Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage


I find it odd that of all people, you're throwing in the towel. Pelinal Whitestrake. Ok. Pelinal. Mfing Whitestrake. is what the Empire needs.

Someone who will make them pay for running up the score after the War Ended.

No one gains anything by running and hiding other than the Thalmor. In this type of War, you DO NOT give up real estate. You suffer and slug it out. If your company is corrupt you slug them out.

If the Nords gain nothing by worshiping Talos in secret then the Empire gains nothing by running and hiding.


This. It is all about the benefits. What do the Nords gain by being able to rule themselves and worship Talos openly without the Empire telling them things? They had that for almost since they joined the Empire outside of taxes. They gain more by being a part of the Empire instead of apart from it.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Cause they don't care who you worship ~ You're dead. If the Thalmor won't allow the Forsworn to be free, they won't allow Skyrim to be free. Because Ulfric and them, everyone had their hand in the pie on that one.

I'd rather take my chances taking order from Gen Tully who leads from the front then Jarl Ulfric who leads from the back.

Then leaves your a$$ to scream and beg for your life... and don't know you anymore after the war ends... and gives a heart felt speech about not getting involved in foreign matters and then CHANGES HIS STANCE at Solitude saying, "Oh well there's a coming Darkness... uwww Spooky"
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Cause they don't care who you worship ~ You're dead. If the Thalmor won't allow the Forsworn to be free, they won't allow Skyrim to be free. Because Ulfric and them, everyone had their hand in the pie on that one.

I'd rather take my chances taking order from Gen Tully who leads from the front then Jarl Ulfric who leads from the back.

Then leaves your a$$ to scream and beg for your life... and don't know you anymore after the war ends... and gives a heart felt speech about not getting involved in foreign matters and then CHANGES HIS STANCE at Solitude saying, "Oh well there's a coming Darkness... uwww Spooky"


If I had to choose in order to survive, I pick up the greatsword for the Empire over the morons any day.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Stormcloaks: "We're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us."

Empire: "Give us your resources, convert to our religion and away from your heathen Gods. Give us your men so that we might use them to further our conquests. Give us your lands, so that we might grant our Nobles them. Pay our staggering taxes, so that we may fund our bureaucracy which is corrupt. Fund our Legions, so they may keep you civilized, but at the same time do not lift a finger if your citizens are being attacked by bandits. "

Me: "Stormcloaks are evils "

Fixed.

So then DrunkenMage, you just roll over and give the Thalmor what they want? Your realize Cyrodil will get a tan and will prob be enslaved if Thalmor win the next round.

The Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory either.

Empire's always had it's ups and downs. Right now it is lacking leadership. I don't like Ulfric and I don't like his personal militia.

Right now Ulfric and his 'personal militia' are what many in Skyrim are siding with. More and more join their cause. The Empire underestimates the ability of the Nords.

I find it odd that of all people, you're throwing in the towel. Pelinal Whitestrake. Ok. Pelinal. Mfing Whitestrake. is what the Empire needs.

The Empire needs to stop clutching onto Skyrim, focus on Cyrodiil. This war could of been avoided, the Empire forced itself to be involved, unwilling to lose control of Skyrim. Who's silver is what pays for their debts, who's warriors are what conquered provinces for them.

The Empire can barely maintain Cyrodiil, let alone stretch itself further away from the heartlands. Stormcloaks don't seek a war with the Empire, only to remove the corrupt rot from their homeland.

No one gains anything by running and hiding other than the Thalmor. In this type of War, you DO NOT give up real estate. You suffer and slug it out. If your company is corrupt you slug them out.

The Empire is corrupt. Always has been, for hundreds of years.

Skyrim saved the Empire last time, if it did once it can do it again ba not under Ulfric. They'll sit back and watch Cyrodil burn out of spite.

No. The Nords won't sit back, they seek to rebuild their province back to being great, they seek to train their armies (Which are being trained by ex Legionnaires) and then take the war to the Thalmor.

Cyrodiil is the province that will simply sit back while you burn. They did it with Morrowind and they did it with Black Marsh.

This. It is all about the benefits. What do the Nords gain by being able to rule themselves and worship Talos openly without the Empire telling them things?

