Borderlands 2, and why it's a terrible game

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PoisonPen

Member
So I acquired Borderlands 2 and all the DLCs recently, and sat down to play it. I played the original Borderlands several times through and rather enjoyed it. It wasn't a perfect game by any means, had plenty of frustration, and felt annoyingly grindy, but the quirky characterizations and the feeling of gradually growing power was a good way to pass the time between Fallout 3 and waiting for Skyrim. I'd rate Borderlands a C+, so I figured Borderlands 2 would be assured of at least a passing grade. Boy was I wrong.

It's like Gearbox set out to recreate Borderlands, but to remove all the fun parts while increasing all the worst elements. In the original Borderlands, things respawned so quickly that you'd often have to kill the same generic spawn three or four times during the process of completing another generic Fedex delivery quest. In Borderlands 2, not only didn't they fix this, they amazingly decided to make it worse. Deliberately. In a deliberate design decision I can only guess must have been made while high on meth, they not only force you to endure repeated spawns of the same generic opponents, but make the opponents so hard that there is a significant chance of death every single time you fight them, resulting in another trip through that exact same generic spawn.

Which brings us to the second inexplicably terrible design decision. This game is Nintendo hard -- and not in a good way. I like a challenge as much as anyone else. I've been gaming on computers for 35 years (my first console was a Telstar Pong) so I'm not exactly a novice, and if I have to sink a little time into a learning curve, well, that's part of the fun. But when enemies can consistently absorb three or four critical headshots from your best sniper rifle, appear in swarms, and can instakill you with two shots no matter how strong your shields or how high your health, that screams "fake difficulty." In order to make Borderlands 2 tougher than Borderlands, all they did was turn every enemy into a bullet sponge while making them hit like a runaway cement truck. That is the hallmark of poor game design, and the strongest signal that Gearbox is creatively bankrupt.

Oh, there are ways to get around the endless swarms of bullet sponges; deploy your turret and hide behind cover until everything is dead, or phaselock everything in sight, or fling a constant barrage of singularity grenades at every pack of opponents. Unfortunately, nearly all of these strategies involve finding ways of not actually being involved in the game. If the only way to avoid constant game death is to stare at a low-poly brown rock while your turret does amazing things somewhere offscreen, what's the point in even playing?

Meanwhile, at the same time they turned every enemy into an unstoppable tank, they removed ammo regeneration entirely. To make it even more irritating, they tied storage and ammo capacity into a randomly-placed unobtainium coin system, meaning that you're always so low on ammunition that the only way to avoid running out is to carry one of every single weapon type, making specialization impossible. It creates a generic, dull, uninspiring, one-size-fits-all playstyle which makes the class you choose largely irrelevent.

I spent some time on Google reading other people's opinions of Borderlands 2, and people seem to be divided into two very different camps. One camp consists of sneering 14 year old Call of Duty semi-literates whose response to complaints like mine consist of "lrn2game loosr"; the other camp consists of people with a boiling point IQ. I can only guess that Gearbox made a conscious decision that stupid, callow teenyboppers are their target market, and that creativity is too much work for too little profit. Which is a shame, because Borderlands showed rare aptitude at satisfying multiple markets by encouraging a variety of play-styles ranging from beer-and-pretzels casual gaming to fast-twitch Korean-level twinking.

All in all, I am forced to give Borderlands 2 a failing F grade. A great disappointment. It will be uninstalled from my system uncompleted and unlamented.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
You must be playing a different version of Borderlands 2 than me. Enemies don't seem to respawn that quickly for me. When I die and respawn at the last Hyperion save point the one's I killed in the area that follows haven't respawned.

I don't find the game particularly hard either for an FPS nor did I have to engage in the kind of tactics you're describing. Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode isn't hard so much as it's tedious and you don't have to play in that mode. I don't have a lot of Legendary or Pearlescent items either. My favorite gear comes from the unique blues that are mission rewards. The Moxxi weapons are great since they health leech and always come with elemental damage, and since the weapons are mission rewards you don't even have to farm for them.

You can find unhelpful people on any forum but I've found that there are people on the Gearbox forum that are willing to help a player out with gear, builds and even coop play to observe the player and provide pointers when players complain in posts about the difficulty of the game.

If you come with that tremendous chip on your shoulder and snide attitude that anyone who enjoys the game or has a different opinion about the game than you is somehow defective I wouldn't be surprised if no one was interested in helping you out though.
 

Crooksin

Glue Sniffer
Agree with the original Borderlands, although I would probably go ahead and give it a B+, rather.

