Fallout Debate NCR vs Legion
- Thread starter DrunkenMage
- Start date
Seanu Reaves
The Shogun of Gaming
Asides from super sledges it seems I am right.
The Legion appears to use radios as shown atCottonwood Cove HQ but overall opts for devices that use no power. The Legion does not need or truly desire power sources like the NCR, but at no point oppose its usage as they do with chems, alcohol and combat robots.
A bit of not out right rejecting. But use is fairly few and far between.
The interesting thing about the Legion is what you can find "On paper" and read about. Compared to what you actually experience in the games. This isn't an Imperials vs Stormcloaks things where the lore and information is important.
If being under Legion rule is so great... Why are people not jumping at the chance to join them? Simply put the reality of the Legion is quite brutal.
The Opening Cinematic
which I love I think gives the only unbiased information you really seem to get from the game itself. And happily covers both the NCR and Legion.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They were also interested in energy weapons. The thing is, that is just the Legion. The Military, who don't rely on technology.
People aren't jumping at the chance to join NCR either, I didn't say Legion rule is so great and perfect. But there is more to the Legion than meets the eye, Caesar himself is quite something. They seek to make New Vegas their Rome, and forge an Empire. Legion also occupies Helios, which is a power plant.
Information is always important. The opening cinematic, gives the most basic idea of what is happening. NCR are good "on paper" but the reality is not as cut and dry.
That is why you talk to people, talk to factions. Sure the Legion is brutal, but so too can the NCR be. The NCR's Military doesn't like being in the role of peacekeeper, so majority of crimes are punishable by death.
Seanu Reaves
The Shogun of Gaming
That is why you talk to people, talk to factions. Sure the Legion is brutal, but so too can the NCR be. The NCR's Military doesn't like being in the role of peacekeeper, so majority of crimes are punishable by death.
Aye That is why I am going to do a second playthrough. maybe get all the DLC and such. Really try to experience the world for once. Depending on your character (Which I think it interesting how I can RP play Fallout easier than TES while actually playing) the better option can actually change drastically based off traits.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Legion is interesting. A lot of things for them was cut to finish the game, but you have to also remember. You're seeing the Legion on the front lines in a war zone.
When you visit Nipton, sure it's easy to say "These people are so bad and evil" but Nipton stood for everything the Legion was against. The Legion was also invited, because the towns mayor wanted to sell Powder Gangers and NCR over to the Legion for caps. If you speak to Vulpes Inculta at Nipton and ask what he did, it's interesting. Of course it is cruel and harsh, but I believe (Not certain) he mentions people were also betraying each other, even not caring when loved ones were dragged away by the Legion's lottery.
CapObvious
A Rotten Scroungeral
I have to admit, when I saw the title of the thread, I was skeptical that anyone could make a case for joining the legion, which I keep branding as the "bad guy" in New Vegas.
However, I had forgotten a lot of the points that Drunken Mage just reminded me of. So when you put those facts down on paper like that, the Legion isn't as "black and white" as I made myself believe.
Now, I feel like the whole game is sort of like the "Pitt" DLC from Fallout 3. Every side is colored with so much gray you can't tell which way is up, and when you choose a side and leave, you still feel like you made the wrong choice. Remembering just because the NCR is fashioned like the old American Government doesn't make them the good side, and that brutality doesn't make the legion bad, makes the choice a lot more difficult to make. At least for me.
This thread definitely makes me rethink the Legion's stance in my mind. It's definitely influenced my vote too. I would love to see some examples of day to day behind Legion lines from Bethesda. I'm curious to see just how safe the Legion has made it.
However, I had forgotten a lot of the points that Drunken Mage just reminded me of. So when you put those facts down on paper like that, the Legion isn't as "black and white" as I made myself believe.
Now, I feel like the whole game is sort of like the "Pitt" DLC from Fallout 3. Every side is colored with so much gray you can't tell which way is up, and when you choose a side and leave, you still feel like you made the wrong choice. Remembering just because the NCR is fashioned like the old American Government doesn't make them the good side, and that brutality doesn't make the legion bad, makes the choice a lot more difficult to make. At least for me.
This thread definitely makes me rethink the Legion's stance in my mind. It's definitely influenced my vote too. I would love to see some examples of day to day behind Legion lines from Bethesda. I'm curious to see just how safe the Legion has made it.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Dialogue given by a Trader at the 'Fort', seems to suggest he can walk freely through Legion lands without worrying of being raided. As all the raiders and bandits have been driven off by the Legion.
