay hidden, and most likely attack from the back to catch you off guard. Oh you'll fight them off as hard as you can, hack, and slash. And eventually, you will kill them, but thats not to say there won't be significant losses in your line. I almost forgot to mention the Bosmeri Archers that attack from the trees unexpectedly.

    Not every province has Basilisks and giant griffons/werevultures. Also I don't need a source for this, its a hypothetical that I proposed to you, that CAN happen. And who says they'll attack you head on, Snakes are known for stalking down their prey in a stealthy manner and then completely overpowering them or killing with venom. The same can be said about Basilisks except multiply the size by 50. As well Griffons probably have the same hunting style as Eagles except you would need to once again multiply the size by 50.

    Not Borgas, sorry, the Bosmer used it against the Khajiit in The Five Year War when they attempted to burn down Vindisi or that was expected. it ripped everything apart and was absolutely devastating.
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Dance_in_Fire,_Chapter_4

    Well, DO THEY?

    Less freedom, corruption in the Elder Council, Torture...

    After the war, Skyrim should have a decent ammount of time to train up their armies they won't be a militia anymore.

    Well, I agree with you there. Brina is the much better Jarl

    Right that's what I meant.

    Yes, That is MOST unorthodox! They should be Burnt at the stake for not complying with our Fashion quo. Most Unorthodox Indeed!!!

    And enough blind Imperials to go around, friend!

    Most sided with Talos after it was known that he was a Dragonborn. Other Nords, indeed, sided with the Bretons at the battle of Sancre Tor, they resisted Talos' rule.

    I'm sorry but with a name like "Hjalti Early-Beard", it makes it hard for me to believe he was a Breton. I mean were talking about people with names like

    The Companions? They show no support towards either side, Although if more support were to be lent it would likely go to the Stormcloaks because of Vignar.

    This is true, and I find it very strange that not a single Nord says anything about Kyne and rather calls her "Kynareth" who is actually a completely different goddess all together.[/quote]
     
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  10. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    Making the pilgrimage is one thing, going inside High Hrothgar is another.

    It makes no difference, they haven't summoned him and their dialogue doesn't suggest they ever plan to do so.

    Expansion, revenge for past atrocities? Hammerfell is devastated, or maybe they're not anymore. The Redguards have united for the first time in a very long time, and I believe they'll be a major factor in upcoming events.

    As for Morrowind, even the Empire is smart enough to have a staging point just in case. They can enter through the pass around the Rift. There is this entry way into Morrowind around where Fort Dawnguard is. I wouldn't claim certain death on them, the Dunmer are nothing but resourceful.

    Truthfully I have no idea what the Empire plans, they will or won't march into Valenwood. The Bosmer use the Great Hunt as a means of revenge or assassination.

    If they can even still do it, the Thalmor were conducting great purges of the Bosmer within Valenwood.

    They faced resistance, not unexpected surprise attacks.

    Yeah basically, it was the last gambit for the Empire. Take the city or lose the war. The final battle tends to be bloody.

    Race doesn't matter, this is a mindset. Not a thing you're born with. This comes from the Oblivion Crisis, Great Collapse and the Great War.

    They expect you to learn.

    Tell you what? That there are probably Bosmer warriors in TESO?

    Except Borgas had a different agenda and was assassinated by the Wild Hunt. By logic if the same thing would happen, the Bosmer would have started the Wild Hunt beforehand.

    Tullius was sent because he is good at fixing troublesome places. He doesn't need to know where Nords go when they die.

    What is your entire point? Because he didn't know the word 'Sovngarde' he is a crap Military Commander? Tullius is a very good General, he nearly ended the rebellion. Shocking how he almost crushed the rebellion without even knowing Sovngarde. How illogical.

    You're running out of arguments.

    Maybe they didn't try or maybe they didn't have enough time. Your whole "They needed a reason to keep the Empire in the fifth game" makes no sense. Why wouldn't the Empire be in the fifth TES?

    Talking about Morrowind. Also it was Tiber's blood needed to unlock the portal, not work the amulet. Do you even know what the Amulet of Kings was? After that remark, I doubt it.

    And yet, many Nords stand against Ulfric.

    The Empire was ignoring it, Nords and other races were free to worship Talos in secret. There are Eight other Gods, give them some attention.

    Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

    Where were the Nords hit by unexpected attacks?

    Nope. Proven wrong, again.

    Pack animals, not all animals.

    So you say without anything to back it up. Oh, the Bosmeri Archers... Well they can meet Imperial Rangers and Battlemages.