Never once had that respawning problem, in fact I had the opposite. Sometimes things wouldn't respawn causing me to wait around and go do something else for a while to go back to it or just continue on my day in an empty wasteland. As for the death portion, haven't died that much either. I like things of difficulty though.​
See the thing is, I see your complaints about the difficulty bewildering. Either you actually are not good at FPS's in general, or maybe you're not investing your perks correctly, I don't know. I have never experienced nor seen anyone experience such trouble with the difficulty of the game. I wouldn't exactly say I've steamrolled through the game but I do enjoy where it is, the AI can still give me a beating. I play with other people everytime I play which causes the difficulty to go even greater because more bonuses are applied to monsters so this really doesn't make much sense. In any case, the autosave feature which allows you to respawn literally 2 seconds away and not long after your fatal battle more than makes up for it, you don't actually have to make up a lot of time, ever.​
I definitely wouldn't say they are creatively bankrupt though, the world and characters they created as well as the visual aspect is of quite the contrary and is quite vivid.​
The only thing I can tell you if you find that you have to constantly avoid deploying your turret for survival is switch characters (even though I think that's pretty obvious). This is right in line with the original Borderlands and if you find it surprising than clearly you never played much of that game, either. That's just the type of game it is really, shoot-em-up bang, bang. I always forget about the special abilities (turrent, etc) and end up only using them half the time when I realize I can, not once did I have to sit there and just hide and deploy. I had the most troubles with the bosses, but that's exactly how it should be.​
Never had a problem with enemies, I mean sometimes I had to go through an area a couple times but its all about strategy. As much as you may think it wouldn't be, I can assure you if you plan your targets first you may come out on top. I think there is only a handful of times where I can recall actually running out of ammo for a weapon (this is especially something because I used a rifle that took up multiple bullets for one shot). Ammo is abundant and so are the guns.​
I completely disagree with your judgement of the classes, however. Each character plays vastly differently and you should be favoring a certain type of gun if you have put perks into it, but that is all common sense. This could be the reason why you have so much trouble with the difficulty. It would be fun if every class could be just as good with every weapon but oh wait.... that would make them irrelevant.​
Every game's community sucks and that is something I have just accepted. Borderlands definitely opens up to a lot of markets and pleases people all over. They showed just as much creativity as the first one and I didn't get the "stupid, callow teenyboppers" vibe one time playing the game, lol. Then again, anything with swearing, guns and blood could be targeted for "stupid, callow teenyboppers", because they eat that plops up. Nah, that's just a ridiculous assessment.​
Honestly, I think you were playing a different game. I'd give it a B, only because I'd say it was too much like the first one or maybe just not as fun the second time around. I think its retarded you'd give it a failing grade, its part of the handful of games that actually show promise lately. Loved the action, the jokes, the characters, the world and especially the visuals. I have especially loved the co-op aspect of the franchise and its what has always brought me back to it.​
 

Sean

lost somewhere
The game seemed rather easy to me, and the end boss (while cool) wasn't difficult either.

I would get launched every once in a while by its tail 50 feet into the air and land with only 5 of my 1600 shield depleted (was around level 30, first playthrough).

I have also been playing the game with another person, as Borderlands is the type of game where you need another person, not for difficulty, but to make the game more fun.

I see the game as a huge step up from the first game, and the only real problem is the driving which could be improved, but is alright.


Only difficulty I have found is from the couple of enemies that are MEANT to be extremely difficult.
 

PoisonPen

Member
Every single one of you who has replied here has said you're playing with at least one other person. I have been playing entirely alone, which has two effects: first, it means my loot is less rare, which means my guns are much less effective and my shields aren't as strong, and second, it means I am the single and only target for everything.

The game is not harder with more people, it's easier. Enemies scales linearly while player power increases geometrically with numbers. Most of the people I've seen who share my opinion that the game is too hard and requires a boring, ultra-conservative play style have also been trying to play solo. It's all well and fine to say that it's intended to be played with a group, but like Yahtzee I hate playing with a bunch of squealling, teabagging 12-year olds and their basement-dwelling aspie big brothers. If I had known they were just throwing in the solo game without any real thought, I wouldn't have bothered to acquire it.

Facing a huge swarm of enemies which require multiple headshots with a sniper rifle to kill, while they can kill you in two shots no matter how much shield you have, is simply not fair and smacks of fake difficulty.
 

Sean

lost somewhere
Every single one of you who has replied here has said you're playing with at least one other person. I have been playing entirely alone, which has two effects: first, it means my loot is less rare, which means my guns are much less effective and my shields aren't as strong, and second, it means I am the single and only target for everything.

