Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

I'm just generally curious as to what you view are the reasons to fight against the Empire?

Edit: Apologies if you get two of my posts, the forum is lagging and for some reason will double post the exact same thing.

Ozan think of the Bretons if Skyrim leaves the empire you are hurting high rock. Ha idk if that's true just a guess.

DrunkenMage said:

I'm just generally curious as to what you view are the reasons to fight against the Empire?

Edit: Apologies if you get two of my posts, the forum is lagging and for some reason will double post the exact same thing.

Click to expand...

Eh? Lag?

Anyways, why would I want to join the Empire? I think they are tactically flawed They fail to commit. They Don't hold as much power as they think they do. The laws they have only seem to protect the heirarchy. Why defend a High King who would have left them if asked?

Mostly, I dislike them because I see a lot of our modern day governments in them. I dislike them because I feel they have lost touch with the people. The Stormcloaks are prehistoric pelt-ridden savages. But at least they are free to govern themselves. They are free from foreign influence.

If Ulfric would politely fall off a cliff, I wouldn't mind. But as you've said, the Jarls determine how their holds are governed. So everything everyone fears doesn't really matter. All the taxes the people will have to pay will just be going to Skyrim and only Skyrim. So in reality...

It doesn't matter if I am Stormcloak or Imperial.

Obama is a lying f***face and he prosecutes people who provides the truth, is responsible for military grade weapons in the hands of Mexican Cartels, and murders children. However, he also legalized Gay marriage and legalized marijuana. Is Obama like Ulfric? No. But people feel that for such items and topics like marijuana, they can tolerate the death of children.

I feel similar. For the freedom of Talos Worship and push against Thalmor, I can tolerate the death of a King and Legionaires.))

I would be fine if the Stormcloaks let their Jarls govern, but they don't. Ulfric tells Galmar to keep the Jarls under control. That doesn't sound like freedom to govern their own hold.

Both sides have their flaws, I just feel the Stormcloaks have bigger ones.

And don't get me started on Obama.....

The Laoch said:

I would be fine if the Stormcloaks let their Jarls govern, but they don't. Ulfric tells Galmar to keep the Jarls under control. That doesn't sound like freedom to govern their own hold.

Both sides have their flaws, I just feel the Stormcloaks have bigger ones.

And don't get me started on Obama.....

Click to expand...

The Imperials are the same way. But for the most part, I think the Jarls are just making a bunch of demands and requests, probably funding for something silly like roads or asking for more troops, like most states and provinces in modern society (though less so with troops). He has to give in to some of their needs but he also has to deny some because he still has a war to fight and though diverting funds to make the lives of the people easier is openly hoped for... it doesn't really work when bunch of other people who also want that.

If the Empire were willing to stop taking crap and actually fight for provinces and not abandon them (IE, Morrowind), maybe I would be more sympathetic. Morrowind, Hammerfell... So, who is next up to pay taxes and get thrown under the bus? That is my problem.))

Ozan said:

And how do we know that the Imperials aren't basing this view off the brother? One just care about finances, why should he care who is in charge. He'll still have his wealth.))

Click to expand...

I see your point, and the game itself never touches on where he actually stands. Thongvor, on the other hand, is oboviously a Stormcloak and after he is put on the throne, he expresses that he wants to violently suppress and enslave the rebelling Forsworn dissidents by sending them to Cidhna Mine as reparation for the rebellion that took place over 20 years ago. Sounds kinda familiar though, doesn't it?

"A demagogue is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, prejudices, and ignorance of the less-educated citizens in order to gain power and promote political motives. Demagogues usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; they accuse moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness."

if you exclude the part of democracy, it sounds almost exactly like Ulfric.

"Ulfric Stormcloak is a political leader who appeals to the emotions, prejudices, and ignorance of the less-educated citizens in order to gain power and promote political motives. Ulfric usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; he accuses moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness,"

DrunkenMage said:

I have a question for you to ponder Raijin.
If Imperials are so weak and cowardly, always surrendering. Then how come all the prisoners walking around are Stormcloaks and how Ulfric surrendered without a fight to General Tullius, knowing he would be executed along with his men?
Seems to me the only people who are getting captured or surrendering all the time are the Stormcloaks.