The ability to train their armies without Thalmor interference. The ability to prepare for war, without the Thalmor interruptions. The ability to worship Talos, so that the Thalmor doesn't destroy his influence. Yes, Gods can lose their influence in Tamriel. Stop worshiping Talos, stop his temples and his priests. No more can he grant blessings. He'd fade away, like so many Gods of old that once had power in the mortal realm.

It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods. This my own conjecture, garnered from the apparent ability of the larger temples to attain blessings and assistance from their God with greater ease than smaller religious institutions.

They had that for almost since they joined the Empire outside of taxes. They gain more by being a part of the Empire instead of apart from it.

What do they gain being part of the Empire? Thalmor dragging away their loved ones, Imperial soldiers getting drunk and killing a Nord here and there. Doesn't matter though, since the Empire considers them barbarians and savages.

I'd rather take my chances taking order from Gen Tully who leads from the front then Jarl Ulfric who leads from the back.

Tullius leads from the front? Besides Battle for Windhelm, I don't recall fighting alongside Tullius.

"Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." - General Tullius

"Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks." - General Tullius
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage: The Civil War is not about logic or anything. It is simply about which side whose bias you like more than the other. In the end, that is all that matters.

And logistically, Cyrodiil will fall without Skyrim's Silver and metal for the war. Stormcloaks win, Empire gets absolutely nothing: no silver to pay the soldiers, not metal to make the weapons and armor, and less men to make the actual army. Stormcloaks win, the Nords would have to make a new Empire to stand a chance.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
With the situation regarding the Thalmor, both the Great War and the White-Gold Concordat.

Is the Empire unable or unwilling to protect it's citizenry?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
With the situation regarding the Thalmor, both the Great War and the White-Gold Concordat.

Is the Empire unable or unwilling to protect it's citizenry?

OR is the Empire trying to recuperate from the last time they got their butts handed to them and the Stormcloaks are overreacting?

Stormcloaks are a plague, and the Empire is the cure.

Empire will win because that is how it is, it is all about the Empire, not Talos or Ulfric or anyone person, but the whole of the Empire.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
OR is the Empire trying to recuperate from the last time they got their butts handed to them and the Stormcloaks are overreacting?

They were warned, over a hundred and fifty years ago. Warned repeatedly, by those who had escaped the Thalmor, by the Blades, by the Penitus Oculatus. The Empire was warned of the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor threat. Yet here were are in 4E 201, thirty years after a surprise war, bound into a treaty which allowed the Thalmor to operate throughout the Empire with impunity, to slowly poison the Empire's nobles.

"Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." - General Tullius, Diplomatic Immunity

"The degeneracy of the Empire is on display here in this room." - Ondolemar, Diplomatic Immunity.

Yet the Empire ignores it's citizens being taken on the vague grounds of being a Talos worshiper or knowing Talos worshipers. Where the Empire simply sweeps it under the rug, tells you to ignore it. Says don't ask about it, they no longer exist.

But the Stormcloaks are overreacting? When the people who are supposed to protect you, simply ignore your plight and you take a stance. You're overreacting?

Empire will win because that is how it is, it is all about the Empire, not Talos or Ulfric or anyone person, but the whole of the Empire.

The Third Empire shown in Skyrim is at one of it's lowest points in history. It has been on the decline for 200 years, still declining.

You know, Ondolemar can explain your position quite easily. On your views of how Talos doesn't matter.

"None of these people cares a whit about the religious aspects of this war. Another sign of the degeneracy of your Empire." - Ondolemar
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And logistically, Cyrodiil will fall without Skyrim's Silver and metal for the war. Stormcloaks win, Empire gets absolutely nothing: no silver to pay the soldiers, not metal to make the weapons and armor, and less men to make the actual army. Stormcloaks win, the Nords would have to make a new Empire to stand a chance.

Soldiers are paid in gold Septims. Cyrodiil's East Empire Company gets the materials Cyrodiil needs from all over Tamriel (Including Skyrim) Cyrodiil has an army, most of it's Legions are already on the Dominion's borders.

So what is Cyrodiil losing?

Why would the Nords need to make a new Empire to stand a chance? You don't need an Empire, Skyrim's new army is being trained by ex Legionnaires. When the Great War happens, they plan to be apart of it. Leading Tamriel to victory as they say, so they're not going to sit it out.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Empire will fall without Skyrim. Cyrodil can't stand on it's own. They were overwhelmed in short order during the Great War.