The game is not harder with more people, it's easier. Enemies scales linearly while player power increases geometrically with numbers. Most of the people I've seen who share my opinion that the game is too hard and requires a boring, ultra-conservative play style have also been trying to play solo. It's all well and fine to say that it's intended to be played with a group, but like Yahtzee I hate playing with a bunch of squealling, teabagging 12-year olds and their basement-dwelling aspie big brothers. If I had known they were just throwing in the solo game without any real thought, I wouldn't have bothered to acquire it.

Facing a huge swarm of enemies which require multiple headshots with a sniper rifle to kill, while they can kill you in two shots no matter how much shield you have, is simply not fair and smacks of fake difficulty.

Considering that I have had to go through and kill everything on my own for a while because my friend wasn't there goes against that.
Still is easy.
 

Sean

lost somewhere
Considering that I have had to go through and kill everything on my own for a while because my friend wasn't there goes against that.
Still is easy.

Translation: lrn2play loosr!!11!1

lol, sorry if it came off that way.

Try leveling up your character in lower leveled areas, or try to get better weapons.

You can get gold keys from those codes that are out there, or you can mod your profile and give yourself as many as you want (and do more if you want to, but that breaks the game in my opinion).
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Every single one of you who has replied here has said you're playing with at least one other person.
Uh, I never said that. I said that there are players that will coop with you to help you out if you're having problems. I've soloed everything except the last DLC because I haven't had time to play it. I play coop for the fun of playing with people not because I need to.
I have been playing entirely alone, which has two effects: first, it means my loot is less rare, which means my guns are much less effective and my shields aren't as strong
That's really not a valid claim. Most of the unique blue items in Borderlands 2 are guaranteed as they're mission rewards. Deadly Bloom and Love Thumper are purples and Flame of the Firehawk is a Legendary. As I mentioned before Moxxi's items are guaranteed to have an elemental effect and they all health leech which means you heal as you do damage to targets. All of them (the Heartbreaker, Rubi, Creamer, Kiss of Death, Hail, Chère-amie, Slow Hand, and Kitten) except the Good Touch and Bad Touch are mission rewards (and those two are still easy to obtain). If you save the relevant side missions in your second playthrough until after you complete the main missions they automatically level up to 50 so you can have some really effective gear to farm and do the DLC campaigns. There are also several easy red chest areas to farm for items and the Geary - Lord of the Rings Easter Egg that drops 3 red chests per run. None of this is relative to coop play. Gearbox has also given away well over a hundred Golden Chest keys through Shift codes. I'm horrible about getting them because they expire and my lifestyle doesn't entertain constantly monitoring the Gearbox Borderlands 2 News forum but even I've managed to get a few dozen.
....the game is too hard and requires a boring, ultra-conservative play style have also been trying to play solo....
Playstyle varies with both character and build. There's nothing ultra-conservative about playing Gaige using an Anarchy and Discord loop build. The playstyle is insanely non-intuitive for an FPS and I found it hilarious and fun. In areas like Sawtooth Cauldron, Maya with a Reflective Reactive Cat build is an absolute terror with enemies killing each other with their own bullets and her shots ricocheting off multiple targets with massive damage bonuses. It relies on a strategy that's anything but conservative. Both builds put you in the thick of things. If you take a look at the forum sections for each character on the Gearbox forums you'll find a lot of builds that use different combat strategies and not all of them rely on having great gear.
 

utael

Member
I'm actually playing through right now and don't have that difficult of a time. It's a hell of a lot easier than bf3 or black ops 2 although I do find fallout to be more enjoyable. This is all on single player on ps3
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I'm actually playing through right now and don't have that difficult of a time. It's a hell of a lot easier than bf3 or black ops 2 although I do find fallout to be more enjoyable. This is all on single player on ps3
It's easy to outlevel content if you do all the side missions as you level so that alone makes it easier. Because most informed players hold off on a lot of side missions in the second playthrough (True Vault Hunter Mode) so they can get leveled up unique blues from the missions they stay more even in level even with the increased xp in TVHM. In TVHM the proportional health of enemies to your health goes up and they hit harder. More Badasses spawn and normal enemies get enhanced (e.g. armored or shielded or both when they weren't in your first playthrough). In the third playthrough (Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode) enemy health increase by another 4 times, hit even harder, and all of them regenerate health. They always level with you (irrelevant unless you have the Ultimate Vault Hunter Upgrade to increase the level cap). To compensate for this Slag increases your damage a lot more, lasts longer and also does damage itself.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
This thread has virtually the same complaints I've posted here... and virtually the same responses.
Not really. The OP doesn't complain about respawn rates. The OP doesn't complain about general mob difficulty. The complaint is limited to regular mobs and is more related to number rather than individual difficulty. If you read the follow up posts the OP says his Maya handles boss mobs relatively easily compared to how his Maya handles large groups of generic mobs. The OP doesn't claim that he or she doesn't feel involved in the game due to limited combat strategy nor does he or she claim that a lack of availability of better weapons contributed to his or her issues.