He also mentions as long as you don't try to sell them chems or alcohol they treat you fairly. If you get the NCR to protect Primm, after Legion victory they take over the town and it is left alone, and prosperous. Just under their watchful eye. They leave you alone if you're civilized. Unless you're an enemy in the war zone.
What makes the Legion interesting is a dialogue given by Caesar when he knows his Legion is on the brink of change, this faction is only a few decades old. The NCR is over a hundred, coming up to two hundred years old.
"It's Hegelian Dialectics, not personal animosity. How do I put this basically enough? It's a philosophical theory, the kind you might encounter if you took time to read some books. The fundamental premise is to envision history as a sequence of "dialectical" conflicts. Each dialectic begins with a proposition, a thesis... which inherently contains, or creates, its opposite - an antithesis. Thesis and antithesis. The conflict is inevitable. But the resolution of the conflict yields something new - a synthesis - eliminating the flaws in each, leaving behind common elements and ideas."
"The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero. The NCR has all of the problems of the ancient Roman Republic - extreme bureaucracy, corruption, extensive senatorial infighting. Just as with the ancient Republic, it is natural that a military force should conquer and transform the NCR into a military dictatorship. Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, and the power of its dictator."
Caesar is an interesting fellow to speak with.
He also mentions as long as you don't try to sell them chems or alcohol they treat you fairly. If you get the NCR to protect Primm, after Legion victory they take over the town and it is left alone, and prosperous. Just under their watchful eye. They leave you alone if you're civilized. Unless you're an enemy in the war zone.
What makes the Legion interesting is a dialogue given by Caesar when he knows his Legion is on the brink of change, this faction is only a few decades old. The NCR is over a hundred, coming up to two hundred years old.
"It's Hegelian Dialectics, not personal animosity. How do I put this basically enough? It's a philosophical theory, the kind you might encounter if you took time to read some books. The fundamental premise is to envision history as a sequence of "dialectical" conflicts. Each dialectic begins with a proposition, a thesis... which inherently contains, or creates, its opposite - an antithesis. Thesis and antithesis. The conflict is inevitable. But the resolution of the conflict yields something new - a synthesis - eliminating the flaws in each, leaving behind common elements and ideas."
"The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero. The NCR has all of the problems of the ancient Roman Republic - extreme bureaucracy, corruption, extensive senatorial infighting. Just as with the ancient Republic, it is natural that a military force should conquer and transform the NCR into a military dictatorship. Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, and the power of its dictator."
Caesar is an interesting fellow to speak with.
What happens to the Legion when Caesar dies? He will eventually.
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Well... to be honest I've always seen it this way:
Empire of Tamriel == NCR
Stormcloaks == Powder Gangers + Khans
Thalmor == Caesar's Legion
In my eyes Caesar's Legion is more like the Thalmor. Notice the way Vulpes Inculta speaks to you at Nipton, calling out everyone's sins and everything. They're all very condescending and smug like the Thalmor, not to mention well dressed in good armor.
The NCR's values are the rule of law and have a society similar to a Republic/Democracy. The Powder Gangers are proof that NCR punishment is not always instant death. They had to earn their freedom by giving back to society.
The NCR has had a few bad run ins with it's neighbors, however it ain't all bad by any means. NCR and Brotherhood used to work together and will again if you choose that path. When the NCR assimilates a town, everyone might not want them there however it does not include 'nailing women and children to wooden crosses' to destroy the identity of the tribe.
Continuing from how the NCR deals with independents, like the situation in Primm, the NCR gave the town a choice as to whether they absorb into NCR jurisdiction, or let the town choose to go with their own civilian jurisdiction. Primm is in NCR territory, however the citizens have the license to run their own town without being lorded over by the NCR. Although that is an option too.
The Thalmor execute people for believing in Talos, among other things. Caesar's Legion executes anyone who doesn't agree with Caesar. There is no live and let live with them, just like the Thalmor. The NCR, like the Empire of Tamriel, is just trying to survive. They don't want to crush everyone under their thumb over *ONE MAN's* ideology. Who is Caesar that he should go around raping every tribe? And before anyone says anything about the NCR vs Khans... know this... there is an option where you can get the NCR and Khans to work together.
Seeing a pattern here... NCR will save everyone they can... Brotherhood of Steel... Khans... Enclave... Boomers... NCR accepts you for who you are, even if its begrudgingly... just like the Empire of Tamriel in Skyrim.
