Connecticut Shooting

[Omega Dragon]

It's true, and as such I will be direct. Gun control is by far, itself, the very method by which the chef is cooking up frog soup. As we all know, unless you slowly turn up the heat, cold-blooded animals like frogs will remain in the pot until it's too late. It happened in Austria, as I described earlier. Truth is, it did happen in Germany as well. Not that it necessarily started around guns, either.

"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for the crooks and gangster. I want you to have nothing. If I'm the bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins." - Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, Mafia Hitman & Informant

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of its arms as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

"A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

"Every good Communist should know that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun, and that gun must remain firmly in the hands of the state." - Mao Tse Tung

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." - Heinrich Himmler

"Governments need armies to protect them against their enslaved and opposed subjects." - Leo Tolstoy

"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We wouldn't let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Josef Stalin

"I cannot go to work. But I have a film to finish. Our editor has been unable to make it in from New Jersey, but he is there now waiting for some word on what to do. I can't even think about this movie. I don't WANT to think about it because if I think about it I will have to face an ugly truth that has been gnawing through my head....This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! — I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" - Michael Moore, Gun Control Advocate

"Because less than twenty years ago I was the target of a terrorist group. It was the New World Liberation Front. They blew up power stations and put a bomb at my home when my husband was dying of cancer. And the bomb didn't detonate....I was very lucky. But, I thought of what might have happened. Later the same group shot out all the windows of my home....And, I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did. I was trained in firearms. I'd walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." - Diane Feinstein

"Civilized people are taught by logic, barbarians, by necessity, communities by tradition; and the lesson inculcated even in wild beasts by nature itself. They learn that they have to defend their own bodies and persons lives from violence of any and every kind by all means within their power." - Cicero

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of carrying arms....To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms." - Richard Henry Lee

"Gun control, the theory that 110-pound women should have to fistfight with 210-pound rapists." - Chris Morton

"I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officials." - George Mason

As I will continue to put forward though, there is no reason why any group of humans (but especially the "law-abiding" kind) should legally have less access to their own defense than any other group of humans, even more so when the latter includes a force capable of destroying the world. I'm trained to kill. I'm trained to shoot. I'm trained to wound. I'm even trained to survive. Yet someone finds that I somehow shouldn't be able to use something just because I don't have a non-civilian job. Yeah... I don't think so, especially when this other group is significantly more dangerous than any armed civilian ever could possibly be.

 

[Brizzle Kicks]

I just read this how brave was that women I take my hat off to her.

Principal died lunging at US gunman – Officials | Inquirer News

 

[Soloquendi]

Gun control does not equal gun banning. Lay off the over the top hyperbole and take this seriously. Handguns for home/self defense and rifles/shotguns for hunting should remain legal, with proper background checks. Assault rifles and military style ammunition should be banned.

This is just one part of the solution. Better access to mental healthcare and counseling for young people is another. We may not be able to stop this from happening again, but we can reduce the number and severity of these events.

 

[Medea]

Gun control does not equal gun banning. Lay off the over the top hyperbole and take this seriously. Handguns for home/self defense and rifles/shotguns for hunting should remain legal, with proper background checks. Assault rifles and military style ammunition should be banned.

This is just one part of the solution. Better access to mental healthcare and counseling for young people is another. We may not be able to stop this from happening again, but we can reduce the number and severity of these events.

But what happens if we do take away assault rifles and some nut goes and kills 20 people with a hunting rifle? Do we take those away too? The Connecticut shooter had a bushmaster assault rifle, but that weapon was not used in the shooting. He only used the pistols with extended clips. I hate to use the "slippery slope" argument, because it's used so much, but I think it really is a valid argument.

btw, I'm all for getting rid of extended clips and drum magazines, but can we really allow ourselves to be punished for what some nut did? Why is it okay for the government and police to arm themselves with assault rifles and not civilians? The Right took away our 4th amendment rights with the Patriot Act, and now the Left wants to limit our 2nd amendment rights. It IS a slippery slope, and I don't want to end up at the bottom of the slide when the government or corporations finally make the official decision that they don't want a democracy anymore.