The OP doesn't share your assessment regarding the playability or enjoyability of the game either and states later that the game became rather easy when playing as the Gunzerker. The initial assessments of the game were largely uninformed as the OP hadn't even finished the first playthrough or played any other class than the Siren when the first post was made. The OP also had a poor Siren build for solo play. Investing heavily in the healing skills of the Harmony skill tree makes for a terrible build for solo play. He or she should have been investing primarily in the Cataclysm and Motion skill trees instead.
 

PoisonPen

Member
It never fails. No matter what the forum, no matter what the game, any time anyone finds problems with a game which make it hard or frustrating or both, there's always someone there to say the criticisms are wrong, the game is flawless, and easy, and anyone who doesn't have the same experience must be stupid, spastic, clueless, or lying.
 

Sean

lost somewhere
It's not that, it's just with so many other people not having an issue with that aspect of the game, then it only leaves the person who is having the issue as being the part that has the problem and not the game itself

If we were talking about a bug, then that would be drastically different, but as we are discussing difficulty there really isn't that much to do about it.

The game isn't difficult for the majority of the people, and even the ones who do solo, so if Gearbox did make the game easy to assist the people who are having problems then more people would complain, as the game would be way too easy much like the first game.

The mechromancer, soldier, and siren are all good characters to use that can make the game much easier if you are having problems though.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
It never fails. No matter what the forum, no matter what the game, any time anyone finds problems with a game which make it hard or frustrating or both, there's always someone there to say the criticisms are wrong, the game is flawless, and easy, and anyone who doesn't have the same experience must be stupid, spastic, clueless, or lying.

I've simply made observations of fact. If they contradict your subjective views that's your issue. It's pretty clear at this point that you don't want any constructive advice or information to help you enjoy the game and prefer to vent and rage and maintain a narrow minded approach to playing the game that gets you nowhere. That's your prerogative but others, including that OP, who are more sincere benefit from posts of people trying to help out. It will be readily apparent to any rational person reading this thread that your critique of the game is biased and uninformed.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
The game isn't difficult for the majority of the people, and even the ones who do solo, so if Gearbox did make the game easy to assist the people who are having problems then more people would complain, as the game would be way too easy much like the first game.
So let them complain. We really don't have any idea whether the majority of the people don't or didn't find the game difficult. That's especially true in light of the fact that we have no idea how many of them only were able to deal effectively with the game difficulty after getting advice and help from others via the internet. There are a considerable number of threads on the subject on the Gearbox forums that provide guidance to players having problems. For all the infantile and irrational whining by elitists on the forum about making the game too easy, as long as it's an option and not an imposition, implementing something like a difficulty slider won't deter them from purchasing and playing the game. It's nothing but selfish pettiness driven by banal narcissistic egomania on their part.
 

PoisonPen

Member
It will be readily apparent to any rational person reading this thread that your critique of the game is biased and uninformed.

This is why media critics don't take the gaming industry seriously. It's still regarded as the purview of sh!t-talking, antisocial basement dwellers. Believe it or not, it's possible for people to have an opinion different from yours, Dagmar, and not be de facto wrong. Google gives me 86,300 results for instances of "Borderlands 2" with "too hard" -- with the majority of the top 10 appearing on Gearbox's own website forum. Clearly I'm not the only person on Earth who regards Borderlands 2 as catering too much to the hardcore fast-twitch gaming crowd. I've been playing computer games since the late 1970s, so I'm not exactly inexperienced, and if I'm finding the solo game rough going, I can guarantee you that many more casual gamers are too.

Edit: As an interesting note, when I type "Borderlands 2" into Google, two of the five auto-completion suggestions which pop up are "too hard" and "way too hard".
 

PoisonPen

Member
Google suggestion is based on your own habbits BTW.

"As you type, autocomplete predicts and displays queries to choose from. The search queries that you see as part of autocomplete are a reflection of the search activity of all web users and the content of web pages indexed by Google."
 

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