I look at it this way... if you don't want Thalmor carting off your loved ones... why in the hell would you want someone else nailing them on a cross, bleeding, coughing, crying for all to see in order to destroy your families identity for 'his' gain? Or better yet... YOU would have the honor of nailing them to that cross. If you are fine with nailing your friends/family to a tree, *for Caesar*, then Caesar's Legion is where you belong. If you have compassion for people... even for those who don't agree with your ideology... and believe in respecting each others' differences, then helping the NCR get back on it's feet to help everyone else is the thing to do.
And I can't think of anyone more deserving of a second chance than the NCR and BoS. Anyone who wants to wipe out the Brotherhood is up to no good. Having the BoS & NCR working together under one roof is the absolute best outcome/ending possible in that story. an NCR/BoS Victory assures Technology is preserved and properly administered to the masses, Democratic Process, Free Society, Medicine, Rule of Law, Science, ***Women's Rights, are all rescued from *ONE MAN's* insane vision which is NOT even based on Rome proper. Caesar lives in fear every day, hiding from himself... 'worried' about what they'll do to him if he's been found out a fraud. Of course, Caesar has also set it up so that no one can read and technology is shunned... just like the Catholic Church did during the Dark Ages.
*** = (to be treated/respected like people instead of being hoared out by forced to marry/reproduce between different men)
Empire of Tamriel == NCR
Stormcloaks == Powder Gangers + Khans
Thalmor == Caesar's Legion
In my eyes Caesar's Legion is more like the Thalmor. Notice the way Vulpes Inculta speaks to you at Nipton, calling out everyone's sins and everything. They're all very condescending and smug like the Thalmor, not to mention well dressed in good armor.
The NCR's values are the rule of law and have a society similar to a Republic/Democracy. The Powder Gangers are proof that NCR punishment is not always instant death. They had to earn their freedom by giving back to society.
The NCR has had a few bad run ins with it's neighbors, however it ain't all bad by any means. NCR and Brotherhood used to work together and will again if you choose that path. When the NCR assimilates a town, everyone might not want them there however it does not include 'nailing women and children to wooden crosses' to destroy the identity of the tribe.
Continuing from how the NCR deals with independents, like the situation in Primm, the NCR gave the town a choice as to whether they absorb into NCR jurisdiction, or let the town choose to go with their own civilian jurisdiction. Primm is in NCR territory, however the citizens have the license to run their own town without being lorded over by the NCR. Although that is an option too.
The Thalmor execute people for believing in Talos, among other things. Caesar's Legion executes anyone who doesn't agree with Caesar. There is no live and let live with them, just like the Thalmor. The NCR, like the Empire of Tamriel, is just trying to survive. They don't want to crush everyone under their thumb over *ONE MAN's* ideology. Who is Caesar that he should go around raping every tribe? And before anyone says anything about the NCR vs Khans... know this... there is an option where you can get the NCR and Khans to work together.
Seeing a pattern here... NCR will save everyone they can... Brotherhood of Steel... Khans... Enclave... Boomers... NCR accepts you for who you are, even if its begrudgingly... just like the Empire of Tamriel in Skyrim.
I look at it this way... if you don't want Thalmor carting off your loved ones... why in the hell would you want someone else nailing them on a cross, bleeding, coughing, crying for all to see in order to destroy your families identity for 'his' gain? Or better yet... YOU would have the honor of nailing them to that cross. If you are fine with nailing your friends/family to a tree, *for Caesar*, then Caesar's Legion is where you belong. If you have compassion for people... even for those who don't agree with your ideology... and believe in respecting each others' differences, then helping the NCR get back on it's feet to help everyone else is the thing to do.
And I can't think of anyone more deserving of a second chance than the NCR and BoS. Anyone who wants to wipe out the Brotherhood is up to no good. Having the BoS & NCR working together under one roof is the absolute best outcome/ending possible in that story. an NCR/BoS Victory assures Technology is preserved and properly administered to the masses, Democratic Process, Free Society, Medicine, Rule of Law, Science, ***Women's Rights, are all rescued from *ONE MAN's* insane vision which is NOT even based on Rome proper. Caesar lives in fear every day, hiding from himself... 'worried' about what they'll do to him if he's been found out a fraud. Of course, Caesar has also set it up so that no one can read and technology is shunned... just like the Catholic Church did during the Dark Ages.
