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Discussion in 'General Skyrim Discussion' started by EvilCrazyCows, Feb 6, 2012.
That is what I want to know. We have already exhausted all the issues in the thread by the 5 or so page.
No, you see it evolve. Starts out not knowing much, then lore and more lore and then deeper lore. Until you end up like me, who entered this and the old other thread knowing nothing about TES lore. Learned all I know, from being in these debates.
IF you were answering me, the thread has become a rehash of the same stuff from early on, just with new people, not new/more/deeper lore.
IF not, please feel free to ignore.
The thread evolved. Early on you had misinformation, mistakes. In the thread these times, it's more lore intense at times.
New people come and they post, so things do get recycled. It's to be expected because no one wants to read the entire thing to check what arguments are mentioned, what has been said and answered, just to please you.
Same information, just new perspective. I was here when this Thread had people like Dagmar, who used the lore, just like you. It is not anything new or deeper, just a different "voice" saying things in a different tone.
I was here with Dagmar too. There are many things being discussed that Dagmar never spoke of, majority of her posts were correcting others on both sides. Not in the sense of bringing in new information.
There is plenty of information that hasn't been discussed. Or wasn't given much attention at first. Like Pale Pass being closed, cutting off Imperial reinforcements.
Even if you don't see any differences, things will always get repeated. New people come and they post, it's like that with many threads. People join the forums, they make a thread that's already been done several times. Yet they're new and didn't bother going through pages of pages to make sure they don't repeat someone.
No point in bringing up the inevitable.
Things like the Pale pass do not get brought up often. Nor do things like Non-Nord caravans and travelers in Eastmarch getting attcked and ignored. Neither do the Dunmer/Argonian situation get any real attention. Know why? Because those things are not that important to the topic for many people, including myself.
If you think about the Pale Pass thing, it means nothing, as it makes more sense in the Civil War to recruit locally as the peasants of Skyrim are going to feel the effects, not the legion.
Dialogue is counted as lore. So people who pay attention to things like dialogue, actually gain a better understanding of the TES universe. You learn so much lore through dialogue.
Such as dialogue in Morrowind, which revealed the Oblivion Crisis coming and the Dragon line ending. In Oblivion, dialogue also revealed the Nords were invading Solstheim which explains how they gave the island to the Dunmer.
But you'd never pick things up like that, because you don't pay attention. People who like the games, who want to learn more. They listen to dialogue.
Who's time? Yours? No one is forcing you to reply here, or making you respond every time a new face shows up. Others like replying here, and making arguments/counter arguments. Everyone else is happy posting here, they take breaks every now and then. But, no one is getting a headache over it.
And that affects the Civil War how? Knowing the little details does not equal a better understanding. It equals a knowledge of things that might not mean anything at the time. The dialogue in Morrowind probably had no real meaning until Oblivion, and knowing that meant you just had way too much time on your hands.
Do I really need to know how Ulfric is treating the Dunmer to knwo that Ulfric is a problem that needs to be gotten rid of? no, I do not. Nor do I need to know what Brunwulf says about the caravan thing, because it is not pertinent to the topic of the thread.
Knowing details gives greater knowledge. Gives you an understanding of what is happening. If you believe dialogue details doesn't affect the Civil War, then you have a very simple way of looking at things. Dialogue extremely affects the Civil war, how else would you know about each side, without dialogue?
Knowing that, just meant I've read the easter eggs page of Morrowind on UESP.
Without knowing anything, how would you know if something is a problem. You have a strange way of looking at things, dialogue is not lore. Details are meaningless and what not.
It is very pertinent to the topic of the thread. It speaks about both sides, dialogue is one of the main sources of lore throughout TES. But most times you're going on about "Lore is meaningless", which is rather amusing since it now seems you don't even understand the concept of what lore actually is in TES.
On Ulfric: He killed Torygg, becoming one of two candidates for the position of High King, AND starting the Civil War on the level it is today. That is enough for me to know that he needs to go.
And if the dunmer situation is so pertinent, why don't more people talk about it? because it is not that pertinent to the actual situation.
I understand what lore is, I just fail to see how important the small detail pieces are to the main topic, which I already know the main extent of what happened to get Skyrim into war with itself.
You said dialogue isn't lore so and no one pays attention to it.
How do you know Ulfric killed Torygg, it's only mentioned in dialogue?
People do talk about the Dunmer situation, but you just don't listen. The Jarls from the Holds talk about it during Diplomatic Immunity. The carriage driver for Windhelm talks about it. All the Dunmer talk about it too.