 

[Omega Dragon]

Gun control does not equal gun banning. Lay off the over the top hyperbole and take this seriously. Handguns for home/self defense and rifles/shotguns for hunting should remain legal, with proper background checks. Assault rifles and military style ammunition should be banned.

This is just one part of the solution. Better access to mental healthcare and counseling for young people is another. We may not be able to stop this from happening again, but we can reduce the number and severity of these events.

Right, because no one should ever have to resist Big Brother.

Again, there is no reason whatsoever why any particular entity of humans should have a legal edge over another. If civilians cannot have access to something, neither should any other group.

 

[Lady Imp]

I've done a lot of thinking over the past several days, looked at the posts, and flipped through my sociology textbook that I spent waaaaay more money on than I should have had to and I'm still trying to figure out how a book can be copyrighted a year into the future. Anyhoo, here's my conclusion:

Society is screwed up. This right here? Something needs to be done about this:

I am Adam Lanza's Mother

Mass shooters are gonna get guns. Thank the internet. Gun control isn't what needs to change. We need to:
a) Stop glorifying gun culture
b) Fix our access to mental health care
c) Remove the negative stigma associated with mental issues

Sadly, this is all easier said than done. Societal changes are like pulling an elephant across a swamp - especially when you're talking about a society containing 300 million+ people.

I really hope that some good comes out of the tragedy. That's really the best way we can honor the fallen - fix the broken system that caused this in the first place.

*steps off soapbox* OK I'm done. I'm gonna go destroy a Kit Kat.

 

[Soloquendi]

I don't think you understood my post. Let me restate.

We are not going to stop all such incidences, but we can take steps to reduce the number and severity.

To say that we shouldn't try because it's too difficult is a cop out. That's like quitting before you start and I hate quitters.

If anyone thinks that they're going to take on the military with assault rifles, you're deluding yourselves. The take over of our government is already underway and it wasn't done by force, but by money. Money buys TV and radio stations which brainwash the populace into blaming the other side. All the while, the corporate aristocracy is rewriting the law of the land. Not a shot fired.

We need to address this issue from EVERY angle. Gun control, mental health, media influence, etc.

The 2nd amendment is important, but in this modern age it's not the tool that it was. A more powerful tool is information, and a free press, that's why it was the FIRST amendment. In this modern age, an internet connection is of more use against tyranny than all the guns in the world.

 

[Medea]

If anyone thinks that they're going to take on the military with assault rifles, you're deluding yourselves.

I agree with everything you said in your post, except this. ^

I don't think it's the military we have to worry about. I don't think our soldiers would be willing to turn their guns on U.S. civilians or family members. The ones we have to worry about, eventually, are the corporate, private strike forces and mercenaries. Will we be able to fight them? Maybe. If enough of us are together in defending our freedom we might. Islamic terrorists sure are giving them hell, aren't they? And they have nothing but assault rifles and improvised explosives.

I hate to sound like some paranoid conspiracy theorist, or neo-anarchist, but just imagine if they really do pass stricter gun control laws, then one of the Koch brothers (or someone like them), gets elected president. That seals the deal for me.

 

[Omega Dragon]

I don't think you understood my post. Let me restate.

We are not going to stop all such incidences, but we can take steps to reduce the number and severity.

To say that we shouldn't try because it's too difficult is a cop out. That's like quitting before you start and I hate quitters.

If anyone thinks that they're going to take on the military with assault rifles, you're deluding yourselves. The take over of our government is already underway and it wasn't done by force, but by money. Money buys TV and radio stations which brainwash the populace into blaming the other side. All the while, the corporate aristocracy is rewriting the law of the land. Not a shot fired.

We need to address this issue from EVERY angle. Gun control, mental health, media influence, etc.

The 2nd amendment is important, but in this modern age it's not the tool that it was. A more powerful tool is information, and a free press, that's why it was the FIRST amendment. In this modern age, an internet connection is of more use against tyranny than all the guns in the world.

Of course not just with assault rifles, but no one sure is going to be holding government accountable with a pea shooter or by Twitter.

