Bethesda you make me weep!

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ColleenG

When in doubt, follow the fox.
Take the approach with Assassin's Creed Brotherhood combat system and integrate it, you will have some seriously impressive fighting scenarios in the Elder Scrolls from throwing/kicking dirt in people's faces, using spears and can sweep with them, more versatility with various weapons and a counter system which would work very well. Dragon, mammoth, and Giant fights would certainly be phenomenal had they taken more liberty and time with it. Sure it wouldn't have come out in 2011 but a year later and it would've controlled even better. Watching folks fight is boring because each swipe does damage to HP but that's about it, I want to see pain and response for getting hit with something.

The climbing in the game... there is no real climbing, hop around and if you can't clear your feet over it then you won't be getting over it which annoys me greatly that a simple TABLE or ledge can keep you from progressing and forcing you to go around. If they take the climbing from other franchises into consideration then using the hands as well would've made things a lot easier to maneuver.


Good point on climbing. I hate not being able to even jump over my damn dog. Who is always is the doorway.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Take the approach with Assassin's Creed Brotherhood combat system and integrate it, you will have some seriously impressive fighting scenarios in the Elder Scrolls from throwing/kicking dirt in people's faces, using spears and can sweep with them, more versatility with various weapons and a counter system which would work very well. Dragon, mammoth, and Giant fights would certainly be phenomenal had they taken more liberty and time with it. Sure it wouldn't have come out in 2011 but a year later and it would've controlled even better. Watching folks fight is boring because each swipe does damage to HP but that's about it, I want to see pain and response for getting hit with something.

The climbing in the game... there is no real climbing, hop around and if you can't clear your feet over it then you won't be getting over it which annoys me greatly that a simple TABLE or ledge can keep you from progressing and forcing you to go around. If they take the climbing from other franchises into consideration then using the hands as well would've made things a lot easier to maneuver.


See. Posts like this frustrate us who know animation. When you animate something, you give it life, you give it it's style, your style and you mark the point from which you can expect to see it.

You want an Elder Scrolls game with assassin's creed mechanics? That's the proper thing to ask. Not for the animation. You want the mechanics of the Assassin's Creed series in Elder Scrolls.

Then it stops being either of those. It's something of a copy, a hybrid with a confusing mess. Sometimes it's pulled off well.


However what's frustrating is when you follow a game series as a developer for years. Improving from the very first game into what it is today and you see how it's grown and then have people say "This should be more like this game!"

No. No it should not. Every game, good and bad has their identity. When you say "this should be this way, like this game is!" You get what has dimished and damaged the gaming community as a whole

The "Halofied/Call of Dutifed" games. The endless shooters with the exact same mechanics, prettier animations and graphics and none of the true part of the game that gives it it's identity. The mechanics. You want to change Elder scrolls into an anime, or assassin's creed clone? You take away the soul of what is the Elder scrolls game.


Can The Elder Scrolls mechanics be improved? Of course they can. Everything can be improved. But to change what makes a game successful stops it from being what, by it's very soul, it is.

The best and worst examples of this are Resident Evil. Resident Evil 4 was the best example of a change in mechanics unlike any other, yeah it can be great and work sometimes.


But now look at the horrible game that is RE6 and the mediocre RE5 that is almost the exact copy of RE4 (Quite literally. First village is an ambush, chainsaw villain and so on)

If you're against the repetitive first person shooters, never say things like "This game should be like this" because you'll end up being a hypocrite.

If you like the mind-numbingly endless release of repetitive shooters, more power to you, but let games that have a different path stay on their path. We don't need any more clones of the same repetitive games over and over and over, ruining the market with over-saturated gameplay.

Lastly, this isn't a personal attack on you by any means. I just feel this has to be said for all to read and understand that games need their identity and when you want them to copy each other, it diminishes the value of not only the original product, but the game you want them to copy.
 

Benthos

Proud Mer
See. Posts like this frustrate us who know animation. When you animate something, you give it life, you give it it's style, your style and you mark the point from which you can expect to see it.