Without Skyrim, Cyrodil can't focus on itself. Cyrodil will fall. Skyrim and Cyrodil need each other. They don't have to like each other though. Cyrodil needs their raw materials and Skyrim needs to be fed. Istald understood this. Besides, a coward's wrath is presently known and Ulfric sure fits that bill. I can't follow a man who willfully overthrows and subverts HIS local Gov.

They're economic allies same as Morrowind. Skyrim will be called upon to stop the Dominion again, same as before. When that time comes, I would Gen Tullius or someone responsible was in charge as opposed to a Radical mal-content whose policies move with the shifting sand.

Just like when I was in the military ~ You protect your nation from enemies both foreign and domestic. Killing the High King Torygg, (whom Ulfric claims was a real Nord and whom Torygg followed in policy) then refusing to allow a bi-partisan Moot to meet for your own political gain IS JUST AS WRONG AS DENYING FREEDOM OF RELIGION. One man's party should not rule the country, there should be a counter voice to keep Gov honest and Ulfric is intentionally denying this.

And apparently, since majority of my original arguments (many of which are being presented by DrunkenMage now) have been ignored, I'll take my leave of this thread for now. Winner, like it, I present it and it's all wrong. Like the time I brought up Ondolomor's comments which guys said was all wrong and now it's right.

Others change sides, nah, it's k. I change sides and now I'm not supposed to be taken seriously anymore. ;)

Whatever. Aside from that, look at me the big Imperial now, once again uuwww. *sigh* I join the 'cloaks ---> Back to Empire. I try joining the Thalmor ---> Back to Empire, I try joining the Empire ---> Remembered to wait and join the Post Mede Empire.

I guess the Empire is in my blood or some kind of thing. I like animals and am usually the voice of reason when what few friends I have are going thru hard times. I dislike dishonest people and usually have a live and let live persona.

Seriously, you think I'd have learned by now. :p

Too bad the Dwemer aren't still around. They'd have all of this pl*ps sorted out in a New York minute. The Orcs remind me of the Dwemer, they have much in common.

 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Empire will fall without Skyrim. Cyrodil can't stand on it's own. They were overwhelmed in short order during the Great War.

Without Skyrim, Cyrodil can't focus on itself. Cyrodil will fall. Skyrim and Cyrodil need each other. They don't have to like each other though. Cyrodil needs their raw materials and Skyrim needs to be fed. Istald understood this. Besides, a coward's wrath is presently known and Ulfric sure fits that bill. I can't follow a man who willfully overthrows and subverts HIS local Gov.

They're economic allies same as Morrowind. Skyrim will be called upon to stop the Dominion again, same as before. When that time comes, I would Gen Tullius or someone responsible was in charge as opposed to a Radical mal-content whose policies move with the shifting sand.

Just like when I was in the military ~ You protect your nation from enemies both foreign and domestic. Killing the High King Torygg, (whose father was a real Nord and whom he followed in policy) then refusing to allow a bi-partisan Moot to meet for your own political gain IS JUST AS WRONG AS DENYING FREEDOM OF RELIGION. <--- Caps

And apparently, since majority of my original arguments (many of which are being presented by DrunkenMage now) have been ignored, I'll take my leave of this thread for now. Winner, like it, I present it and it's all wrong. Like the time I brought up Ondolomor's comments which guys said was all wrong and now it's right.

Others change sides, nah, it's k. I change sides and now I'm not supposed to be taken seriously anymore. ;)

Whatever. Aside from that, look at me the big Imperial now, once again uuwww. *sigh* I join the 'cloaks ---> Back to Empire. I try joining the Thalmor ---> Back to Empire, I try joining the Empire ---> Remembered to wait and join the Post Mede Empire.

I guess the Empire is in my blood or some kind of thing. I like animals and am usually the voice of reason when what few friends I have are going thru hard times. I dislike dishonest people and usually have a live and let live persona.

Seriously, you think I'd have learned by now. :p

Too bad the Dwemer aren't still around. They'd have all of this pl*ps sorted out in a New York minute. The Orcs remind me of the Dwemer, they have much in common.