So your reasoning on why Ulfric needs to go, is because he started a war for the throne? Trying to get it through conquest?
Tiber Septim became Emperor through warfare, Titus Mede too. Olaf One-Eye became High King after winning Skyrim's first Civil War.
Ulfric needs to go because he killed Torygg? He actually challenged Torygg which Torygg didn't have to accept. Torygg knew he would die, he also knew the Legion would step in because of it most likely. Ulfric didn't simply kill Torygg, they dueled in the Palace's Courtyard. So it wasn't surprise attack, but they went outside and dueled. Ulfric shouted Torygg to the ground and pieced his heart with his sword.
I can see the dunmer situation in the game, and I hate That they got the short end of the stick. I do not need to hear them complain because I can see they got crappy homes and that the Jarl/Steward is not doing anything about it.
Do I need to know that the Pale Pass is closed so the Legion is to recruit locally knowing that the people are going to be the ones most effected by the war? not really. Do I need to hear about the Dunmer situation when I can see it for myself? not really.
All of Windhelm looks crappy, so how would you know without dialogue? What do you suggest Ulfric does about it? He doesn't have the resources to spare fixing up the Gray Quarter.
The Steward does bring the unrest to the attention of Ulfric, which he does say he currently has larger concerns.
All knowledge paints the whole picture, especially tiny details. It all adds up and you have a bigger view of it.
If you don't hear about the Dunmer situation, how would you know? Their homes are generally in the same state as the rest of Windhelm. The city was built in the Merethic Era, it's going to look a tad worn.
The place looks worn, but only the Grey Quarter looks like garbage. The rest of the city looks at least halfway decent/presentable.
And again, small details are small for a reason. They are not needed for the most part in order to understand the main issue at hand.
The Empire mentions it can't repair the Gray Quarter with all of Skyrim/Two other provinces. How is Ulfric supposed to with the poorest half of Skyrim?
Sometimes the smallest detail, can often be the largest. Kind of the small print of a contract.
Have you been to the Gray Quarter? The place is little more than an alleyway in-game. The place is the worst part of the city to live without dialogue to tell me about it. understand?
Halfway decent? The city is in disrepair all over the place.
"Imperials hate Dark Elves; Dark Elves hate Imperials." - Mach-Na
You see the Empire as the good guys, so you looked at it very two dimensional. The fact there are details, shows how things really are. It is easy to say, the Empire is the good. They bring law and order, peace and prosperity. Equality and respect everyone.
That isn't true at all, in fact the Empire shown in Morrowind, Oblivion Skyrim & The Novels is that it isn't all grand.
You say Stormcloaks are bad because they're racist. Play Oblivion, racism is rampant in that game. Even in Bruma a Nord Captain has to make sure the Imperials respect the Nords.
Empire benefits all, no it most certainly doesn't. It meddles and corrupts to suit Cyrodiil, look at what happened to Morrowind. The Empire went there, to exploit the natural resources.
Ulfric's reasons on why he thinks he should be High King are the exact same as the Empire's.
Ulfric after Stormcloak victory, controls the Military and Political power. Yet that makes him power hungry. How do you think the Empire believes it's right to rule? Through Military and Political power.
Ulfric is bad cause he killed the High King. Yet when the Elder Council have Titus Mede II assassinated? You don't see the contradiction of saying Ulfric is bad, when those who rule the Empire are guilty of the same?
Even so, it is no longer the Spetim Dynasty regardless of it's past. The fact that also remains is that for a combine (give or take) 100 hundred years, Uriell Septim VII's rule was remembered as a prosperous time of peace, and then for Martin's sacrifice to save Tameriil from Mehrunes Dagon cult, the Mythic Dawn, led by a High Elf, Mankar Camron. Only furthers the fact that with the last two Septim's in memory, are what filled the Imperial allegiances with pride for the Septim Dynasty.
They are of the same faction regardless, and cannot be allowed to continue to hunt down Skyrim's citizens. It also cannot be denied that the Thalmor in Skyrim are also taking resources, of materiel or magical being. That there continued presence is hurting not only Skyrim, but also the Empire and only by breaking free from Imperial rule can Skyrim better aid the Empire in long run.
If you choose to support the Empire in the civil war, you are dooming Skyrim citizens to a life of fear and for some, death. For you would allow the continued presence and operation of the Thalmor Justicars within Skyrim, and this does not offer any foreseen advantages for the Empire.