Click to expand...

The Imperials are weak because they have a weak leader; Emperor Titus Mede II. He is not only weak but incapable of making proper decisions, which cost the lives of so many soldiers and citizens back then. It was Titus piss poor decisions that brought the Thalmor to raid the city. All the blood that was spilled was on his hands. Just like the United States Government had soaked up our flag with blood when they invaded Iraq, and lied to the world about their reasons.

The difference between Ulfric Stormcloak and your previous Emperor Titus Mede II is that at least Ulfric chooses his battles carefully. He is an equivalent to the General that warned Mede II about not starting a war against the Thalmor. You criticizes him for “giving up” but at least he avoided a blood bath, even know he fully acknowledge that the Imperials were going to execute him and his men.

The Imperials love torturing people... So yeah. They prefer to capture their prisoners so that people such as this man

Could get a kick outta torturing their prisoners as they slowly die in a painful way.

Lunaruse said:

"A demagogue is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, prejudices, and ignorance of the less-educated citizens in order to gain power and promote political motives. Demagogues usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; they accuse moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness."

if you exclude the part of democracy, it sounds almost exactly like Ulfric.

"Ulfric Stormcloak is a political leader who appeals to the emotions, prejudices, and ignorance of the less-educated citizens in order to gain power and promote political motives. Ulfric usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; he accuses moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness,"

Click to expand...

I see. Very interesting stuff. And, strangely enough, a more compelling argument then most thrown out already, though it is using a lot of the past arguments. Probably helps you didn't write a novel to explain a minor detail (thank you...)

Anyways, I still feel a bit of a macabre comfort. He, being the now associated title demagogue, he killed a person in power who I would have openly opposed should I have lived in the ES series. By killing this person and for brandishing a cause we can all believe, in he would have my support. But... Why?

Perhaps because there is a fuel for this effort. This warpath was broiled and even predicted. The banning of Talos may not be the immediate reason for the return of the dragons, but it is a part as the prophecy did say "When the sons and daughters of Skyrim spill their own blood." Clearly, the civil war was meant happen, it is destiny for Ulfric to start this war.

But it isn't destiny for it to end. Just saying.

The primary fuel source, however... is the Thalmor. If you want them out, you kick them out. You wouldn't invite the enemy in your nation, why invite the enemy into your house? To prepare for war? No, you either fight or you submit. You win the war and then you fight it.

I am to believe the Empire will simply protect Skyrim? Despite signing a Treaty that said the Thalmor could HAVE Hammerfell? The Redguard is human too, no? If the Thalmor asked for Skyrim, the Empire would sell it in a heart beat to protect her petty monarch.

I am not impressed, nor would I be impressed. The Empire is a bottomfeeder, not a nation.))

I will say they should of named the civil war the war of secession, I felt with the exception of Rikke and Hadvar the imperial legion was filled with imperials. They should of had more guys that looked like Nords and more women, so it felt like a civil war.

Take the American revolution, there were loyalists that didnt want to secede and fought the patriots that did, but we don't call it a civil war.

The primary fuel source, however... is the Thalmor. If you want them out, you kick them out. You wouldn't invite the enemy in your nation, why invite the enemy into your house? To prepare for war? No, you either fight or you submit. You win the war and then you fight it.

Click to expand...

Who that called my name?

Somebody call me? Heretics going door to door again? No? Oh, well uhhh never mind.

NENALATA said:

The primary fuel source, however... is the Thalmor. If you want them out, you kick them out. You wouldn't invite the enemy in your nation, why invite the enemy into your house? To prepare for war? No, you either fight or you submit. You win the war and then you fight it.

Click to expand...

Who that called my name?

Somebody call me? Heretics going door to door again? No? Oh, well uhhh never mind.

Click to expand...

We're all heretics when the lights go out. ;D ))

ROFLMAO

I am to believe the Empire will simply protect Skyrim? Despite signing a Treaty that said the Thalmor could HAVE Hammerfell? The Redguard is human too, no? If the Thalmor asked for Skyrim, the Empire would sell it in a heart beat to protect her petty monarch.

