Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

OFFS what constitutes high treason and that Ulfric is guilty of it has been well established in the game and in this thread at least half a dozen times. Some of the players in here who are renewing the argument against it are either guilty of intellectual dishonesty or memory challenged stupidity. It doesn't matter how Uflric killed Torygg. It only matters that he killed him. High treason is a crime apart from homicide.

As for using Thu'um, we can only speculate, but it seems way off to use magic in a duel based on Nord traditions of warriors settling matters by right of challenge. Vilkas implies it's dishonorable in your initiation fight into the Companions. The Nords generally disdain its use. When you think in particular how powerful Thu'um is it's counter-intuitive to everything we know about Nord society that in an honor duel between two warriors you could simply call down the lighting and fry your opponent, or summon a Dragon to kill him for you, or turn him into a block of ice and it wouldn't be considered dirty pool by most Nords. If you want to think that's deemed honorable combat by Nords who generally believe in settling things with steel have fun with that but my character wasn't buying into that notion even when she joined the Stormcloaks.

I do believe we just got ass raped.

Though no one was disputing what counts as High Treason. Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

The question was, did Ulfric murder Torygg? Unless Ozan is changing his question to 'Did Ulfric commit High Treason?'

Which is yes, he did murder Torygg.

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

He knew exactly what he was going to do when he entered the Blue Palace.

It isn't like Ulfric walked up to the High King going "Hey Torygg... so crazy spur of the moment thought, give me your Kingdom."

Shoot. I just realized that Amaund Motierre is an agent of the Thalmor. . .

Lunaruse said:

Shoot. I just realized that Amaund Motierre is an agent of the Thalmor. . .

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He's not an agent of the Thalmor. He's a member of the Elder Council and from one of the most powerful families in Cyrodiil.

Dagmar said:

Lunaruse said:

Shoot. I just realized that Amaund Motierre is an agent of the Thalmor. . .

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He's not an agent of the Thalmor. He's a member of the Elder Council and from one of the most powerful families in Cyrodiil.

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He tries to frame the Stormcloaks, as was sighted prior in this thread, perhaps in order to keep the civil war going in a way and further increase tensions. That's how I view it as least, what do you think? Why would he attempt to frame the Stormcloaks?

The Dark Brotherhood frame the Stormcloaks, pulling Titus Mede II into Skyrim which he had been avoiding when the conflict broke out to not get himself involved. The death of his cousin at her wedding which was a symbol of peace between Imperials and Stormcloaks forces him to head into Skyrim to deal with the Civil War.

The Empire isn't giving the rebellion too much attention.

"If only we weren't so overstretched… Ulfric wouldn't be a problem at all… That what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If only the Emperor would give me the reinforcements that I've requested of him!"

Titus Mede II isn't diverting any proper Legions to deal with the conflict. Also from Ralof and Hadvar apparently it isn't that well known in Cyrodiil. It isn't getting the spot light.

Lunaruse said:

He tries to frame the Stormcloaks, as was sighted prior in this thread, perhaps in order to keep the civil war going in a way and further increase tensions. That's how I view it as least, what do you think? Why would he attempt to frame the Stormcloaks?

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As DrunkenMage pointed out that's the Dark Brotherhood's work not Amaund Mottiere's, and it's framing the Stormcloaks of collusion with Gaius Maro not the actual assassination of the Emperor.

Besides that, a rather obvious answer would be to divert attention from himself as a suspect. Treachery in the politics of the Empire isn't exactly novel and any powerful member of the Elder Council that stands to gain in status with the Emperor's death is going to otherwise be subject to scrutiny.

Astrid said:

Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious.

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I always laugh when I think of Motierre, since I keep picturing the next Emperor when facing an assassin going;

It looks like this is the end of poor Francois!

DrunkenMage said:

You don't get what I'm on about.

Yes, he is guilty in the eyes of the Legion. But he is also guilty in the eyes of many Nord citizens. He may of had more support had he killed the High King with his weapon or he may not have. The fact it is a large dispute is that he used the voice.

Hence why you have, Murder/Honorable Duel between half of Skyrim.

It isn't complaining he cheated. He claims his sword finished Torygg, if that didn't matter why is it such a large topic between everyone in Skyrim? Because of Honor. If you can't understand why that is such an important thing to the Nords, then you're fighting for the wrong group.

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My entire point is that it is pointless to point it out. The Legion aren't here because of the Thu'um, they are here because Torygg was killed. The fact that you feel so strongly on its importance, whether or not the Thu'um is a cheat or a valid form of combat (its not magic, its Thu'um!).

Ulfric didn't need the Thu'um to win, it was a message of force and a display of power.

If Ulfric is guilty of murdering the High King, then it isn't because he cheated. Its because he murdered the High King. If he cheated... so what? Why does it matter? I already think he's a douchebag, as do some other Stormcloak supporters. Quite frankly, I don't care if he cheated.

If it requires a great amount of time and discipline to master and is respected by every Nord who isn't a town guard because its considered an Ancient Nord Art... why is it excluded so quickly?))

Ozan said:

DrunkenMage said:

You don't get what I'm on about.