    And yet... They haven't been a problem for the Legion for hundreds of years while they were in Valenwood.

    It was revenge for Vindisi.

    Can you find anything that mentions armies avoid Valenwood?

    Freedom? Ulfric's ideology is "With us or against us" being neutral is the same as being the enemy. In fact in Season Unending being neutral is the same as Imperial.

    Ulfric takes over the country through military force, keeps the Jarls in check with Galmar. Ulfric also makes it very clear when telling off Galmar or Vignar that he, and he alone dictates the fate of Skyrim.

    The entire Elder Council isn't corrupt, you'll always get some. But one man doesn't have absolute power in the Empire, the provinces are represented in Imperial politics.

    Torture is universal in Tamriel, even Ulfric has torture equipment in his palace.

    No. They won't, which might not be a good thing like you hope. Siding with the Stormcloaks is a ticking time bomb.

    For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Skyrim

    ;)

    And enough blind Imperials to go around, friend!

    I didn't say he was Breton? Besides if I remember correctly, Talos is described as being short. I can't recall should be in the 'Real Barenziah' somewhere.

    The Companions are part of Nordic tradition, regardless of political views. They wouldn't lend aid to the Stormcloaks, not even for Vignar. They refuse to enter into wars, because it would divide the Companions into internal fighting. Not all of the Companions believe in one side, it would be shield brother vs shield brother if they tried to pick a side.

    They have more in common with Imperials than they'd like to believe.
     
  11. Vatonage

    Vatonage Maréchal des hussards

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    More like if the Empire wasn't in the Fifth one, all of Tamriel would be conquered by the Thalmor. Game over.
     
  12. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    Not only that, but Bethesda would lose their entire plot line for Skyrim. I honestly just don't see "Devs needed a reason to keep the Empire" being applied to the Thalmor's actions at White-Gold Tower. Destroying Nirn isn't something Bethesda would do, that is the major reason the Thalmor won't win. Or perhaps they're not planning to end the world just yet.

    There would also be too large a plot hole if the Empire was gone in TES V. How would they just destroy the one thing that has been in all the games, without showing it's downfall or decline?

    The last time we saw the Empire, things were looking uncertain at the end of Oblivion, but hopeful. Prior to Skyrim, with the release of the novels, you learn the Empire is doing fairly well at the end.

    Next game it may be gone, but if it was gone in Skyrim... It'd be too soon and probably not well explained without understanding the situation.
     
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  13. LegateFasendil

    LegateFasendil Imperial Legate

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    Oh yeah. On my way out the door here I almost forgot about something. That will never do. Well you don't want to leave anyone out you know?


    Even better than the energizer bunny ~ I gots 99 problems but you still ain't won!!! XD​
    Farewell friends.​

    "Surrender while you still can." Hahaha ah-haa!​
    LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE
     
  14. Raijin

    Raijin A Mage that loves a Templar

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    Shouldn't that woman Dragonborn be cooking Legate Fasendil meals instead of fighting with him? She should be arrested and taken to Cindah mine to be retaught on her place in the packing order. She should become Fasendil maid when she gets discharged from prison.

     
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    LegateFasendil: 3 Points (Couple of years ago I would have been like nu-uh! Now, I couldn't agree more!!! XD Well done.) Jul 30, 2014
  15. Raijin

    Raijin A Mage that loves a Templar

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    LegateFasendil Looks like that nord Dragonborn woman is seeking out a suitable husband out in the wilds. By Nordic custom this is how Nord women act when they're courting their future husbands. It's part of the mating ritual for Nords... To fight with their future husbands to determine if hes strong and can bare strong children.

     
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  16. Raijin

    Raijin A Mage that loves a Templar

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    Oh my god this thread is finally dead! Bring out the bagpipes!

     
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  17. Jeremius

    Jeremius Guest

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    People actually just got bored of you.
     
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  18. Rimfaxe96

    Rimfaxe96 Well-Known Member

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    I actually got another trick up my sleeve to keep this thread going, but you know, for now I'll just sit here with a glass of wine, and wait for other Imperial sympathizers to continue the show.
     
  19. Vatonage

    Vatonage Maréchal des hussards

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    Oh golly, I can't wait to see what ideas the Imperials and Stormcloaks will whip up in round...2? 3? 201?

    Maybe the Stormcloaks will make a comeback?

    Maybe the Imperials will keep the lead?

    Maybe they'll stop arguing and play Skyrim?

    Who knows? I'm entertained just by observing it.
     
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  20. Jeremius

    Jeremius Guest

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    More like 2001.
     
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