DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I feel like attacking some more Stormcloaks, but these forums lack many. So I'll attack Bethsoft Stormcloak arguments. Which they tend to use, from a document they call 'Handy Debate Links'.
Bear of Markarth is propaganda! - Which they go on to use Igmund's dialogue and the fact a man's daughter was executed couple years after the Markarth Incident, and a Silver-Blood journal. Also I've debated with one here before.
Okay so lets take a look, Igmund's dialogue. They promised Nord Militia free worship. This disproves the Empire did, well no, Igmund's family was part of the Empire. Also when the Legions returned Ulfric would of had to make sure they agreed to it also.
Man's daughter was executed by Igmund, thus Ulfric is suddenly innocent! Well an execution years after an incident is hardly evidence to discount Ulfric's involvement. It would actually go around the time Igmund's father was killed by the Forsworn (Which was after the Markarth Incident) Not surprised Igmund would find a reason to execute someone who had spoken with the Forsworn ruler.
Silver-Blood's journal says he stopped the Jarl from executing the Forsworn King. Therefor Ulfric was not involved! Well as the Jarl of the city, executing the leader of the uprising would of been his given right.
Another reason, which was brought to me when a member of Bethsoft came into this thread. "Ulfric wouldn't do that because it would harm recruitment!" Well Ulfric wasn't recruiting, he wasn't even preparing rebellion back then. His motives in 4E 201, aren't the same in 4E 176.
Why is the Bear of Markarth not propaganda? Well allow me to explain, there is a passage in the book. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips Now that sounds very familiar, where have we heard something like that before... The Palace of the Kings during the Civil War. We also hear it phrased differently by every Stormcloak Officer about 'How does one join the Stormcloaks?'
Now that is interesting. For mere propaganda, how on earth is there that similarity? Unless, there is truth in the Bear of Markarth. Bethesda would not have put that in there for no reason, that subtle hint. The fact many Stormcloaks compare Bear of Markarth to 'Nords Arise' is laughable. The only Imperial propaganda in-game is to do with the White-Gold Concordat supporting the banning of Talos.
Empire's ethnocentrism - Tullius saying without us, the provinces would fall into lawlessness and barbarism. Where he mentions Ulfric's rebellion as an example.
Well, considering the Stormcloak Officers have Bear Heads for hats? I'm not surprised. Without the Legions hand, we have what, deer head wearing people to the west, bear head wearing people to the east. I would call that fairly savage and barbarism.
Dengeir is a good Jarl! - Oh, well that makes it better. One good Jarl and you're left with what? The Jarl in Riften who has no power and talks about fleeing the city, the Jarl in Dawnstar who what, would throw every last man, women and child into the blades of trained Legionnaires before losing. Who also won't prepare for Dragon attack, when his city is one of the most exposed in the province. Smart. You have the Jarl in Winterhold, not caring about attempting to rebuild his city, and he blames the Mages for the cold. Then what, Silver-Blood Jarl? Because enslaving the natives of the Reach is a good thing.
Ulfric spies in Solitude - He's got spies? Well good for him, the Empire has hundreds if not thousands.
Imperials are racist too! - Shows links of NPC's from Oblivion... two hundred years ago. Well nobody said racism is just a Stormcloak thing, also the Stormcloaks are the Government and Military. So random Civilians in Cyrodiil and one Countess who are racist somehow makes it alright? No. But you never saw racial segregation.
Elisif enjoys Thalmor parties! - Well free food, free drink, who wouldn't? Elisif would of been instructed to act happy at a party, especially when you got Elenwen hovering around you. Like the Grim Reaper, what do they expect, her to complain and moan? She's the future High Queen, diplomatic incidents are best avoided.
Ulfric's Argonian segregation possible reasons - Links going to dialogue from Rolf Stone-Fist, well he's the source of trustworthy information about racial equality. Another link going to Scouts-Many-Marshes who mentions he wishes everyone would get along.
Funny how they don't link the dialogue of Scouts-Many-Marshes welcoming the Empire and saying it was the Stormcloaks who caused the racial prejudice. Also the lack of dialogue from Free-Winter, saying the Argonians have to remain outside for their own safety against Nords who shared Ulfric's ideology.
Some more things in their Anti-Empire section. Two about the East Empire Trading Company, well the EETC is a merchant guild. Not an Empire controlled organization. So it'd be like saying the Stormcloaks are bad because the Nord shipping company in Windhelm is employing pirates to attack EETC ships.
Some more arguments of theirs I have seen - Empire is corrupt, not sending Tullius more soldiers. (I used this one, seeing how many here knew the counter.) If the Aldmeri Dominion won over Cyrodiil they can't invade Skyrim because Pale Pass is closed.
No. Pale Pass is currently being cleared by the Empire and a new Imperial force is assembling in Cyrodiil to reinforce Tullius, which threatens Stormcloak gains. So the Empire are in fact reinforcing General Tullius. Pale Pass actually gets cleared in Stormcloak victory, so their reason why the Aldmeri can't get to Skyrim if the Empire collapses is false.
