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Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by EvilCrazyCows, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    The Mede Dynasty saved Tamriel from Umbriel. Facing off legions upon legions of undead which assaulted the very walls of the Imperial City, devastated most of Black Marsh, all the while souls were taken and used to fuel the floating city, used even in their food.

    So, take your pick. Death by Daedra or No after life, but to be eaten in some twisted manner to please the stomach of a Lord.


    Skryim rarely remains united for long. Hence how Tiber Septim was able to take the Nords easily, due to their conflicting nature, they fight amongst themselves between clans and Jarls.

    So you also have the chance of dooming Skyrim's citizens to petty violent outbreaks, skirmishes between Jarls and Clans. For the province to descend into chaos, while Cyrodiil faces three provinces of the Aldmeri Dominion. If they lose, the Aldmeri could sweep into Skyrim. The Nords fearful of magic, and having no Battlemages, stand little chance against an army of many magic users.

    Fireball vs Axe dragging pelt wearers as the Nords are so politely referred as by other parts in Tamriel.
     
  2. Jeremius

    Jeremius Guest

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    Quite Jokingly: Both the Dunmer and the Nords are moronic if they think they are better than anyone else. Who else to teach the Nords a lesson but the Empire they despise? Humble pie for everyone!
     
  3. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    Which would you consider to be the greater danger? Petty crime that has always been in existence regardless of province or alliances or that of the Thalmor?

    I would hope that by now that the Jarls would have seen and recognize the greater danger in continued infighting with the existing threat of the Aldmeri Dominion. I also doubt the Aldmeri Dominion would attack during Ulfric's reign as High King. In all probability, it would be another hundred years of gathering before the threat of the Aldmeri Dominion became real. But even so, the Aldmeri Dominion would no longer have that element of surprise should they decide to attack once more.

    The Axe dragging pelt wearers, as you refer to so politely, who would attack Nord settlements will also have to face Ulfric's wrath, as stated in-game. Petty crime however, will always be a present no matter what province or allegiances that are made.

    But even so, we should not project the future with fears, even if some have real value. I know my arguement stands in conjecture, but it is of hope. But for hope, we must believe in the betterment of all races, we must also continue to believe in a unified Empire, but without condemning its citizens to the Thalmor prosecution.
     
  4. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    I would consider the two Aldmeri held provinces connected to Cyrodiil the greater danger.

    With the Civil Wars end, the Thalmor no longer have an excuse for the large inquisition they're currently conducting.

    Nords aren't sensible. They actually even attacked House Redoran during the threat of Daedric invasion, also were trying to remove Imperial forts on Solstheim.

    You have to understand what you're working with under Stormcloak Skyrim. You have the Jarl of Winterhold blaming the Mages for the cold. You have the Jarl of Dawnstar saying Dragons are only there because Talos is angry (Even though Dragons are connected to Akatosh, different Divine.) Not very bright. He has no care for preparing to protect his people.

    The next Great War is sooner than you think. The Aldmeri are already lining up their borders, same as the Empire. The Civil War is actually seen as a sideshow and interlude before the main event against the Thalmor. Be much, much sooner when the Empire and Dominion wage total war.

    'Axe dragging pelt wearers' is what some of Tamriel calls Nords. If the Aldmeri Dominion won over the Empire, then the Stormcloaks would be little match. It'll be many years before they can rebuild Skyrim, which they plan to.

    Even Ulfric worries about the Thalmor.

    "What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores." - Ulfric


    Edit: You should also know, the Thalmor don't require an official presence of their Justiciars to cause major damage. They've been infiltrating Cyrodiil and doing espionage for over a hundred and fifty years. Even in Skyrim they have Nord assets working for them, Khajiit too. Stormcloak regime doesn't have an Intelligence/Counter Intelligence group like the Empire does, which has been fighting the Thalmor from the shadows since the reign of Titus Mede the first.
     
  5. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    Imperials view themselves better than everyone else too. Not to mention they see their culture superior and their religion, also that without the Imperials or the Ruby Legions. It would all be chaos, cause the rest of Tamriel are barbarians and savages.

    Which is funny, cause when an Empire falls, Imperials are one of the most violent, chaos causing race. They go crazy, warlords popping up everywhere, wars between parts of Cyrodiil. Fractures in the Elder Council. Colovia West vs Nibenese East. Then when they're back to exploiting people of other provinces, they're all civilized and feel better.
     
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  6. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    With the end of the civil war, if Skyrim remains an Imperial provence then the Thalmor will continue to have official, political interest. Keeping there Justiciars in operation. Furthering the damage done to the citizens of Skyrim and that of the Empire.