*** = (to be treated/respected like people instead of being hoared out by forced to marry/reproduce between different men)
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Helping them get back on it's feet?
The NCR isn't weak, they're powerful. The problems they're having is because all the best soldiers are back west protecting two headed cows.
They can barely protect citizens. But if you have land, they'll try take it. Even if they can't protect it, or even use it. That is greed.
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
NENALATA said: ↑
then helping the NCR get back on it's feet to help everyone else is the thing to do.Helping them get back on it's feet?
The NCR isn't weak, they're powerful. The problems they're having is because all the best soldiers are back west protecting two headed cows.
They can barely protect citizens. But if you have land, they'll try take it. Even if they can't protect it, or even use it. That is greed.
No more greedy than surrounding a tribe that has done them no harm... and raping it to the bone. Nailing anyone 'not of use' to wooden crosses and enslaving the men and child-bearing capable women.
At least with the NCR I might can clear things up with a simple phone call to the bank.
Also, if you look at a map, if NCR loses Nevada, she'll be split in half by the Legion. Able to raid North and South Cali. NCR will collapse within a few years - if that - after losing Nevada. Like the Empire in Tamriel, just in a different way however very much in the same manner.
Besides, the NCR need not fall at all. Caesar already has 3 or 4 states. Let them do what they will and leave Cali and Nevada alone. The Legate goes home, Courier goes home, everyone just goes home and drinks it off. Otherwise, continuous conflict + over-expansion + death of Caesar will end Caesar's Legion.
Nenalata Speech Check 100 = Passed.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yeah, they conquer tribes. It's harsh, but it was needed to gather more soldiers in preparing to take the Mojave.
They don't nail you to crosses. They tie you to it.
At least with the NCR I might can clear things up with a simple phone call to the bank.
Legion is on the brink of change, they seek to make New Vegas their Rome. Forge an Empire.
The problems with NCR, is that their politics are owned by Brahmin Barons. They're corrupt, even the Head of the Rangers is falsifying Intelligence reports and deliberately miscommunicating information sent in from various NCR outposts .
If he's caught out, he commits suicide. The NCR stretched themselves too far, and spread too thin. Even if they win the Mojave they can't protect it.
The Legion however, they do protect subjects. There is zero corruption, and all subjects enjoy a stable consistent supply of electricity, food and water. They also enjoy safety, since raiders are more scared of the Legion and flee to lands further away.
NCR has to patrol their lands, and traders have to move with armed mercenaries. You can walk alone across Legion lands, and not have trouble.
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
NENALATA said: ↑
No more greedy than surrounding a tribe that has done no harm to you... and raping it to the bone. Nailing anyone 'not of use' to wooden crosses and enslaving the men and child-bearing capable women.Yeah, they conquer tribes. It's harsh, but it was needed to gather more soldiers in preparing to take the Mojave.
They don't nail you to crosses. They tie you to it.
It's unnecessary. Caesar just made a name for himself on the blood and ashes of his victims. Hardly a noble deed in any respect. Furthermore, there is no need for him to conquer the Mojave. Forget about the NCR for a sec, Mr House and his New Vegas are the pinnacle of Civilization in the Mojave and New Vegas belongs to them. MR House has protected New Vegas ever since the bombs fell and New Vegas will continue to prosper without the Legion's chains.
NENALATA said: ↑
At least with the NCR I might can clear things up with a simple phone call to the bank.Legion is on the brink of change, they seek to make New Vegas their Rome. Forge an Empire.
Ahhh smell that ambition. I love the smell of napalm at... 1,2,3, 11pm at night.
The Legion does need change. And when the Courier sends the Legate back home to fix all the problems the Legion currently has, things will change. Even The Legate himself admits the Legion is over stretched and their expansions Westward were too costly. The Courier does him a favor by being the voice of reason.
NENALATA said: ↑
Also, if you look at a map, if NCR loses Nevada, she'll be split in half by the Legion. Able to raid North and South Cali. NCR will collapse within a few years - if that - after losing Nevada. Like the Empire in Tamriel, just in a different way however very much in the same manner.The problems with NCR, is that their politics are owned by Brahmin Barons. They're corrupt, even the Head of the Rangers is falsifying Intelligence reports and deliberately miscommunicating information sent in from various NCR outposts .