I'm not worried about the constitution. But at the end of the day, to restrict either a man's right to defense of himself whether from government or a criminal (which gun control is) or his ability to hold opinion is nothing more than a move of graduation to tyranny. You can say "gun control" isn't "banning guns", but the end is still the same - one body of humans telling another what they legally or legally cannot do.

 

[Cylos]

I'm not going focus on your constitutional rights and opinions as to whether or not you should have the capacity to defend yourself. I'm not having a go at America itself, I'm merely putting forward my opinion as a a British citizen.
However over here in good 'ol Blighty, we have a very tight restriction over all firearms and this law is publicly backed. We have one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world.
I'm not implying that America should have highly restrictive legislation over firearms, we live in democratic countries and therefore legislation should serve the people and their rational opinions. I believe that America doesn't need excessive gun control, I'll leave the specifics to yourselves since American citizens on the forums will have a greater knowledge of what should be done, I personally believe that the American culture and glorification of firearms is one of the most likely causes of these situations.

 

[Soloquendi]

There it is again. Fear. Fear of the Government, fear of the other, fear, fear, fear.

There is way too much emphasis in this culture on apocalypse scenarios. Fueled in a large part by the Christian doomsday cult that controls our society.

I appreciate everyone's opinions on this matter, and I know it's not an easy thing to work out, but I feel it needs to be done. So as of now, I'm done talking about it. I'm going to start doing something. Money to fight against the gun lobby is the best way to do that now. I'll be diverting some of my normal charity donations to this effort from now on.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Medea]

I'm not going focus on your constitutional rights and opinions as to whether or not you should have the capacity to defend yourself. I'm not having a go at America itself, I'm merely putting forward my opinion as a a British citizen.
However over here in good 'ol Blighty, we have a very tight restriction over all firearms and this law is publicly backed. We have one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world.
I'm not implying that America should have highly restrictive legislation over firearms, we live in democratic countries and therefore legislation should serve the people and their rational opinions. I believe that America doesn't need excessive gun control, I'll leave the specifics to yourselves since American citizens on the forums will have a greater knowledge of what should be done, I personally believe that the American culture and glorification of firearms is one of the most likely causes of these situations.

I might sound like a typical, arrogant American here, but as gun crime rates in Great Britain went down, incidents of stabbings went up.

Also, one of the first things that happened when they took your gun rights away in 1997, is the cameras started to go up everywhere. Big Brother in the U.K. is inevitably wresting control from it's people. That's the way many see it, anyway.

I completely agree with your assessment of American glorification of violence. That's the main reason, imo, why we have so many shootings. Put that into the mix of a country famous for gang culture, racism, endless war, fear mongering, doomsday prophets, religious nutters, the political divide, hypocrisy, and paranoia; and a few unstable people are just going to go off their rocker now and again.

 

[Omega Dragon]

There it is again. Fear. Fear of the Government, fear of the other, fear, fear, fear.

There is way too much emphasis in this culture on apocalypse scenarios. Fueled in a large part by the Christian doomsday cult that controls our society.

Fear? Yeah, so we should just accept everything government says like a good little citizen? Thanks for your input, but I'd rather be labeled a domestic terrorist than a good little citizen.

There's far more to it than fear.

I might sound like a typical, arrogant American here, but as gun crime rates in Great Britain went down, incidents of stabbings went up.

Also, one of the first things that happened when they took your gun rights away in 1997, is the cameras started to go up everywhere. Big Brother in the U.K. is inevitably wresting control from it's people. That's the way many see it, anyway.

I completely agree with your assessment of American glorification of violence. That's the main reason, imo, why we have so many shootings. Put that into the mix of a country famous for gang culture, racism, endless war, fear mongering, doomsday prophets, religious nutters, the political divide, hypocrisy, and paranoia; and a few unstable people are just going to go off their rocker now and again.

There's more to it than the glorification of any particular culture. It's like conservatives implying video games are the problem. The real problem is the household itself. Kids believe they can kill without repercussion because they see it in a video game or because there's a cultural assimilation to it do so because they're not taught that there's a difference between reality and fantasy.