You want an Elder Scrolls game with assassin's creed mechanics? That's the proper thing to ask. Not for the animation. You want the mechanics of the Assassin's Creed series in Elder Scrolls.

Then it stops being either of those. It's something of a copy, a hybrid with a confusing mess. Sometimes it's pulled off well.


However what's frustrating is when you follow a game series as a developer for years. Improving from the very first game into what it is today and you see how it's grown and then have people say "This should be more like this game!"

No. No it should not. Every game, good and bad has their identity. When you say "this should be this way, like this game is!" You get what has dimished and damaged the gaming community as a whole

The "Halofied/Call of Dutifed" games. The endless shooters with the exact same mechanics, prettier animations and graphics and none of the true part of the game that gives it it's identity. The mechanics. You want to change Elder scrolls into an anime, or assassin's creed clone? You take away the soul of what is the Elder scrolls game.


Can The Elder Scrolls mechanics be improved? Of course they can. Everything can be improved. But to change what makes a game successful stops it from being what, by it's very soul, it is.

The best and worst examples of this are Resident Evil. Resident Evil 4 was the best example of a change in mechanics unlike any other, yeah it can be great and work sometimes.


But now look at the horrible game that is RE6 and the mediocre RE5 that is almost the exact copy of RE4 (Quite literally. First village is an ambush, chainsaw villain and so on)

If you're against the repetitive first person shooters, never say things like "This game should be like this" because you'll end up being a hypocrite.

If you like the mind-numbingly endless release of repetitive shooters, more power to you, but let games that have a different path stay on their path. We don't need any more clones of the same repetitive games over and over and over, ruining the market with over-saturated gameplay.

Lastly, this isn't a personal attack on you by any means. I just feel this has to be said for all to read and understand that games need their identity and when you want them to copy each other, it diminishes the value of not only the original product, but the game you want them to copy.
I'm listing examples in how they would make the fighting much more thrilling, they can keep their own identity but also make it more fun to kill things and to watch others fight, not to copy each other. This is how you can come up with great NEW ideas is to look at what's already out there and learn where it went wrong and where it went right, if no one ever did that, we wouldn't have video games, we wouldn't have the cars we see today, or houses, or even ROADS! There is nothing wrong with learning where others have gotten the right idea and incorporate it into your own game like First person perspective. This isn't an 8-16 bit RPG where you must use your imagination, we are given the fight and that's how it looks. And yes, I know animation as well and no, many people have their own charm in their animation and their art style but many already use outside sources from which they learned how to animate/draw. I learned how to animate frame-by-frame in Flash and how Disney would make their movies like in Pinocchio with the layers of paintings and frames. To see people swinging wildly with no reaction at all, it gets tiring and boring. As Colleen has added on, being unable to move past something like her own dog blocking her in the door way, this goes into climbing/jumping/AI and discussing how they could improve AI also could use outside references to convey your point, this isn't about how Bethesda should be more like Ubisoft, this post is all about using examples to convey my point and what I would see which could make it more thrilling so calm down.Let's say you had to unequip weapons, shields, and spells in order to use your hands to help you climb, how about the fact you couldn't do it if you're over-encumbered or even by stepping up as well, perhaps you can't wear heavy armor in order to cling to the mountain side for very long because it drains your stamina, no stamina then no clinging or climbing, this can also bring back the Acrobatics skill they removed after Oblivion. Then let the fun commence when someone finds another Fortify Restoration glitch and now can leap from point A - point B regardless of distance, I remember seeing a friend do that in Morrowind on his PC.

The fight animation isn't what got Skyrim so many awards, the jumping mechanics weren't either, what got the awards was the story, the graphics, the immersible world, the sand box, fast traveling... which by the way all of the above were using outside resources to improve on and even utilize in their own game. They hired outside people (a couple of my sister's friends as well) to help with the concept art for the mountain scenery and dungeons. Some games still struggle with the fast traveling mechanics such as Assassin's Creed, ACII had to go to stables to pay the guy, select your desired location in a list, then wait a bit. In Brotherhood and Revelations you had to use the underground passageways, in ACIII is where it got weird, you can fast travel kinda like Bethesda but it put you in front of the transition marker like from area 1 to area 2 as if you left it... but you gotta... still.... go... through.... hmmmmmm....