Politics suck everywhere you go. The Brahmin Barons play an important part in the NCR's economy, which is doing good in California and everywhere else except for the Mojave. But the Mojave is contested, it's like a demilitarized zone, so you can't judge the NCR solely on how things are going in the Mojave. Several NPCs confirm that back in Cali, things are doing very well. Raiders are all but extinct, everyone has a good quality of life.
And so... the Legion had a bad Legate once upon a time who got most of Caesar's Legion annihilated by the NCR. With the NCR, there's a chain of command for dealing with these types of things. There was another high ranking Centurion who didn't commit suicide and allowed himself to be captured and interrogated. Same difference.
Just because you have someone abusing their authority, doesn't make the organization not worth saving. People make mistakes. The Powder Gangers are testament to that. And yet, the NCR deals with it in a just, civilized manner and goes on.
This is irrelevant because once the NCR takes back Hoover Damm, there is an option to have the Brotherhood of Steel restore the old Alliance with the NCR. Once this is done, the BoS joins NCR and patrols the Mojave. Escorts will always be required, however, Caesar's Legion goes into full retreat once the NCR wins the Damm. However, while the Mojave is being contested, being essentially a war zone, yes sir, I would expect heavy escorts traveling with any trading outfit.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Caesar seeks New Vegas as his Rome. The same could be said about the NCR, they have no need being there. They just wanted more things.
Of course the expansion Westward was costly, after you just cut through half their forces. The Legion is newly formed, only decades old. The NCR hasn't or doesn't want to change.
You can judge the NCR solely on the Mojave. Their best soldiers are protecting two headed cows back west. The only reason they had problems is because they couldn't annex Vegas. So they were stuck holding their position.
They try to emulate Pre-War America, but aren't in a Pre-War world to make it work. They've just become corrupt, and unable to function properly. Merely wanting more and more. Spreading further, pushing people out of their homes.
Can't even bother properly equipping or training majority of the soldiers on the front lines. They're either not caring, or the best at pleading poverty.
That isn't the same. That Legate was actually good, just he was defeated by better tactics and planning. The Legion had never faced a more tougher opponent than the NCR.
When the organization is as corrupt and greedy as they are, what is there to save? Going back to taking more lands without purpose? Just because they're greedy. Be controlled by Brahmin Barons, which don't simply play an important part in politics, they own the politics.
The idea of the NCR is great, sounds good. In practice not so much.
You ever notice that you gain NCR infamy for forming that alliance? NCR superiors don't like it. Also they don't restore the old alliance, since they're still fighting back west. It's a temporary solution. One that the NCR will break overtime when they want heavy troopers in salvaged power armor again.
Traders require escorts through NCR lands, even back west apparently. They should focus on their own issues, before constantly spreading themselves further and further. Only because their eyes are bigger than what they can eat.
The NCR has declined, into nothing more than a child who wants more toys for the sake of having more toys.
The Legion has purpose, direction. Caesar understands them well.
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
NENALATA said: ↑
It's unnecessary. Caesar just made a name for himself on the blood and ashes of his victims. Hardly a noble deed in any respect. Furthermore, there is no need for him to conquer the Mojave. Forget about the NCR for a sec, Mr House and his New Vegas are the pinnacle of Civilization in the Mojave and New Vegas belongs to them. MR House has protected New Vegas ever since the bombs fell and New Vegas will continue to prosper without the Legion's chains.Caesar seeks New Vegas as his Rome. The same could be said about the NCR, they have no need being there. They just wanted more things.
NCR wants New Vegas but they're not fanatical about it. I want a million dollars but I'm not going to go stick people on crosses for disagreeing with my means of getting it. Caesar doesn't need New Vegas. NCR doesn't really need it either. New Vegas really belongs to the 'natives', Mr House and the people who've lived there for generations. NCR got involved because the Mojave Rangers needed protection from Caesar's Legion. The NCR is there because Caesar is there. It's like Indians losing their land all over again and the NCR has agreed to protect them in exchange for some benefits. I would agree with you that if Caesar left the NCR would have no reason for being there. Of course, then again, by saving New Vegas from Caesar, the NCR has earned the right to be there.
NENALATA said: ↑
Ahhh smell that ambition. I love the smell of napalm at... 1,2,3, 11pm at night.The Legion does need change. And when the Courier sends the Legate back home to fix all the problems the Legion currently has, things will change. Even The Legate himself admits the Legion is over stretched and their expansions Westward were too costly. The Courier does him a favor by being the voice of reason.Of course the expansion Westward was costly, after you just cut through half their forces. The Legion is newly formed, only decades old. The NCR hasn't or doesn't want to change.