Which again, as I've argued: the Wild West wasn't quite so wild, certainly not prior to the involvement of the federal government. Kids were trained from an early age how to handle guns, yet only one Billy the Kid. Just like how kids brought up in Martial Arts don't get all that violent.

 

[Soloquendi]

I'm not a good little citizen. I grew up on a reservation in Northern Idaho. We kill Feds when they get in our face.

I don't completely trust the government. It's just that I trust the average citizen with a gun even less. Like the guy last week, who killed his 7 year old kid while climbing into his pickup, because he forgot there was still a round in the chamber.

I'm going to take a break from forums until after Christmas, so I can spend time with my grand nieces. They're 7 and 8.

Have a great holiday and stay safe.

 

[Chowder138]

I'm not a good little citizen. I grew up on a reservation in Northern Idaho. We kill Feds when they get in our face.

I don't completely trust the government. It's just that I trust the average citizen with a gun even less. Like the guy last week, who killed his 7 year old kid while climbing into his pickup, because he forgot there was still a round in the chamber.

I'm going to take a break from forums until after Christmas, so I can spend time with my grand nieces. They're 7 and 8.

Have a great holiday and stay safe.

Nice to know a little more about your history.

And that story about the guy that killed his kid, that's terrible. My friend's mom, who lives on 21 acres and keeps a gun in the console of her car, once told me "always treat a gun like it's loaded." I now know what that means.

 

[Omega Dragon]

Nice to know a little more about your history.

And that story about the guy that killed his kid, that's terrible. My friend's mom, who lives on 21 acres and keeps a gun in the console of her car, once told me "always treat a gun like it's loaded." I now know what that means.

I knew what a gun was by the time I was like 5~6 years old. I knew not to mess with them, but by the time I was 9 I knew how to use 'em. Funny thing is, I still do not own one (due to other reasons... primarily for living with people that don't like them).

I have almost no sympathy for kids messing with guns, even less for adults. The victims, maybe, but that itself depends (if you're the parent and didn't bother teaching the kid, I don't wanna hear it - you're part of the problem).

 

[Medea]

I knew what a gun was by the time I was like 5~6 years old. I knew not to mess with them, but by the time I was 9 I knew how to use 'em. Funny thing is, I still do not own one (due to other reasons... primarily for living with people that don't like them).

I have almost no sympathy for kids messing with guns, even less for adults. The victims, maybe, but that itself depends (if you're the parent and didn't bother teaching the kid, I don't wanna hear it - you're part of the problem).

Well, you can't necessarily blame the kids here, Omega. Kids are ignorant and do stupid things. I've heard of children drinking radiator fluid and putting their hands on heated stove elements too. Ignorance really is an excuse, but kids always do stupid things that cause them to be hurt. Guns are just one of those things that ignorant people have no business messing with.

 

[Chowder138]

Spawn of Satan - The Meta Picture

I find this to be somewhat relevant.

 

[Omega Dragon]

Well, you can't necessarily blame the kids here, Omega. Kids are ignorant and do stupid things. I've heard of children drinking radiator fluid and putting their hands on heated stove elements too. Ignorance really is an excuse, but kids always do stupid things that cause them to be hurt. Guns are just one of those things that ignorant people have no business messing with.

Yeah, I know not to blame the kids. I just don't feel much sympathy for them, at least once they get into their teen years. It seems like some sort of brain switch should start kicking in by then.

Spawn of Satan - The Meta Picture

I find this to be somewhat relevant.

Wow.

I'd have probably been arrested for kidnapping thereafter if they said that plops to me. Want me to parent your child? Fine, I'll just take 'em right off your hands.

 

[Chowder138]

Yeah, I know not to blame the kids. I just don't feel much sympathy for them, at least once they get into their teen years. It seems like some sort of brain switch should start kicking in by then.



Wow.

I'd have probably been arrested for kidnapping thereafter if they said that pl*** to me. Want me to parent your child? Fine, I'll just take 'em right off your hands.

"We don't decide what our child does."

I want to kill those parents.