Edit: Lastly, on your side with what you were saying about changing something drastically. Fallout. Look at the DRAMATIC difference, all of the Fallout fans from 1 and 2 hated the fact that Bethesda changed it around to what it is today, they hated how Bethesda made it a "mirror of Elder Scrolls", they utilize a lot of the same things, I personally love the changes but many of the fans do not, thanks to Bethesda's changes however brought even more public attention to the games. If you've seen the first 2 games and compared them to Fallout 3 and New Vegas, you'd have no trouble seeing the major differences in... almost everything.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
I'm listing examples in how they would make the fighting much more thrilling, they can keep their own identity but also make it more fun to kill things and to watch others fight, not to copy each other. This is how you can come up with great NEW ideas is to look at what's already out there and learn where it went wrong and where it went right, if no one ever did that, we wouldn't have video games, we wouldn't have the cars we see today, or houses, or even ROADS! There is nothing wrong with learning where others have gotten the right idea and incorporate it into your own game like First person perspective.

This is where you're very mistaken. You are asking to make the mechanics of Elder Scrolls like another game, not to expand on it's own content. Would you want a Mario game to be more like Legend of Zelda? Would you want a Kirby game to stop being about kirby sucking up his enemies and gaining their powers and becoming something like Pokemon?

There is a difference between improving on what mechanics a game uses and taking mechanics from something else and calling it your own.


This isn't an 8-16 bit RPG where you must use your imagination, we are given the fight and that's how it looks. And yes, I know animation as well and no, many people have their own charm in their animation and their art style but many already use outside sources from which they learned how to animate/draw. I learned how to animate frame-by-frame in Flash and how Disney would make their movies like in Pinocchio with the layers of paintings and frames.

Congratulations, then you know the suffering and terrible practices Disney's company put on animators back then and still do to this day. This isn't an argument about you wanting animation. I've explained this, you want different mechanics. You want to change the technical aspect of Elder Scrolls.


To see people swinging wildly with no reaction at all, it gets tiring and boring. As Colleen has added on, being unable to move past something like her own dog blocking her in the door way, this goes into climbing/jumping/AI and discussing how they could improve AI also could use outside references to convey your point, this isn't about how Bethesda should be more like Ubisoft, this post is all about using examples to convey my point and what I would see which could make it more thrilling so calm down.

How AI work and how the mechanics of Skyrim's combat system are not the same thing.

Let's say you had to unequip weapons, shields, and spells in order to use your hands to help you climb, how about the fact you couldn't do it if you're over-encumbered or even by stepping up as well, perhaps you can't wear heavy armor in order to cling to the mountain side for very long because it drains your stamina, no stamina then no clinging or climbing, this can also bring back the Acrobatics skill they removed after Oblivion. Then let the fun commence when someone finds another Fortify Restoration glitch and now can leap from point A - point B regardless of distance, I remember seeing a friend do that in Morrowind on his PC.

I don't think you're very familiar with the concept "What's great on paper isn't good in practice." You think Bethesda's employees haven't had these brilliant ideas? That they would cast such concepts aside? Of course not, neither would I. See, this here is improving on BETHESDA'S Mechanics, not bringing in someone else's (Ex. Assassin's Creed).

You need to learn that sometimes Gameplay needs to take precedent over ideas that can slow the game down too much. This is the exact reason Bethesda and Zenimax allow modding and the creation kit's release and add-ons for ESO. They're a company, what suits us for immersion in today's market isn't always welcome to the masses. You need to be realistic. It sucks sometimes, but these companies work for YEARS. They can't give you everything.


The fight animation isn't what got Skyrim so many awards, the jumping mechanics weren't either, what got the awards was the story, the graphics, the immersible world, the sand box, fast traveling... which by the way all of the above were using outside resources to improve on and even utilize in their own game.

Show me evidence.