Click to expand...

Question for you and/or Raijn. Didn't Istlod (High King of Skyrim at the time) sign off on the WGC? And if so, which seems to be the case, should not all Nords respect his wishes as High King? The obvious intent was to make sure what was left of the Empire stayed together. If the High King decided thusly, shouldn't the Nords (Stormcloaks) owe it to tradition as such to respect his wishes? And, if Ulfric openly admits that Istlod (Torygg's father) was the proper High King, is it not hypocrisy to say otherwise?

Had the Empire not signed the WGC, surely we would have destroyed them thru a slower war of attrition, seeing how the Dominion's infrastructure held. Even though true, our Primary army in Cyrodil was destroyed at Red Ring. We still occupied at least (4) of their cities in Cyrodil which could not be successfully sieged with their broken Legions. And Legions are virtually useless if they are undermanned.

I would say the Empire had no other choice but to sue for peace, however, this does not mean Titus Mede II wasn't a CRAP NEGOTIATOR.

Perhaps if Jarl Siddgeir had been Emperor at the time, the milk drinkers could have hammered out a better deal. Jarl Siddgeir is the closest man can get to Elven perfection.

NENALATA said:

I am to believe the Empire will simply protect Skyrim? Despite signing a Treaty that said the Thalmor could HAVE Hammerfell? The Redguard is human too, no? If the Thalmor asked for Skyrim, the Empire would sell it in a heart beat to protect her petty monarch.

Click to expand...

Question for you and/or Raijn. Didn't Istlod (High King of Skyrim at the time) sign off on the WGC? And if so, which seems to be the case, should not all Nords respect his wishes as High King? The obvious intent was to make sure what was left of the Empire stayed together. If the High King decided thusly, shouldn't the Nords (Stormcloaks) owe it to tradition as such to respect his wishes? And, if Ulfric openly admits that Istlod (Torygg's father) was the proper High King, is it not hypocrisy to say otherwise?

Had the Empire not signed the WGC, surely we would have destroyed them thru a slower war of attrition, seeing how the Dominion's infrastructure held. Even though true, our Primary army in Cyrodil was destroyed at Red Ring. We still occupied at least (4) of their cities in Cyrodil which could not be successfully sieged with their broken Legions. And Legions are virtually useless if they are undermanned.

I would say the Empire had no other choice but to sue for peace, however, this does not mean Titus Mede II wasn't a CRAP NEGOTIATOR.

Perhaps if Jarl Siddgeir had been Emperor at the time, the milk drinkers could have hammered out a better deal. Jarl Siddgeir is the closest man can get to Elven perfection.

Click to expand...

War is exploitation of your enemies' ignorance. Why did Titus Mede II not tell the Thalmor "We have crushed your mighty army and mutilated your prestigious general. We do not want war, but will continue to eradicate your soldiers until it is achieved." Rather than roll over? Why did he not use testosterone to alter the treaty? How would the Elves find out his army is depleted?

Mede lacked cunning and backbone. His city both burned and drowned in ash and blood. I weep not for the death of its nation, but I will mourn the suffering of her people.

White-Gold Tower should be destroyed. The Aldmeri disbanded. And the High King of Skyrim should be killed.

I am content with Istrod's line being severed.))

Thank you.

Interesting you mention this line:

War is exploitation of your enemies' ignorance. Why did Titus Mede II not tell the Thalmor "We have crushed your mighty army and mutilated your prestigious general. We do not want war, but will continue to eradicate your soldiers until it is achieved." Rather than roll over? Why did he not use testosterone to alter the treaty? How would the Elves find out his army is depleted?

Click to expand...

You do realize that Titus Mede II was *eventually* (albeit bloodily) vindicated from his abandonment of IC yes? And I'm sure people said the same when he ran away to Skyrim. Could it possibly be that this is part of say, mmmmm we'll call it "Phase 2"? Because, someone on here was talking about, "The Talos Mistake" a while back. In this book, it strongly promotes the WGC and also talks about how the WGC was signed by TMII because for him it was 'personal'. The author (Ambassador to the Thalmor from the Empire) goes on to explain how TMII did not believe Talos was a 'God' and that worship of Talos was keeping people away from 'true devotion' to the Eight.