    You state that the next Great War is sooner then I expect, but even if this belief is held and can keep us on our toes and ready for the Aldmeri Dominion invasion. The Aldmeri no longer have the advantage of surprise, only when they did were they able to decimate the Legions and still, was not enough for a victory. How much more are they capable of when the element of surprise is no longer in the Aldmeri's favor? I do not believe the Aldmeri Dominion is ready for such an attack such on a large scale. When the next Great War takes place, I know that the Nords will not sit idly by, I know that the Sormcloak Regime would not sit and wait for there boarders to become the front lines. Even the Companions would join and every free blade would seek to join them just to relive Ysgramor's 500 which defeated the Snow Elves. It wouldn't just stop there, Skyrim's organizations would play important roles in her defense, such as the Thieve's Guild acting as spies, intelligence and counter intelligence. This battle will not only consist of Skyrim's Stormcloaks, or the Imperial Legions… this battle will surely engulf every nation and every organization. The Great War indeed, but there will be nothing great about it.

    There is much unrest within the held provinces of the Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell still fights the Aldmeri Dominion and Valenwood too and that is just to name two. But can the Aldmeri Dominion continue to face threats in more then one provence? Even the Bretons continue to hold there skirmishes against the Aldmeri. The Dominion is overwhelmed and will face a heafty resource need that I feel they will not be able to meet. They will loose much, and the Empire and the Stormcloaks wills rand as one, with hope, will also be reunited with Hammerfell for when the next Great War begins.
     
  7. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    And to say that Nords are not sensible, is a stereotype. Fact is, more are sensible then others. Balgruuf the Greater, Jarl Indgrod Ravencrone, Alvor the Blacksmith, Jarl Igmund of Markarth, … there are so many to prove that there are more sensible Nords then commoners would claim. Even the Thieves Guild's Brynjolf is counted among the sensible.
     
  8. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    With war just around the bend, those Justiciars will be the first to die. The Civil War seems to be the Thalmor's last gambit to try weaken the Empire. Hence why it was so important to them, to the fact they even Elenwen herself appeared in Helgen trying to find a way to save Ulfric Stormcloak from execution.

    Even when the element of surprise was gone, the Aldmeri still won battles. Three Legions were wiped out, and every other Legion was under half strength. Underestimating the Thalmor is the largest mistake there is. The Blades underestimated them and were destroyed, many Altmer underestimated them and were killed.

    The Companions no longer involve themselves in wars and politics. It isn't just about the Thalmor being ready, invading Elsweyr and Valenwood which were untouched in the Great War will be hard pressed at the most. You run the risk of triggering a Wild Hunt in Valenwood, and then every last soldier would be slaughtered by the Bosmer morphing into creatures of nightmare.

    Elsweyr's Khajiit have some of the finest warriors, that even the Legion has been said it could learn from them.

    Thieves Guilds have never done such a thing, and never will.

    Factions never get involved in wars, the next great war will be done with soldiers.

    There is no unrest in the Aldmeri Dominion. Hammerfell has it's own treaty with the Thalmor, they're at peace. Valenwood is the Aldmeri Dominion. The Aldmeri Dominion = Alinor, Valenwood and Elsweyr as client states.

    High Rock is part of the Empire, thus at peace with the Aldmeri Dominion under the White-Gold Concordat.

    Ulfric hates the Empire with a passion, it is unlikely he'd band with them. He seeks to lead Tamriel. So his help may come at a price. Ulfric cares for personal glory and songs. As Tullius says at Season Unending "You're willing to sacrifice thousands for your own selfish ambitions"
     
  9. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    "You've been here long enough to know that Nords aren't always sensible. We follow our hearts." - Rikke
     
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  10. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    Aren't ALWAYS, that is the key word. But that also applies to everyone else as well. No man nor mer are immune to such ignorance or arrogance.
     
  11. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    When it comes to to the Companions, defending there home land will not be a question of political views or beliefs, but survival. And to say that the Thieves Guild would rather sit and watch as all around them crumble, that if Maven's profits begin to burn due to war, do you believe she would not employ the Thieves Guild to sabotage the Aldmeri Dominion? Just look what she did to Sabjorn because he opened up his own meadry.

    If the Aldmeri Dominion do invade Skyrim, it wouldn't just be the soldiers dying, but the College of Winterhold would be made a target as well, do you think that thhe Mages would not defend themselves? Do you not think that the Arch-Mage or other Mages would not seek those in charge to aid in Skyrim's defense?

    In the book titled, The Great War, clearly states that the Great Houses of Hammerfell unite against the Aldmeri Dominion. So how are they at peace?

    Seriously, if this war is going to be as big as it has been stated, do you not believe that others would join to rid the world of the Aldmeri Dominion?
     
  12. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    Even with Ulfric hating the Empire to such a degree, he knows the real threat is the Aldmeri Dominion, and as much as I dislike the guy. You surely cannot argue that Ulfric or the Stormcloak Regime would deny themselves such glory of a grand scale battle?
     
