Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
Well i have played both sides of the Civil War many times, and the reason Ulfric sent his army instead of himself is to show Skyrim how powerful the Stormcloaks were.


Oh that's nice. So, so in other words, what you're saying is that Torygg should have just sent the Imperial Army to handle Ulfric instead of being man enough to answer the duel proper?


I don't like Ulfric, but he can use the thu'um and if you ask me it would be very hard to beat Ulfric 1v1. I mean the man can just shout and you go flying.


What is right cannot be determined by strength. Of all people, Gen Tullius seems to understand this.


Wait what i meant was for the battle of Whiterun Jarl B wanted to 1v1 Ulfric, but Ulfric sent his army to show the strength of it.

And for the next part i was saying i rather fight with the empire against the Stormcloaks than 1v1 Ulfric. Granted i only fenced Sabre for a little so i feel if he was shouting at me and swinging an axe i'd be dead.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
And for the next part i was saying i rather fight with the empire against the Stormcloaks than 1v1 Ulfric. Granted i only fenced Sabre for a little so i feel if he was shouting at me and swinging an axe i'd be dead.


True. But you're the MAD GOD right? :) The "Hero of Cyrodil" one of only seven, ever.

You wouldn't believe how many times I'd get into this crazy fight with some Boss or even the Thalmor and forget I had that Whabbajack. Then I'd wip it out and turn them all into sweet roles.


Wait what i meant was for the battle of Whiterun Jarl B wanted to 1v1 Ulfric, but Ulfric sent his army to show the strength of it.


Ok, then. You're right. He showed their strength and at the same time, he also showed Skyrim who he really was.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
There are many reasons not to support the Stormcloaks, not just about Ulfric himself. Galmar gets placed in charge of the new Jarls, making sure they follow orders. The Holds were largely independent as was tradition respected by the Empire, the Pact of Chieftains is meaningless under Ulfric's tyranny.

Look at the Jarls that support him. While Maven Black-Briar isn't perfect she already ran the city during Stormcloak control. So it made no difference.

Markarth under the Silver-Bloods, planning to enslave the people of the Reach to work the mines, saying that is where they belong.

Jarl Skald, willing to sacrifice everyone in his Hold for glory, barely respected and wants Giants slain as mere monsters, while other Jarls also do this, he wants you to kill a Giant for the sake of it being there, not because it has harmed caravans or citizens. The Empire always demanded he leave them be, he waited for the chance when the Empire wasn't around to take suffering to the peaceful giants.

The Jarl of Winterhold, teaching his son that Dark elves are bad and that Mages learn only to kill and destroy at the College of Winterhold. No attempts to even try rebuild or establish relations with the College. The Imperial supporting Jarl however talks about repairing the relationship and rebuilding Winterhold to former glory.

Looking at Windhelm how can the Stormcloaks call the Empire oppressive, the state of Windhelm is shocking. It is falling a part and even at least Whiterun tries to maintain what it can, with it's walls falling apart but building wooden supporters and structures. Windhelm is also basically bankrupt, it's stockpiles are already empty. Major hold and a major city and it's stockpiles are empty? With Ulfric's poor management ability how does he intend to rule an entire province when he can't even do the bare minimum of looking after his own city.

You also have Jarl Siddgeir, while he is quite the idiot and not a very good Jarl, he's actually quite harmless. He leaves the running of the Hold to his Steward which the Jarl before him installed. Falkreath isn't doing too bad, it could be a lot worse.

You have to choose what is best for overall and I would have to pick the Imperial sided Jarls. Ulfric is a great speaker and all that, but given who will be ruling Skyrim, Stormcloak supporting Jarls + Galmar as Ulfric's right hand man. Skyrim would become something worse, twisted by the hatred of Ulfric, Galmar and his top Officers.

What about the other Elven races? Did you know all Elves are blamed for the troubles in Skyrim, speak to the Stormcloak supporter who will become Jarl in Markarth. He'll blame you even if you're a Dark Elf.

How does anyone in their right mind, side with someone who views peaceful negotiations as a sign of weakness.
 

The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
sheogorath-daedric-prince-of-madness-meme-generator-i-once-killed-a-man-purple-monkey-dishwasher-3ebf58.jpg


Ulfric does deserve death, but not by beheading. He deserves a trip to the Mad House.
 