However, what's unusual about this is how TMII is wearing a Talos Amulet after his resignation.

Furthermore, all evidence suggests the WGC was enforced in name only ~ Prior to Ulfric's meddling at Markarth, forcefully disposing of a Peaceful, Neutral state and then banning their Gods in favor of his own.

Could it not be, that Titus Mede II had other plans and that we used Ulfric Stormcloak's rage and ego to make his Rebellion official causing more attention to the WGC in an effort to circumvent TMII's overall strategy?

And more importantly, would it not be a conflict of interest for a freedom fighter to strip away the freedoms of his neighbors for his own gain? Tell me, how does one obtain freedom(s) by forcing someone else into loosing theirs to said party? Wouldn't this not indicate that the party doing the taking is not actually interested in protecting Freedom?

If the Nords and esp the Stormcloaks refuse to allow the Reachmen to enjoy the same freedom(s) the Nords claim they deserve from the Empire, and Nords OBJECT to the Reachman having them, why do the Nords deserve freedom? What makes you as a people worth saving when you will not allow others to be... 'saved'.


And the more I keep thinking about it, the more I come to realize just how badly the Thalmor are needed in Skyrim. Don't you worry, we can get things done in ways the Empire never thought of. Promise. =D

Raijin said:

DrunkenMage said:

I have a question for you to ponder Raijin.
If Imperials are so weak and cowardly, always surrendering. Then how come all the prisoners walking around are Stormcloaks and how Ulfric surrendered without a fight to General Tullius, knowing he would be executed along with his men?
Seems to me the only people who are getting captured or surrendering all the time are the Stormcloaks.

Click to expand...

The Imperials are weak because they have a weak leader; Emperor Titus Mede II. He is not only weak but incapable of making proper decisions, which cost the lives of so many soldiers and citizens back then. It was Titus piss poor decisions that brought the Thalmor to raid the city. All the blood that was spilled was on his hands. Just like the United States Government had soaked up our flag with blood when they invaded Iraq, and lied to the world about their reasons.

The difference between Ulfric Stormcloak and your previous Emperor Titus Mede II is that at least Ulfric chooses his battles carefully. He is an equivalent to the General that warned Mede II about not starting a war against the Thalmor. You criticizes him for “giving up” but at least he avoided a blood bath, even know he fully acknowledge that the Imperials were going to execute him and his men.

The Imperials love torturing people... So yeah. They prefer to capture their prisoners so that people such as this man

Could get a kick outta torturing their prisoners as they slowly die in a painful way.

Click to expand...

It would of cost the lives of thousands more had Titus II accepted the ultimatum, this is a foolish argument against the Empire and you know it. Had the Empire simply laid down arms and given Southern Hammerfell, banned the worship of Talos, paid staggering amounts of tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion as was asked in the Ultimatum. It would of been Civil war.

I highly doubt that you, who goes on about the weakness of Imperials for surrendering, would suddenly pick up the banner had the Empire simply rolled over. Your argument is a contradiction to your entire belief. Ulfric Stormcloak is nothing, nothing like the Imperial Generals that advised Titus Mede of Military weakness, because Ulfric only cares about war. He and many of the Nords wanted more blood, even if it led to the total destruction of all the Legions in a suicide run into the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Would you be defending the Empire had it accepted the ultimatum? With Civil Wars raging all across the Empire, thousands of innocents dying while the Empire shatters and fights itself? No you wouldn't, you would be exactly where you are now calling the Empire cowards. Thousands died defending their lands from an invasion. Better to die fighting for your homes and love ones than to die fighting so whoever you're following may claim the Ruby Throne.

You have no idea how that analogy between the war in Iraq and the Great War in the TES universe, is beyond stupid? The Empire didn't invade the Aldmeri Dominion, they were defending. The United States of America is not the Third Empire of Tamriel.