It's all about how you present an argument. Knowing when to throw in a piece of dialogue.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
30811.jpg
NENALATA said:
Empire will fall without Skyrim. Cyrodil can't stand on it's own. They were overwhelmed in short order during the Great War.​
Without Skyrim, Cyrodil can't focus on itself. Cyrodil will fall. Skyrim and Cyrodil need each other. They don't have to like each other though. Cyrodil needs their raw materials and Skyrim needs to be fed. Istald understood this. Besides, a coward's wrath is presently known and Ulfric sure fits that bill. I can't follow a man who willfully overthrows and subverts HIS local Gov.​
They're economic allies same as Morrowind. Skyrim will be called upon to stop the Dominion again, same as before. When that time comes, I would Gen Tullius or someone responsible was in charge as opposed to a Radical mal-content whose policies move with the shifting sand.​
Just like when I was in the military ~ You protect your nation from enemies both foreign and domestic. Killing the High King Torygg, (whose father was a real Nord and whom he followed in policy) then refusing to allow a bi-partisan Moot to meet for your own political gain IS JUST AS WRONG AS DENYING FREEDOM OF RELIGION. <--- Caps​
And apparently, since majority of my original arguments (many of which are being presented by DrunkenMage now) have been ignored, I'll take my leave of this thread for now. Winner, like it, I present it and it's all wrong. Like the time I brought up Ondolomor's comments which guys said was all wrong and now it's right.​
Others change sides, nah, it's k. I change sides and now I'm not supposed to be taken seriously anymore. ;)
Whatever. Aside from that, look at me the big Imperial now, once again uuwww. *sigh* I join the 'cloaks ---> Back to Empire. I try joining the Thalmor ---> Back to Empire, I try joining the Empire ---> Remembered to wait and join the Post Mede Empire.​
I guess the Empire is in my blood or some kind of thing. I like animals and am usually the voice of reason when what few friends I have are going thru hard times. I dislike dishonest people and usually have a live and let live persona.​
Seriously, you think I'd have learned by now. :p
Too bad the Dwemer aren't still around. They'd have all of this pl*ps sorted out in a New York minute. The Orcs remind me of the Dwemer, they have much in common.​
It's all about how you present an argument. Knowing when to throw in a piece of dialogue.


I think you're trying to help me on that, so I'll agree with you.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
That's it then. Alls well ends well. Na where did I put that Gladius at... Hmmm... I'm sure no one will mind if I use a Dwarven Longsword instead.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Lore by itself is weak, all lore has holes in it. But when you throw in dialogue at the right moment, you deliver something that is more crushing. I did that all the time when debating, I'd find the smallest fault in the Stormcloaks and explode on it, find the largest in the Empire's and downplay it.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Lore by itself is weak, all lore has holes in it. But when you throw in dialogue at the right moment, you deliver something that is more crushing. I did that all the time when debating, I'd find the smallest fault in the Stormcloaks and explode on it, find the largest in the Empire's and downplay it.


Plus you know... Solitude is so empty without the Imperials and Windhelm is so much better with them around.
 

Caideus

Member
Lore by itself is weak, all lore has holes in it. But when you throw in dialogue at the right moment, you deliver something that is more crushing. I did that all the time when debating, I'd find the smallest fault in the Stormcloaks and explode on it, find the largest in the Empire's and downplay it.


Plus you know... Solitude is so empty without the Imperials and Windhelm is so much better with them around.

Tullius may be the Devil himself but he's no coward and least I know what he stands for. Ulfric == Shifting Sands. And we all know how bldging a house on that works out... XD

I have spent so much time thinking of this time and time again, going over what I know for sure and in the there is only one sure fact about all of it. There is no Septim sitting on throne. Rather you prefer the traditional or the other story of how Talos came to be, the fact still remains.

Sometimes you will hear, The Empire is the only thing keeping Aldmeri Dominion out of Skyrim...
Yet we know that isn't true. As there have been times that death squads are sent after the player and there is even the side quest to turn in a Talos worshiper.

That is enough for me to support a man that I have no love for. Who I do not want on the Throne as High King. But placing him there will ensure that no more are tortured by the Aldmeri Dominion, that is enough for me.