The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
Yeah i forgot about the Jarls, The Empire Jarls are so much better. Except Maven, The new winterhold Jarl likes mages and the college. There is also Brina Merilis too (she is awesome), to name a few.
 

Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
I kinda wanted to see a Ulfric vs. Balgruuf 1v.1 and Balgruuf owned him both times with a weaker weapon and weaker armor and Ulfric used his shouts, too, even using the disarm shout and well. . . see for yourself how big of a bamf Balgruuf is.

 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
There's nothing to prove. He's guilty of high treason. Every version of what happened in Solitude including Ulfric's confirms this. Regardless of the circumstances, he inflicted harm (mortal harm) on the allegiated sovereign of Skyrim.

He still has the right to have fair trial whether hes guilty or not. I thought you had this option by Imperial law? To prove your innocence? Why hasn't the Empire given Ulfric the right to prove himself? Even know hes dead guilty for High treason? Care to share me lore about the history and current Imperial law? I would like to study about this so I can be on the same page as you are.

You can't contract to do something that's illlegal. That's jurisprudence 101. It's a basic tenet for invalidating contracts under common law. It's also simply common sense unless you actually think someone can hire someone to murder them and the murderer can wave the contract at the authorities and the courts as if it were some kind of get out of jail free card.

So what you're trying to tell me is that King Torygg committed a crime by accepting Ulfric's duel? That he doesn't know jurisprudence? He must be a terrible High King for not asking the Empire permission to battle with Ulfric, and to make this fight as legal as possible. It's not Ulfric's fault if Torygg was such a rotten king.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
There are many reasons not to support the Stormcloaks, not just about Ulfric himself. Galmar gets placed in charge of the new Jarls, making sure they follow orders. The Holds were largely independent as was tradition respected by the Empire, the Pact of Chieftains is meaningless under Ulfric's tyranny.

Look at the Jarls that support him. While Maven Black-Briar isn't perfect she already ran the city during Stormcloak control. So it made no difference.

Markarth under the Silver-Bloods, planning to enslave the people of the Reach to work the mines, saying that is where they belong.

Jarl Skald, willing to sacrifice everyone in his Hold for glory, barely respected and wants Giants slain as mere monsters, while other Jarls also do this, he wants you to kill a Giant for the sake of it being there, not because it has harmed caravans or citizens. The Empire always demanded he leave them be, he waited for the chance when the Empire wasn't around to take suffering to the peaceful giants.

The Jarl of Winterhold, teaching his son that Dark elves are bad and that Mages learn only to kill and destroy at the College of Winterhold. No attempts to even try rebuild or establish relations with the College. The Imperial supporting Jarl however talks about repairing the relationship and rebuilding Winterhold to former glory.

Looking at Windhelm how can the Stormcloaks call the Empire oppressive, the state of Windhelm is shocking. It is falling a part and even at least Whiterun tries to maintain what it can, with it's walls falling apart but building wooden supporters and structures. Windhelm is also basically bankrupt, it's stockpiles are already empty. Major hold and a major city and it's stockpiles are empty? With Ulfric's poor management ability how does he intend to rule an entire province when he can't even do the bare minimum of looking after his own city.

You also have Jarl Siddgeir, while he is quite the idiot and not a very good Jarl, he's actually quite harmless. He leaves the running of the Hold to his Steward which the Jarl before him installed. Falkreath isn't doing too bad, it could be a lot worse.

You have to choose what is best for overall and I would have to pick the Imperial sided Jarls. Ulfric is a great speaker and all that, but given who will be ruling Skyrim, Stormcloak supporting Jarls + Galmar as Ulfric's right hand man. Skyrim would become something worse, twisted by the hatred of Ulfric, Galmar and his top Officers.

What about the other Elven races? Did you know all Elves are blamed for the troubles in Skyrim, speak to the Stormcloak supporter who will become Jarl in Markarth. He'll blame you even if you're a Dark Elf.

How does anyone in their right mind, side with someone who views peaceful negotiations as a sign of weakness.

Yet after Imperial victory you still see Thalmor roaming freely on the roads capturing Talor worshipers. If you refuse to hand over Markarth to the Stormcloaks theirs still a unit of Thalmor in Markarth.

I think all but 1 Jarl from the Imperials side are essentially worthless.. but then again Skyrim is far from being a perfect country to live in.