I find another contradiction about torture, weren't you in favor for torture in another thread? While torture today is considered not an effective way to gather information, in the time of The Elder Scrolls it is.

Also I wouldn't be throwing too many stones since Windhelm's Palace of the Kings has torture equipment. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks themselves are not above torture.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

NENALATA said:

You do realize that Titus Mede II was *eventually* (albeit bloodily) vindicated from his abandonment of IC yes? And I'm sure people said the same when he ran away to Skyrim. Could it possibly be that this is part of say, mmmmm we'll call it "Phase 2"? Because, someone on here was talking about, "The Talos Mistake" a while back. In this book, it strongly promotes the WGC and also talks about how the WGC was signed by TMII because for him it was 'personal'. The author (Ambassador to the Thalmor from the Empire) goes on to explain how TMII did not believe Talos was a 'God' and that worship of Talos was keeping people away from 'true devotion' to the Eight.

Click to expand...

Where does it say Titus Mede II ran away to Skyrim? He went North but never left Cyrodiil.

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri [sic] forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna.

He went to link up with reinforcements that were marching South from Skyrim.

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. The Emperor encouraged them in their belief that he was preparing to surrender; meanwhile, he gathered his forces to retake the Imperial City.

In what is now known as the Battle of the Red Ring, a battle that will serve as a model for Imperial strategists for generations to come, Titus II divided his forces into three. One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus, was hidden in the Colovian Highlands near Chorrol. The Aldmeri were unaware that he was no longer in Hammerfell, possibly because the Imperial veterans Decianus had left behind led Lady Arannelya to believe that she still faced an Imperial army. The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal. The main army was commanded by the Emperor himself, and would undertake the main assault of the Imperial City from the north.

@DunkenMage

The point was he retreated, he ran away. It doesn't really matter why he left or where he went. He left.

If this is important to you, then you can believe whatever you want.

However, if you consider how the action of the Emperor running away from, oh, excuse me (clears throat) retreating from IC must have looked to the casual observer, I'm sure there were people saying things like, "Oh it's a corrupt and dying Empire..." what with the Emperor abandoning of all things the IC.

Very similar I would say to the ban on Talos. Which is why Ulfric was so important to the Thalmor, what with letting him go and all. I still disagree with our involvement in that, however Ulfric would have found a way to make trouble regardless.

Far as we know, in the before time there was no Ulfric around to play the accuser and hate on the Empire, TMII had everything he needed to win. And I would say the Empire walking out of that had some positive results.

Though again, I have no special love for the Empire, esp next to Elven Perfection, heh could you imagine? It would be more beneficial to the Dominion and for the people who live in the Empire's Provinces were it to survive.

There are other things to be taken into consideration. We can rule all of Tamriel with what we have. That White Gold Tomb has always been nothing but a problem for us.

Even so, there's a ton of history and still some mystery about the White Gold Tower. And for someone to suggest 'burning it down' is unthinkable. I would also like to take this opportunity to suggest the Stormcloaks could rip down the statue of Azura in Skyrim or perhaps even the Mage's College should they have their way. Then there's eliminating East Empire CO in Skyrim, harassment of Imperial Provinces, murdering Elven civilians which even if by some twist of fate Ulfric wasn't behind, he would do nothing to stop it by the other Nords. Not to mention the Nords enslaving anyone who stands up to them, like they plan on doing in Markarth and Ysgramor did back in the day.

NENALATA said:

@DunkenMage

The point was he retreated, he ran away. It doesn't really matter why he left or where he went. He left.

If this is important to you, then you can believe whatever you want.

However, if you consider how the action of the Emperor running away from, oh, excuse me (clears throat) retreating from IC must have looked to the casual observer, I'm sure there were people saying things like, "Oh it's a corrupt and dying Empire..." what with the Emperor abandoning of all things the IC.

Very similar I would say to the ban on Talos. Which is why Ulfric was so important to the Thalmor, what with letting him go and all. I still disagree with our involvement in that, however Ulfric would have found a way to make trouble regardless.

Click to expand...