Okay. Then it does no good to have the whole world and lose what you started with. Because that's what would happen. The Legion is good at winning battles but not wars. The Legion needs to slow down and fix it's own problems.
NENALATA said: ↑
Politics suck everywhere you go. The Brahmin Barons play an important part in the NCR's economy, which is doing good in California and everywhere else except for the Mojave. But the Mojave is contested, it's like a demilitarized zone, so you can't judge the NCR solely on how things are going in the Mojave. Several NPCs confirm that back in Cali, things are doing very well. Raiders are all but extinct, everyone has a good quality of life.You can judge the NCR solely on the Mojave. Their best soldiers are protecting two headed cows back west. The only reason they had problems is because they couldn't annex Vegas. So they were stuck holding their position.
They try to emulate Pre-War America, but aren't in a Pre-War world to make it work. They've just become corrupt, and unable to function properly. Merely wanting more and more. Spreading further, pushing people out of their homes.
Can't even bother properly equipping or training majority of the soldiers on the front lines. They're either not caring, or the best at pleading poverty.
You can't judge NCR based solely on how things are going in the middle of a contested, demilitarized zone. You need to at least consider how Cali and other areas are doing as well.
Furthermore, it sounds like in that second paragraph you're describing Caesar's Legion perfectly. About wanting more and more, becoming corrupt, unable to function properly. Ever pressing West but leaving itself behind back East. Because Caesar will not live much longer and the more wars the Legion fights, the faster it will disintegrate. There's a reason why the Legate left, even he somewhere on the inside has a fundamental disagreement with Caesar's policies.
As for the NCR military, compared to Caesar's Legion, they're very well equipped depending on their rank and purpose. The NCR even has actual Power Armor Units. Where the NCR supply lines are stretched thin, yes the Military bases will do without. But that's not everywhere and is expected in a war. Caesar's supply lines may be in better shape however his soldiers are equipped with even less than the NCR.
NCR troopers are givin training in marksmanship and basically urban warfare. They can use Guns, Explosives and Melee Weapons effectively. They also have Rangers, Power Armor Units, Vertibirds, MPs and Shock Troopers with 'gutted' Power Armor.
The Legion has a different style military, with the top people being sufficiently equipped and sending out most of the soldiers as cannon fodder, leaving them to defend themselves with the equivalent of 'wooden spoons'. You can talk all day about how good a Machete is on this and that but when you have a NCR Trooper with a Service Rifle and Combat Knife, there's no contest.
NCR Service Rifle is extremely reliable and .556 ammo is common and cheap. Anyone in the army knows to take care of the equipment like themselves, however, if the Rifle jams they still have training in Explosives and Melee weaponry.
NCR Trooper is a very well-rounded soldier as opposed to most of Caesar's Army, whose purpose is for the most part to run and die out fear of punishment with poor training and almost no equipment to speak of.
NENALATA said: ↑
And so... the Legion had a bad Legate once upon a time who got most of Caesar's Legion annihilated by the NCR. With the NCR, there's a chain of command for dealing with these types of things. There was another high ranking Centurion who didn't commit suicide and allowed himself to be captured and interrogated. Same difference.That isn't the same. That Legate was actually good, just he was defeated by better tactics and planning. The Legion had never faced a more tougher opponent than the NCR.
Ahh but it *is all the same* in Caesar's eyes.
NENALATA said: ↑
Just because you have someone abusing their authority, doesn't make the organization not worth saving. People make mistakes. The Powder Gangers are testament to that. And yet, the NCR deals with it in a just, civilized manner and goes on.When the organization is as corrupt and greedy as they are, what is there to save? Going back to taking more lands without purpose? Just because they're greedy. Be controlled by Brahmin Barons, which don't simply play an important part in politics, they own the politics.
The idea of the NCR is great, sounds good. In practice not so much.
You said yourself the NCR is old and has been around for a while. They have 'skin in the game' as well as years of experience. You're blaming the entire organization for being corrupt and greedy and this and that...
The NCR is finding new ways to produce wealth where by creating JOBS where there wouldn't be any by printing money. This makes sense because CAPS are very valuable, almost like say... Silver Coins, Silver Eagles. But that's the thing... by manipulating the currency a little, it adds more value to CAPS and provides a secondary currency that's worth half the value in CAPS. Which is not being greedy, it buys jobs.