Yes, he is guilty in the eyes of the Legion. But he is also guilty in the eyes of many Nord citizens. He may of had more support had he killed the High King with his weapon or he may not have. The fact it is a large dispute is that he used the voice.

Hence why you have, Murder/Honorable Duel between half of Skyrim.

It isn't complaining he cheated. He claims his sword finished Torygg, if that didn't matter why is it such a large topic between everyone in Skyrim? Because of Honor. If you can't understand why that is such an important thing to the Nords, then you're fighting for the wrong group.

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My entire point is that it is pointless to point it out. The Legion aren't here because of the Thu'um, they are here because Torygg was killed. The fact that you feel so strongly on its importance, whether or not the Thu'um is a cheat or a valid form of combat (its not magic, its Thu'um!).

Ulfric didn't need the Thu'um to win, it was a message of force and a display of power.

If Ulfric is guilty of murdering the High King, then it isn't because he cheated. Its because he murdered the High King. If he cheated... so what? Why does it matter? I already think he's a douchebag, as do some other Stormcloak supporters. Quite frankly, I don't care if he cheated.

If it requires a great amount of time and discipline to master and is respected by every Nord who isn't a town guard because its considered an Ancient Nord Art... why is it excluded so quickly?))

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There is a difference between those in the Legion and those who are citizens. I was talking about support for his cause, many Nords would of felt using the Thu'um to be a violation of his duel, something Ulfric strongly defends he finished Torygg using his sword, also many Nords siding with Ulfric are defending it as an honorable duel.

It has importance to Nordic culture, their warrior belief and lives surrounding honor.

I was not talking about the Legions views, the Legion upholds Imperial law. We were not discussing Imperial law, you asked did Ulfric murder the High King. You did not say "Did Ulfric commit treason, is Ulfric guilty of treason" Unless you what to rephrase your initial question to something less general.

I gave you the view of those who are calling the duel Murder. Not the view of the Imperial Legion. Thu'um or no Thu'um, Ulfric is guilty of High Treason and his punishment will be death.

My entire point is don't ask a question that you aren't asking. If you want the whole Imperial law etc etc answer then specify "Is Ulfric guilty in the eyes of the Empire for doing the duel? If so, why?"

Not

Ozan said:

Did Ulfric murder the High King? If so, why?))

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Ozan said:

(its not magic, its Thu'um!).

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The thu'um, also called the Storm Voice[1] or simply the Voice, is a form of magic inherent in most Nords and some others which uses the words of the language of the Dragons to form "Shouts", the equivalent of spells, of immense power.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu'um

Ivory said:

Ozan said:

(its not magic, its Thu'um!).

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The thu'um, also called the Storm Voice[1] or simply the Voice, is a form of magic inherent in most Nords and some others which uses the words of the language of the Dragons to form "Shouts", the equivalent of spells, of immense power.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu'um

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Inherent in MOST Nords. Anyone can LEARN the Thu'um but not all do because of the immense discipline and time. You are also chosen to learn the Thu'um, unlike conventional magic.))

Ozan said:

Inherent in MOST Nords. Anyone can LEARN the Thu'um but not all do because of the immense discipline and time. You are also chosen to learn the Thu'um, unlike conventional magic.))

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Does not change the fact it IS Magic. Stop being silly.

Ulfric said that He challenged Torygg in the traditional way, and he accepted it. Now all you Imperial fanatics on this thread can please show me a lore regarding to Nordic traditions indicating that using the Thu'um is considered cheating?

Had Torygg used the Thu'um to kill Ulfric would you view him as a murderer? Or would you view this mighty High King as a strong hero over his victory?

Raijin said:

Ulfric said that He challenged Torygg in the traditional way, and he accepted it. Now all you Imperial fanatics on this thread can please show me a lore regarding to Nordic traditions indicating that using the Thu'um is considered cheating?

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Cheating in battle is not what I would call it.

I'd call it a disrespect for the Nordic tradition of the Greybeards. The Thu'um for normal mortals is meant for worship, while Akatosh's gift can be used however the Dragonborn pleases. It is disrespectful for a mortal (Ulfric or even Torygg) to use it in a manner for which it was not meant.

That's my standing on the duel anyway. Ulfric ran, knowing he commited high treason by Empire law and broke his oath as an imperial solider. There is no defending a man who broke his word and contract in the end, who knew full well what he was doing was 100% illegal. It's almost like signing a lease and then refusing to pay because the landlord has rules you signed off on.

Ivory said:

Cheating in battle is not what I would call it.


I'd call it a disrespect for the Nordic tradition of the Greybeards. The Thu'um for normal mortals is meant for worship, while Akatosh's gift can be used however the Dragonborn pleases. It is disrespectful for a mortal (Ulfric or even Torygg) to use it in a manner for which it was not meant.


That's my standing on the duel anyway. Ulfric ran, knowing he commited high treason by Empire law and broke his oath as an imperial solider. There is no defending a man who broke his word and contract in the end, who knew full well what he was doing was 100% illegal. It's almost like signing a lease and then refusing to pay because the landlord has rules you signed off on.