Edit: Lastly, on your side with what you were saying about changing something drastically. Fallout. Look at the DRAMATIC difference, all of the Fallout fans from 1 and 2 hated the fact that Bethesda changed it around to what it is today, they hated how Bethesda made it a "mirror of Elder Scrolls", they utilize a lot of the same things, I personally love the changes but many of the fans do not, thanks to Bethesda's changes however brought even more public attention to the games. If you've seen the first 2 games and compared them to Fallout 3 and New Vegas, you'd have no trouble seeing the major differences in... almost everything.


This is a terrible argument. If anything it reinforces what I've been saying. Is fallout fun? Yes, sure. I love fallout too just like you. But remember, Fallout 1 and 2's mechanics were very different in their time, and a lot of people argue that it's just a shooter.

Guess what? It mostly is. It's a first person shooter with a terrible VATS system throw in that makes the game unimmersive and takes away a lot from the fast pace action of the shooting.

Fallout isn't a bad game, but it's nothing new. It really is Elder Scrolls with guns. Why do you think Bethesda uses the same engines for Oblivion and Fallout? And are going to use Skyrim's engine for fallout 4?

Is this bad? That's debatable. Some love it, some don't.

Also, your "calm down" comment was cute. Shows you didn't read my post thoroughly since I too gave an example of the best and worst examples in changing mechanics for good and ill.
 

Benthos

Proud Mer
I'm listing examples in how they would make the fighting much more thrilling, they can keep their own identity but also make it more fun to kill things and to watch others fight, not to copy each other. This is how you can come up with great NEW ideas is to look at what's already out there and learn where it went wrong and where it went right, if no one ever did that, we wouldn't have video games, we wouldn't have the cars we see today, or houses, or even ROADS! There is nothing wrong with learning where others have gotten the right idea and incorporate it into your own game like First person perspective.

This is where you're very mistaken. You are asking to make the mechanics of Elder Scrolls like another game, not to expand on it's own content. Would you want a Mario game to be more like Legend of Zelda? Would you want a Kirby game to stop being about kirby sucking up his enemies and gaining their powers and becoming something like Pokemon?

There is a difference between improving on what mechanics a game uses and taking mechanics from something else and calling it your own.


This isn't an 8-16 bit RPG where you must use your imagination, we are given the fight and that's how it looks. And yes, I know animation as well and no, many people have their own charm in their animation and their art style but many already use outside sources from which they learned how to animate/draw. I learned how to animate frame-by-frame in Flash and how Disney would make their movies like in Pinocchio with the layers of paintings and frames.

Congratulations, then you know the suffering and terrible practices Disney's company put on animators back then and still do to this day. This isn't an argument about you wanting animation. I've explained this, you want different mechanics. You want to change the technical aspect of Elder Scrolls.


To see people swinging wildly with no reaction at all, it gets tiring and boring. As Colleen has added on, being unable to move past something like her own dog blocking her in the door way, this goes into climbing/jumping/AI and discussing how they could improve AI also could use outside references to convey your point, this isn't about how Bethesda should be more like Ubisoft, this post is all about using examples to convey my point and what I would see which could make it more thrilling so calm down.

How AI work and how the mechanics of Skyrim's combat system are not the same thing.

Let's say you had to unequip weapons, shields, and spells in order to use your hands to help you climb, how about the fact you couldn't do it if you're over-encumbered or even by stepping up as well, perhaps you can't wear heavy armor in order to cling to the mountain side for very long because it drains your stamina, no stamina then no clinging or climbing, this can also bring back the Acrobatics skill they removed after Oblivion. Then let the fun commence when someone finds another Fortify Restoration glitch and now can leap from point A - point B regardless of distance, I remember seeing a friend do that in Morrowind on his PC.

I don't think you're very familiar with the concept "What's great on paper isn't good in practice." You think Bethesda's employees haven't had these brilliant ideas? That they would cast such concepts aside? Of course not, neither would I. See, this here is improving on BETHESDA'S Mechanics, not bringing in someone else's (Ex. Assassin's Creed).

You need to learn that sometimes Gameplay needs to take precedent over ideas that can slow the game down too much. This is the exact reason Bethesda and Zenimax allow modding and the creation kit's release and add-ons for ESO. They're a company, what suits us for immersion in today's market isn't always welcome to the masses. You need to be realistic. It sucks sometimes, but these companies work for YEARS. They can't give you everything.