The Empire Strikes Back
Bear of Markarth is propaganda! - Which they go on to use Igmund's dialogue and the fact a man's daughter was executed couple years after the Markarth Incident, and a Silver-Blood journal. Also I've debated with one here before.
Okay so lets take a look, Igmund's dialogue. They promised Nord Militia free worship. This disproves the Empire did, well no, Igmund's family was part of the Empire. Also when the Legions returned Ulfric would of had to make sure they agreed to it also.
Man's daughter was executed by Igmund, thus Ulfric is suddenly innocent! Well an execution years after an incident is hardly evidence to discount Ulfric's involvement. It would actually go around the time Igmund's father was killed by the Forsworn (Which was after the Markarth Incident) Not surprised Igmund would find a reason to execute someone who had spoken with the Forsworn ruler.
Silver-Blood's journal says he stopped the Jarl from executing the Forsworn King. Therefor Ulfric was not involved! Well as the Jarl of the city, executing the leader of the uprising would of been his given right.
Another reason, which was brought to me when a member of Bethsoft came into this thread. "Ulfric wouldn't do that because it would harm recruitment!" Well Ulfric wasn't recruiting, he wasn't even preparing rebellion back then. His motives in 4E 201, aren't the same in 4E 176.
Why is the Bear of Markarth not propaganda? Well allow me to explain, there is a passage in the book. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips Now that sounds very familiar, where have we heard something like that before... The Palace of the Kings during the Civil War. We also hear it phrased differently by every Stormcloak Officer about 'How does one join the Stormcloaks?'
Now that is interesting. For mere propaganda, how on earth is there that similarity? Unless, there is truth in the Bear of Markarth. Bethesda would not have put that in there for no reason, that subtle hint. The fact many Stormcloaks compare Bear of Markarth to 'Nords Arise' is laughable. The only Imperial propaganda in-game is to do with the White-Gold Concordat supporting the banning of Talos.
Empire's ethnocentrism - Tullius saying without us, the provinces would fall into lawlessness and barbarism. Where he mentions Ulfric's rebellion as an example.
Well, considering the Stormcloak Officers have Bear Heads for hats? I'm not surprised. Without the Legions hand, we have what, deer head wearing people to the west, bear head wearing people to the east. I would call that fairly savage and barbarism.
Dengeir is a good Jarl! - Oh, well that makes it better. One good Jarl and you're left with what? The Jarl in Riften who has no power and talks about fleeing the city, the Jarl in Dawnstar who what, would throw every last man, women and child into the blades of trained Legionnaires before losing. Who also won't prepare for Dragon attack, when his city is one of the most exposed in the province. Smart. You have the Jarl in Winterhold, not caring about attempting to rebuild his city, and he blames the Mages for the cold. Then what, Silver-Blood Jarl? Because enslaving the natives of the Reach is a good thing.
Ulfric spies in Solitude - He's got spies? Well good for him, the Empire has hundreds if not thousands.
Imperials are racist too! - Shows links of NPC's from Oblivion... two hundred years ago. Well nobody said racism is just a Stormcloak thing, also the Stormcloaks are the Government and Military. So random Civilians in Cyrodiil and one Countess who are racist somehow makes it alright? No. But you never saw racial segregation.
Elisif enjoys Thalmor parties! - Well free food, free drink, who wouldn't? Elisif would of been instructed to act happy at a party, especially when you got Elenwen hovering around you. Like the Grim Reaper, what do they expect, her to complain and moan? She's the future High Queen, diplomatic incidents are best avoided.
Ulfric's Argonian segregation possible reasons - Links going to dialogue from Rolf Stone-Fist, well he's the source of trustworthy information about racial equality. Another link going to Scouts-Many-Marshes who mentions he wishes everyone would get along.
Funny how they don't link the dialogue of Scouts-Many-Marshes welcoming the Empire and saying it was the Stormcloaks who caused the racial prejudice. Also the lack of dialogue from Free-Winter, saying the Argonians have to remain outside for their own safety against Nords who shared Ulfric's ideology.
Some more things in their Anti-Empire section. Two about the East Empire Trading Company, well the EETC is a merchant guild. Not an Empire controlled organization. So it'd be like saying the Stormcloaks are bad because the Nord shipping company in Windhelm is employing pirates to attack EETC ships.
Some more arguments of theirs I have seen - Empire is corrupt, not sending Tullius more soldiers. (I used this one, seeing how many here knew the counter.) If the Aldmeri Dominion won over Cyrodiil they can't invade Skyrim because Pale Pass is closed.
No. Pale Pass is currently being cleared by the Empire and a new Imperial force is assembling in Cyrodiil to reinforce Tullius, which threatens Stormcloak gains. So the Empire are in fact reinforcing General Tullius. Pale Pass actually gets cleared in Stormcloak victory, so their reason why the Aldmeri can't get to Skyrim if the Empire collapses is false.
The Empire Strikes Back