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Are the Greybeards part of the Nordic tradition? Do they make up all the rules? Thu'um for normal mortals are not meant for worship but a tool to use during battle. Paarthurnax taught Gormlaith Golden-Hilt, Hakon One-Eye and Felldir the Old to use the tongue, not to worship him but to to turn the tide in the Dragon War.

"If they had their way, you'd do nothing but sit up on their mountain with them and talk to the sky, or whatever it is they do. The Greybeards are so afraid of power that they won't use it. Think about it. Have they tried to stop the civil war, or done anything about Alduin? No. And they're afraid of you, of your power. Trust me, there's no need to be afraid. Think of Tiber Septim. Do you think he'd have founded the Empire if he'd listened to the Greybeards?" - Delphine

Raijin said:

Are the Greybeards part of the Nordic tradition? Do they make up all the rules? Thu'um for normal mortals are not meant for worship but a tool to use during battle. Paarthurnax taught Gormlaith Golden-Hilt, Hakon One-Eye and Felldir the Old to use the tongue, not to worship him but to to turn the tide in the Dragon War.

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That ended well with one their deaths and the failure to put a stop to Alduin.

Raijin said:

"If they had their way, you'd do nothing but sit up on their mountain with them and talk to the sky, or whatever it is they do. The Greybeards are so afraid of power that they won't use it. Think about it. Have they tried to stop the civil war, or done anything about Alduin? No. And they're afraid of you, of your power. Trust me, there's no need to be afraid. Think of Tiber Septim. Do you think he'd have founded the Empire if he'd listened to the Greybeards?" - Delphine

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This would matter if Arngier himself didn't say The Dragonborn is the Exception to all the Rules. He does not in any way force you to follow in the Way of the Voice. In fact, they willingly bend to the change that the greybeards had to endure to aid the Dragonborn in defeating Alduin. Something the "Blades" refuse to do, forcing the Dragonborn to slay our beloved mentor Paarthurnax because they can't accept the bigger picture.

By the way, Tiber Septim was Dragonborn. He was no mere mortal, but one of the Dragon blood. Thus, another exception to all the rules.


EDIT: Also, Paarthurnax also follows the Way of the Voice.

You'd need one day, out of an eternity, for Paarthurnax to turn back to what he used to be, he said it himself, he struggles everyday. Also Paarthurnax means Ambition Tyranny Cruelty, as much as one can reject his true nature, the 'Ambition' part could give a hint on later events if left alive.

For the Thu'um itself, it's hard to explain because the Greybeards never mentioned Ulfric or what happened to him at that moment. But I'd bet on the symbolic value, just like the Jagged Crown aswell as an edge in combat, "if they see me handling the power of old I'll have better chances to become High King". The purpose is indeed a violation, but the Greybeards won't do anything, the best they'd do is to close the access to High Hrothgar.

Ivory said:

I'd call it a disrespect for the Nordic tradition of the Greybeards. The Thu'um for normal mortals is meant for worship, while Akatosh's gift can be used however the Dragonborn pleases. It is disrespectful for a mortal (Ulfric or even Torygg) to use it in a manner for which it was not meant.

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The use of Thu'um by the Nords predates the Greybeards and Jurgen Windcaller. The Tongues were traditionally taught to use it in warfare and the fact that Tiber Septim used it and was revered by the Nords runs counter to the notion that Jurgen Windcaller's way is the only way respected by the Nords.

It's still comes off as dishonorable when one warrior challenges another to a duel. It's like saying "en garde!" and then pulling out a gun and shooting the guy.


Real honorable.

Dagmar said:

Ivory said:

I'd call it a disrespect for the Nordic tradition of the Greybeards. The Thu'um for normal mortals is meant for worship, while Akatosh's gift can be used however the Dragonborn pleases. It is disrespectful for a mortal (Ulfric or even Torygg) to use it in a manner for which it was not meant.

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The use of Thu'um by the Nords predates the Greybeards and Jurgen Windcaller. The Tongues were traditionally taught to use it in warfare and the fact that Tiber Septim used it and was revered by the Nords runs counter to the notion that Jurgen Windcaller's way is the only way respected by the Nords.

It's still comes off as dishonorable when one warrior challenges another to a duel. It's like saying "en garde!" and then pulling out a gun and shooting the guy.

Real honorable.

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Indiana Jones is the most manliest of men! With exception of his most recent adventure, of course.

Besides, how much sword training does Indie have? They are both proficient with their own weapons and if using what you are good with in a fight is wrong, then everyone loses.))

Ivory said:

Ozan said:

Inherent in MOST Nords. Anyone can LEARN the Thu'um but not all do because of the immense discipline and time. You are also chosen to learn the Thu'um, unlike conventional magic.))

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Does not change the fact it IS Magic. Stop being silly.

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Bah! I suppose you're right.

But in my defense, it is a different type of magic. As most magic casters are shunned by Nord society, the Greybeards are still highly respected despite focusing their entire lives to this particular magic.

Besides, some people in ES can't cast magic at all. If anyone can use the Thu'um (so long as they are disciplined, etc) and not everyone can use regular magic, then the Thu'um is much more user friendly. Especially since it doesn't eat Magicka.

So really... Is it acceptable to class it with other magics?))