The fight animation isn't what got Skyrim so many awards, the jumping mechanics weren't either, what got the awards was the story, the graphics, the immersible world, the sand box, fast traveling... which by the way all of the above were using outside resources to improve on and even utilize in their own game.

Show me evidence.

Edit: Lastly, on your side with what you were saying about changing something drastically. Fallout. Look at the DRAMATIC difference, all of the Fallout fans from 1 and 2 hated the fact that Bethesda changed it around to what it is today, they hated how Bethesda made it a "mirror of Elder Scrolls", they utilize a lot of the same things, I personally love the changes but many of the fans do not, thanks to Bethesda's changes however brought even more public attention to the games. If you've seen the first 2 games and compared them to Fallout 3 and New Vegas, you'd have no trouble seeing the major differences in... almost everything.


This is a terrible argument. If anything it reinforces what I've been saying. Is fallout fun? Yes, sure. I love fallout too just like you. But remember, Fallout 1 and 2's mechanics were very different in their time, and a lot of people argue that it's just a shooter.

Guess what? It mostly is. It's a first person shooter with a terrible VATS system throw in that makes the game unimmersive and takes away a lot from the fast pace action of the shooting.

Fallout isn't a bad game, but it's nothing new. It really is Elder Scrolls with guns. Why do you think Bethesda uses the same engines for Oblivion and Fallout? And are going to use Skyrim's engine for fallout 4?

Is this bad? That's debatable. Some love it, some don't.

Also, your "calm down" comment was cute. Shows you didn't read my post thoroughly since I too gave an example of the best and worst examples in changing mechanics for good and ill.
Wow, just wow. You just want an argument when there never was, I was simply giving examples in what could be looked upon and utilized as if nobody can do it without changing everything or at least by changing one thing then suddenly a game loses its identity and charm and you STILL are acting like I want to change everything that Skyrim or any Elder scrolls is about. If you stop for a moment, put some thought into it without quickly going on the defense as if touching something will make the game different and not their work at all. Change the aspects of a Kirby game because we would want to try something different or touch up something? Is that your example? Guess what, they've been doing that throughout the last few Kirby games, Epic Yarn, Crystal Shards on N64 added power combinations to it and people still ask for that to return, Return to Dreamland added the ultra power up and used 4-man co-op like New Super Mario Brothers and even Triple Deluxe returned to the ultra power up.
You want examples of using outside resources? Well, let's take a look at some sandbox games that came out before Elder Scrolls started using it, how about we start looking at games that used First Person perspective prior to Elder Scrolls, how about magic using, how about a waiting function or something similar, fast travel, skills and leveling up... Dragon Quest, perhaps? But not just that, just look up the tropes on google and ask which games used what Elder Scrolls used and which ones came first. Anyone is free to look at something successful and utilize their own on it like the wave of zombie movies, video games, and perhaps even the constant vampires in media as well.

"This is where you're very mistaken. You are asking to make the mechanics of Elder Scrolls like another game, not to expand on it's own content. Would you want a Mario game to be more like Legend of Zelda? Would you want a Kirby game to stop being about kirby sucking up his enemies and gaining their powers and becoming something like Pokemon?

There is a difference between improving on what mechanics a game uses and taking mechanics from something else and calling it your own."

How am I mistaken? How would giving Mario the spin jump make it more like Zelda? Or perhaps giving Mario the ability to use a new power up make it more like Pokemon? It doesn't, that's one addition or improvement which does NOT change a game from what it's intended and that's the same level of difference - giving Elder Scrolls a climbing mechanic won't change the fact that it's Elder Scrolls, improving the combat system by making those fighting respond to every hit landed on them does not change the fact that it's an Elder Scrolls game. I still don't see how on Earth that changes a game unless you change much more than just what I've listed. Do you lack the confidence that Bethesda could use climbing mechanics without having to change the game entirely or do you miss my point even in this paragraph? I said calm down for a reason, giving an example or two doesn't change the fact that you're clearly upset by my statement.
Your argument of the difference of Fallout is exactly what goes to this last statement, in order to change a game entirely like they did with Fallout, you must change a lot about it not just one or two things updates or installed. Fighting a dragon, guess what, it's a kill cam addition to the battle system. Did that change Elder Scrolls? No, a lot of people say it's even better, who do I need to bring up for this last statement? Those who gave Skyrim a ton of awards - even moreso than what they gave to Oblivion. People would've also mentioned how refreshing it is to climb mountains with ease as opposed to Oblivion where you would have had to walk around because you couldn't climb over something if they utilized a climbing mechanic like I explained.