Why Titus II left the Imperial City does matter, yes there may of been some resentment for him abandoning the Imperial City instead of making a last stand to the death. Titus II was vindicated after the Battle of the Red Ring, to which nearly the entire Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

I don't see why you would disagree with Thalmor involvement for the Stormcloaks. Since you are role playing as a Thalmor in this thread, Ulfric's rebellion is weakening the Empire and keeping it distracted from waging war with the Aldmeri Dominion. Empire can't fight a war against the Thalmor while a Civil War is raging, if Skyrim remains part of the Empire or if becomes independent under Ulfric's tyranny. It still leaves nearly the entire Imperial Army and more than likely the West Imperial Navy on the Dominion's doorstep.

The Empire is unwilling to abandon over half the population who are in favor of remaining a part of the Empire. If the Imperials are pushed out of Skyrim it will not waste resources or soldiers to retake it. Chances are if Skyrim goes independent they will miss the next the Great War, Ulfric plans to rebuild Skyrim so unless he cuts corners, the Stormcloaks will be sitting in Skyrim playing with their thumbs for like the next hundred years, unless Ulfric is stupid enough to do what he talks about and take his entire army to the Dominion, which the only way for him to even do that without passing through provinces that hate Nords is to build a fleet of ships and sail for Alinor.

Would make for an excellent story, the brave defeat of Ulfric Stormcloak and his thousands of Nords who died attacking the shores of Alinor in their great ships like the Nords of Old raiding along the coasts.

And then we could take the ships and open the West Empire Trading CO and celebrate it's inception by having an Ulfric Skull-keg party on the beach.

Hmmm I've always played as either an Altmer or some kind of Elf, mostly Altmer. Personally, I think both of you guys are screw ups however ~ the Thalmor should be looking to make less enemies, not more of them.

I wouldn't want to be apart of a Nationalistic organization that claims to fight for freedom yet goes around taking away other people's freedom.

I wouldn't want to be apart of any Empire that would submit it's citizens to a foreign power and allow said power to subject it's citizens to their laws or values.

I am primarily an Altmer player, and I can understand why they are working so hard to put things back to right after Tiber Septim humiliated them in front of Tamriel, after Pelinal and the Alyssians butchered the Alyeids (even civilians) and sent them into hiding in the woods, after Ysgramor committed genocide against the Snowelves and even worse there are few or virtually no 'survivors' left of their line. If you get my meaning.

The lesson the Thalmor teach us in Skyrim, is the past is the past. No more excuses. No more screaming, no more running. The Thalmor are leading Tamriel into a bold new beginning... where men will have to actually earn their keep and learn their place again without keeping us from what's always been rightfully ours.

Raijin said: The difference between Ulfric Stormcloak and your previous Emperor Titus Mede II is that at least Ulfric chooses his battles carefully. He is an equivalent to the General that warned Mede II about not starting a war against the Thalmor. You criticizes him for “giving up” but at least he avoided a blood bath, even know he fully acknowledge that the Imperials were going to execute him and his men.

Click to expand...

I put it to you that the differences between these two men go far deeper than that. Ulfric, is a murderer and a proven coward. Mede II isn't perfect but he is no coward. If he was, he simply would have accepted the ridiculous terms of the WGC without a fight or any unpleasantness at all. Instead, he went to war with the Thalmor. Ulfric however, wasn't even man enough to accept Barlgruuf's challenge, why?, because like all cowardly bullies, he knew the odds were not in his favour, unlike when he faced the child-king Torygg. So he sent his army, in his place. When Ulfric is ambushed, it's game over as far as he knew. What happened to his "Victory or Sovngarde" persona. He knew he'd be put to death.

From A Dream of Sovngarde: Ysgramor raised his tankard to his lips and drank until the cup was empty. Then he spoke once more.
"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died."

Click to expand...

If Ulfric believes himself the High King of Skyrim, then why does he not fight to the death at this moment? A glorious death in battle, or a death on his knees at the chopping block like any common thief? He chooses the later because at heart, he has always been all bark and no bite. A true disgrace to all true Nords. Avoiding a blood bath won't win him entry into his beloved Sovngarde, no place for cowards in that hall.