It's like this. Alright, Mage, let's say you wanted to work for me and the only form of currency is for me to pay you in Silver Dollars. But the thing is, I'm over-paying you. When I can pay you in Dollars which is paying you what you actually earned. So, me paying you Silver Dollars is going to drive me out of business, when paying less is more. People whom before couldn't have jobs, will now be able to make a decent living off paper money instead of CAPS.
You're not going to like this and most people wouldn't. However, this encourages small business and other avenues of economic growth because I, as a business man or entrepreneur or investor, can pay less for a product or service. Which helps everyone, even the consumer.
Let's say, ahh... Mage you're at the Gun Runners and you want to buy an Anti-Matter Rifle for hunting Stormcloaks. You can pay me 10,000 in CAPS or you pay me 6,000 in NCR money. Of course, they have to accept the NCR bucks. But that's the principle behind this. Which is an excellent idea I think.
NENALATA said: ↑
This is irrelevant because once the NCR takes back Hoover Damm, there is an option to have the Brotherhood of Steel restore the old Alliance with the NCR. Once this is done, the BoS joins NCR and patrols the Mojave. Escorts will always be required, however, Caesar's Legion goes into full retreat once the NCR wins the Damm. However, while the Mojave is being contested, being essentially a war zone, yes sir, I would expect heavy escorts traveling with any trading outfit.You ever notice that you gain NCR infamy for forming that alliance? NCR superiors don't like it. Also they don't restore the old alliance, since they're still fighting back west. It's a temporary solution. One that the NCR will break overtime when they want heavy troopers in salvaged power armor again.
Traders require escorts through NCR lands, even back west apparently. They should focus on their own issues, before constantly spreading themselves further and further. Only because their eyes are bigger than what they can eat.
The NCR has declined, into nothing more than a child who wants more toys for the sake of having more toys.
The Legion has purpose, direction. Caesar understands them well.
The General is all for it. He's almost ecstatic about that, "I've put in a few calls and our allies are on their way."
The NCR has so far shown *good faith* in majority of their dealings with other factions. Mistakes have been made, but those weren't intentional.
Furthermore, for the NCR to be the ONLY faction to allow an Alliance at all with the Brotherhood is very compelling. Not to mention how the NCR ALSO makes Alliances with every. other. major. faction. The options are there. Everyone may not be happy with it, but that again, is irrelevant. I'm not happy with my roommate every day but just like the NCR, I deal with it.
If the NCR had any real malicious intent, they wouldn't bother with making so many Alliances. The NCR just wants to survive and in doing so, the Mojave will become unified and protected. Mending old wounds hurts at first but in time those 'feelings' will go away.
Again, the NCR is making Alliance with everyone regardless of 'who they are' or what happened back when. NCR is not better than everyone else. The NCR does NOT seek to change everyone or force themselves into people's lives like the Legion does.
The NCR as you said, is old and has been around for a while. Everything the NCR has it's earned. NCR *defeated the Enclave*. They're not children and the fact the NCR *puts aside* it's differences with the Boomers, BoS, Enclave, Khans, proves they're not childish by any means. The NCR has earned the right to live by proving their worth to mankind. Obviously the NCR hasn't declined that much because they put up one hell of a fight at Hoover Damm and defeat the Legion in every advance, if the Courier chooses to help them. Like the Empire in Tamriel, sometimes you just have to ignore the haters and believe in them.
Forcing EVERYONE to think and live their lives YOUR WAY is very selfish and that is the definition of childish, which describes Caesar perfectly.
NENALATA
Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
DrunkenMage,
You're attacking the NCR's humanity. The fact that the NCR has some issues just means they're human, with strengths and weaknesses. I'm more concerned about the "In-Human" aspects of the Legion. Not feeling any remorse or compassion. Never thinking of the suffering they carry out on others who just want to live their lives and be good people. Being Tribal does NOT give you the right to rape/subjugate and murder them.
You're attacking the NCR's humanity. The fact that the NCR has some issues just means they're human, with strengths and weaknesses. I'm more concerned about the "In-Human" aspects of the Legion. Not feeling any remorse or compassion. Never thinking of the suffering they carry out on others who just want to live their lives and be good people. Being Tribal does NOT give you the right to rape/subjugate and murder them.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The NCR is in the Mojave for one thing, the Dam. They wanted the rest, but signed a treaty. Which they regret, everyday. The NCR got involved not due to Desert Rangers, but for more power.
The Legion is after New Vegas to establish themselves. They're a nomadic army, and Caesar knows they will change from their war with the NCR.