It's also different in Disney today as opposed to back then, today it's mostly computer generated and they use more people to animate a scene as opposed to ONE GUY having to animate an entire song and dance on his own. Look at behind the scenes of Snow White, a dropped song, it's easier on them now than back when since technology is vastly improved, man power is also improved. Yes, they still give problems to their teams but it's mostly dealt with the time they give you to finish something in which it hasn't changed much.
 

Crowley

Active Member
I forgot about the unarmed wrestling moves. Thing is, they didn't go far enough. No stunner or Rock bottom? I can't drop the people's elbow? There isn't even a jacknife powerbomb.
There go my hopes of ever being Dieselkiin...
 

Ivory

Let's Player
"This is where you're very mistaken. You are asking to make the mechanics of Elder Scrolls like another game, not to expand on it's own content. Would you want a Mario game to be more like Legend of Zelda? Would you want a Kirby game to stop being about kirby sucking up his enemies and gaining their powers and becoming something like Pokemon?

There is a difference between improving on what mechanics a game uses and taking mechanics from something else and calling it your own."

How am I mistaken?


You are mistaken because for all the massive wall of text you've written your words fall flat. Changing something small is one thing, and as I've said multiple times I'm not ignorant to changing a game's mechanics is insta-bad. I told you this with my example of RE4.

Changing something can be bad or good, yeah there is no argument there. My point that you still fail to see is.

"Elder scrolls is a first person, third person hack and slash. It should have more flare! Mechanics like Assassin's Creed with flips and jumps!"

You know what else has those same mechanics and falls flat? Cursed Crusade. My point is, what works for one game doesn't mean it will work for another. You seem to think I'm upset when I'm simply trying to explain to you how simple a concept it is for you to realize that Elder Scrolls if given a massive overhaul copy of another game to its core gameplay won't be what we've come to know and expect.

Every game has been improved versions of its predecessor. It's as simple as "Why fix what isn't broken?" Elder Scrolls for its, as you put it, "Boring" hack and slash, has been far more successful than any assassin's creed game. They've been refining ES gameplay mechanics for years now.

Why would you want them to abandon it for a copy of Assassin's Creed gameplay when you can simply...play assassin's creed?
 

Benthos

Proud Mer
I don't want them to abandon anything, they can utilize their own version of the mechanics by taking a look at another game and what they did successful and twist it around with their own flavor, again it all comes down to Bethesda and how they can work things into their games. They just made an amazing Wolfenstein as well as a great game like Dishonored. There's the Evil Within to show they can work with other companies very well just like Obsidian using their engine for New Vegas. This has nothing to do with changing the entire game or making the characters behave just like in AC, a climbing mechanic LIKE Assassin's Creed will improve the exploring immensely and it doesn't require much to base it off of. I already have my own copies of Assassin's Creed, most but not all of them, I also have Oblivion and Skyrim, used to have Morrowind. It doesn't take a fan of AC to see where it succeeds and where it fails just the same as with any other video game. We're not talking about mirroring the game like Battlefield with COD or Rock Band and Guitar Hero. Just ONE mechanic. Same as the fast travel from Bethesda and render a closer version in AC.
Look at the cut scene for when you climb into the back of a carriage, why not use THAT in other places? Click to activate it after running up to a ledge and then your character can climb. Have a few different animations for different landscapes. A big step up, one requiring arms (therefore you must unequip weaponry), and another where you must navigate while in the scenario.
 

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