For if I back the Empire, who am I really saving then? If the Aldmeri decided to take Skyrim, I know Ulfric would meet them, sword in hand and Thu'um at his command. But I doubt the Aldmeri would dare such a move during his rein. Rather they would wait longer still to continue building there resources and being booted out of Skyrim, this would hinder that effect. Skyrim can always rejoin the Empire, but considering all things, it is better that Skyrim gains its independence.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
I hear ya. There was a time when I had to go into Rebellion mode too, wasn't pretty. However, I shor am better off now because of it.

I rebelled because I was honest enough to see what they didn't see and so I realized fast that it was my duty to take care of myself which was in line with, "what I was supposed to be doing".

Difference is, this rebellion in Skyrim shouldn't be happening. It was engineered, I mean people are always going to be upset with the Empire over something.

However, I've seen fine and honest people make a wrong move and end up starring down the barrel of a gun. With ALL the good men against them. Then, their enemies move in, slit the throat and cry fowl, saying this person is such and such when it's all either a misunderstanding or an outright lie.

I Believe this is to be the case here with this Empire. I cannot in good conscience condemn the entire Empire (which fought for Skyrim's Freedom) when everything was doing just fine (better than that) before the Thalmor showed up. And I also can't condemn the entire bloody Empire over what it's silly Emperor has done.

In this case, Ulfric needs to pay for all the blood being shed over something that could have been resolved by a Bi-Partisan Moot of Stormcloak & Imperial Jarls either before or after Torygg's death.

Furthermore, Torygg DID NOT have to die. Skyrim has a local Gov. Ulfric has said that Torygg's father, Istlad was a true Nord. So, Ulfric honors Itslad by taking out his son who either did not have the proper counsel to deal with Ulfric's request or he himself felt as High King he had something to prove.

And I mean, I'm sure the Dragonborn, being well... a Dragonborn could fill the role as Emperor once more. Think about it. Would you rather have Ulfric's crazy a$$ on the throne in Skyrim, or see a Dragonborn *once more* rule over the Empire of Talos? As long as the Blood of Talos lives (like with Martin) the Empire has hope. Not to mention how the Blades are regrouping. Ulfric will only bring division.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
And I also can't condemn the entire bloody Empire over what it's silly Emperor has done.

Titus Mede II was a good Emperor, it is easy to blame him because he is the symbol. But the problems are with the Elder Council who have never backed the Mede Dynasty, even though they were one of the best line of Emperors.

Titus II, saved the Empire, same as Titus I.

The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years. As we know, the Thalmor nearly achieved their objective. It was only because of our Emperor's determined leadership during the Empire's darkest hour that this disaster was averted.

After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown. Whether he had rightful claim or not is moot. Without Titus Mede, there would not be an Empire today. He proved a shrewd and capable leader, such that Skyrim endorsed him as Emperor.

The Empire did extremely well in the Great War, destroying the entire Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil and leaving the Aldmeri army in Hammerfell greatly weakened and retreating across the desert. The next war will be an interesting one, all of Tamriel may be up in arms against the Thalmor. Skyrim, Hammerfell, High Rock & Cyrodiil would fight the Thalmor. Morrowind has no love for the Thalmor, so there could be a chance Redoran's armies may fight.

The Thalmor threaten all of Tamriel, they seek to rule all of Tamriel.
 

Delusional

Connoisseur of Hallucinations
How is this still going?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I have spent so much time thinking of this time and time again, going over what I know for sure and in the there is only one sure fact about all of it. There is no Septim sitting on throne. Rather you prefer the traditional or the other story of how Talos came to be, the fact still remains.

Septim's weren't all that great. Their dynasty was filled with wars, civil wars between the Septim's, rebellions. They actually had some of the worst Emperor's in all of Imperial history, dating back to the First Empire. You only ever really met two Septim's Uriel VII and Martin.

Sometimes you will hear, The Empire is the only thing keeping Aldmeri Dominion out of Skyrim...

They are, the Thalmor are different. When they say Aldmeri Dominion they're talking about the army. You'd know if the Dominion was in Skyrim, they'd have destroyed the Empire. The Empire has it's Legions of the Aldmeri's borders. Preparing for war.

Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes. - Tullius
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top