Removing the flaws from both the Legion and NCR, and the best of both join. That is what Caesar is after.
Not all of the Mojave is 'contested' they've been there for years. I base the NCR off of what they're doing, off what people are saying.
As one puts about the NCR's actions "That's how revolutions are started"
Except there is no Legion corruption. Caesar is pressing west to change the very nature of his Legion. He's not doing it because he hates the NCR, or anything like that. The man was an NCR citizen and follower of the apocalypse.
The Legion's equipment isn't less, in fact their equipment is suited for their needs. They don't have factories or lines of production like the NCR.
The NCR has been around for hundreds of years. The Legion only decades. Though as for power armor, Legion Centurions have parts of power armor on them. Taken from Brotherhood of Steel Paladin's they've killed back East.
The NCR soldiers sent to fight in the Mojave are noted to not having much training, and given substandard equipment. Many of them not even body armor.
Yet with all this, they're barely holding out against the Legion.
Actually there is a contest, hence why the NCR rightly fear the Legion. How the Legion are able to overcome many encampments, raid camps and even wipe out Ranger Outposts.
Legionnaires aren't primitive. They do use weapons other than knives. They also are skilled in explosives, setting traps. Booby-trapping the dead.
They are greedy. It's stated by many people. If you can't see their corruption and greed, then you're not looking.
Actually it makes their workers have a large disadvantage due to the exchange rates. Which is why many of them have issues.
Except people who get paid in NCR paper money, actually complain and find it worse. Due to exchange rates, they're barely scrapping by.
Actually siding with the Legion, you can convince the Brotherhood to attack the NCR while you attack them dam. The Legion sides with several people, Khan's, Boomers, can also side with Enclave.
Actually you make the alliances. The NCR is just taking whatever they can get, same as the Legion.
There would be many, many who disagree with that.
About the Khan's, they actually end up going against them. Due to them wanting more land, than sticking to their agreements.
The NCR is getting their ass kicked, until the Courier helps them. Legion are infiltrating them, putting the fear of god into them. They're also capturing them.
One Centurion with only 16 Legionaries mentions he's already captured and killed four times as many.
NCR isn't the Empire of Tamriel.
The Legion is the Military. Not the civilization they seek to create. Comparing them would be like saying the USMC represents life in America. A lot of tribals turn to raiding. Sure there are some that don't, but that is the Legion's way of maintaining numbers and keeping the wastes civilized. I'm not saying it's right, but that is now. The Legion is a nomadic army, that constantly moves. They need those slaves, and those males from the tribes. Caesar seeks Vegas to change the Legion, to turn them into a standing army that protects it's citizens. Legion leaves civilized towns alone.
The Legion is harsh, which is why they're suited for a harsh world.
Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production.
Lansworthy
Lacklusterous
Caesers Legion hands down.
The whole Roman thing just appeals to me.
The whole Roman thing just appeals to me.
J
Jeremius
Guest
I chose NCR simply because the legion's male-centricity is insulting to me, as a man.
The main reason I hate the legion is that you see no female in positions of power, and basically if you a female, you have the choice of Home-maker/baby factory, slave, or death.
The main reason I hate the legion is that you see no female in positions of power, and basically if you a female, you have the choice of Home-maker/baby factory, slave, or death.
Ivory
Let's Player
Caesar's legion is nothing more than organized bandits, rapists and the like. Edward himself was a rather intriguing man, but in the end a fool. You cannot change a person unless they want to, and his "army"? Well, I doubt they want to change from the ways he laid out for them. Once he dies and the Courier goes after the new leader, you can convince him and open his eyes to what Edward knew would happen upon his death. The entire legion will fall apart into chaos. NCR may be greedy with land, and hell, they may have caused the destruction of the Divide (wasn't entirely sure if that was true or not but damn did i love that DLC) but I'd rather side with the NCR than slavers who rape, pillage lands and torture people. Guilty or innocent, it doesn't matter. Kill the enemy. but to torture for a pointless reason like "showing power"? That shows no power and is cowardly.They spit on the very notion of protection and freedom by being tyrants. Edward turned against the Followers of Apocalypse for what, a corrupted version of the groups own ideals that has done more harm than good.
And yes I'm calling Caesar by his true name. Ever since I played Honest Hearts, I grew to hate the man further.
And yes I'm calling Caesar by his true name. Ever since I played Honest Hearts, I grew to hate the man further.