  13. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    The only reason why the Companions have engaged in either side is for one simple reason and that was best stated by Vilkas, "There are always good reason to fight. I just wish this war had them. Who cares who worships what dead god? Give me something to draw my sword"

    If the Aldmeri Dominion were to invade Skyrim, this would be the reason that brings the Companions into the Great War.

    Just because the game has never involved the side quest (Mages Guild or the College of Winterhold, The Thieves Guild, or even the Dark Brotherhood) does not mean that they should be discounted from world shaping events.
     
  14. Jeremius

    Jeremius Guest

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    That is Why I said Humble Pie for everyone. :D
     
  15. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    The Companions are only a few, sure they're gifted warriors. But, no match against an army of Aldmeri. This isn't Ysgramor's 500 who had the best enchantments of the era. Also their war with the Snow Elves lasted for generations, wasn't until the '13th in the line of Ysgramor' they beat the Falmer.

    If the Aldmeri Dominion invaded Skyrim, it would mean the Empire was destroyed. The Legions wiped out and now the ability to unmake the world would be at their fingertips.

    Lore doesn't involve them either, they don't take part. Thieves are Thieves, they aren't this honorable group willing to do their part. They're part of shaping events in lore, but never mentioned in battles/wars.
     
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  16. NENALATA

    NENALATA Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED

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    I must respectively disagree. Granted while there are differences between the Thieves Guild back in the days of Oblivion and the current edition in Skyrim, anyone whose 'worked' for they or even the Dark Brotherhood perhaps, will inevitably participate in world changing events, such as the assassination of Titus Mede II. Moreover, the Thieves Guild are not simply 'Thieves'. They are the army of Nocturnal who is all about altering world events.
     
  17. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    I never said they don't take part in world changing events, since generally faction quest lines are all canon. But they have never taken part in wars, never being mentioned. It can hardly be applied as a reason why the Stormcloaks can defend Skyrim with the help of the Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood and College of Winterhold.

    The Thieves work for self interests, they don't risk their lives for a noble cause. The Dark Brotherhood has no loyalty and can be hired by anyone, assuming they complete the ritual. The Thieves Guild in Skyrim aren't an army for Nocturnal, only the Nightingale Trinity serve Nocturnal as protectors of the Twilight Sepulcher. But there is no formal association between the Thieves Guild and Nocturnal's Trinity, as majority of the thieves are unaware and most assumed it was just a myth. The group in Skyrim was selected from the Guilds higher ranking members, but three people are hardly an army. It's a business arrangement, whom Nocturnal grants them powers to use as they see fit and they serve her in life and death.
     
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  18. Caideus

    Caideus Member

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    Yes, the Companions are few in count, but should they enter war, you know that there numbers would swell. For who could resist the call of Glory? No Nord would dare to pass this.

    Should Maven Balck-Briar begin to lose coin due to the Thalmor Justiciars operation, and should they not play nice with her. You know she would employ the Thieves Guild and The Dark Brotherhood for vengeance. For what thief would turn down coin or reject Maven's request?

    Should the Mages of Winterhold find Thalmor operations conspiring against them, do think the Mages would continue to loath with inaction?

    Point is, realistically these groups or factions would not idly sit to allow there way of life or those around them to suffer. They would protect that which they value most. Wether it be coin or other wise.

    There has only ever been one single reason why these factions have never been involved with the main story, and that is because they wanted to provide the player with the alternatives to play without engaging in the main quest lines. But because of this, you would suggest that none of these factions would dare enter war or operate along the side lines.

    If the next great war is as massive as you have made it to be, then I cannot believe that some of these factions would turn face to world changing events. Wether the player sided with the Empire or the Stormcloak regime.
     
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  19. NENALATA

    NENALATA Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED

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    It also should not be overlooked that both DB & TG have fallen on Hard Times. They used to "service" all of Tamriel, much the same as East Empire Co. I can also see both playing a part in the next war.

    Not to mention how anyone that's played the Thieves Guild Questline knows that the TG is more like a Mercenary Group due to desperate times. Yes you can use stealth however sometimes you just have to go all Commando on folks.
     
  20. DrunkenMage

    DrunkenMage Intoxicated Arch-Mage

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    The Companions don't get involved in wars. Haven't since the First Era, they avoid politics.

    If the Thalmor destroyed the Blades, what hope does a bunch of untrained thieves stand? Not to mention these thieves don't risk their lives to get tortured, and executed.

    The Dark Brotherhood has lost all influence and presence across Tamriel, the Black Hand is gone and they only have a small number in Skyrim. Also the Dark Brotherhood can be destroyed in Skyrim.

    Mages are famous for inaction, preferring self interests and study.

    Realistically, has any of these groups ever once taken part in the wars? Throughout TES lore, not once has any of these factions fought in war, used as agents for the greater good.

    Factions have never been involved in any main story. They never get involved, not once.

    If they've never taken part in all the wars known in TES. Why would they do so now?

    To say they would now, is stretching it.
     
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