Theirs no such thing as a perfect world.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Yet after Imperial victory you still see Thalmor roaming freely on the roads capturing Talor worshipers. If you refuse to hand over Markarth to the Stormcloaks theirs still a unit of Thalmor in Markarth.

I think all but 1 Jarl from the Imperials side are essentially worthless.. but then again Skyrim is far from being a perfect country to live in.

Theirs no such thing as a perfect world.

Least Empire supporting Jarls aren't planning on enslaving a native population. Or killing peaceful creatures for the sake of it. Also they're not spreading hatred of a certain race.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Yet after Imperial victory you still see Thalmor roaming freely on the roads capturing Talor worshipers. If you refuse to hand over Markarth to the Stormcloaks theirs still a unit of Thalmor in Markarth.


I think all but 1 Jarl from the Imperials side are essentially worthless.. but then again Skyrim is far from being a perfect country to live in.


Theirs no such thing as a perfect world.


Least Empire supporting Jarls aren't planning on enslaving a native population. Or killing peaceful creatures for the sake of it. Also they're not spreading hatred of a certain race.
When you say enslaving a native population are you indicating Forsworn? Forsworn aren't native but a local terroristic organization that declared war against the Reach. They're much worst than bandits. They kill all travelers on sight. I don't see a problem of the Silver-Blood family enslaving these people and throwing them inside Cidhna mine. Besides an Empire supporting Jarl was already doing it anyways.

Killing peaceful creatures? Oh you mean Giants. When you get close to some of them they attack. Do you honestly believe that their all peaceful? In fact other holds hires you to slay giants, even Balgruuf does it.

The Winterhold jarl teaches his son to hate elves while on the other hand jarl Siddgeir builds up a business relationship with the local bandits. He also pisses away government money on personal items like Mead.
 

The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.
on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.
some stuff from The Bear of Markarth you could claim some stuff is biased, but in the whole it is a pretty good read.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
When you say enslaving a native population are you indicating Forsworn? Forsworn aren't native but a local terroristic organization that declared war against the Reach. They're much worst than bandits. They kill all travelers on sight. I don't see a problem of the Silver-Blood family enslaving these people and throwing them inside Cidhna mine.

First of all, Forsworn are the native denizens of the Reach. They were the first humans to settle the area. Secondly I find it funny how a Stormcloak supporter is calling the Forsworn a "terroristic" organization, and how you don't seem to have a problem with slavery and yet you make claims that the Emperor is a tyrant. In fact the Stormcloaks and the Forsworn have more in common with each other then either side would care to admit, they're both fighting against what they consider oppressors and tyrants and they both feel that the land they're fighting for belongs to them.

Killing peaceful creatures? Oh you mean Giants. When you get close to some of them they attack. Do you honestly believe that their all peaceful? In fact other holds hires you to slay giants, even Balgruuf does it.

Giants have the capability to make decisions, they won't attack unless you get to close and disturb them, and Balgruuf hires you to kill giants because the first time you pass Whiterun the Companions are fighting one that has attacked a local farm. The giant Skaald hires you to kill has done nothing.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
He still has the right to have fair trial whether hes guilty or not. I thought you had this option by Imperial law? To prove your innocence?
Why would you think that? Smugglers in the Second Era never received trials and the penalty was death.
Galerion the Mystic said:
The trial of the smugglers was nonexistant, and the punishment swift. The body of Trechtus' father was kept hanging for weeks during the hottest summer Sollicich-on-Ker had seen in centuries.
This underscores what has been pointed out to you numerous times before, that the existence of a trial procedure doesn't equate to a right to a trial. A trial is at the option of the authorities. Most trials of antiquity were politically motivated. If it served the interests of the authorities then one was given a trial, and if it ran counter to the interests of the authorities one was denied a right to trial. A simple example of this is summary execution to avoid making a martyr of the excuted which may be why the Empire decided to have Uflric executed in Helgen rather than paraded through a trial in the Imperial City. A counter example is where Uriel III was going to be put on trial to enhance the legitmacy of Cephorus as Emperor during the War of the Red Diamond (for all the good it did - Uriel was lynched by the mobs before he could reach the capital city).
So what you're trying to tell me is that King Torygg committed a crime by accepting Ulfric's duel?
No. Killing or otherwise harming Ulfric isn't a crime. I realize that the law is unfair and lopsided from a contemporary point of view but that's how they rolled in fuedal societies.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Giants have the capability to make decisions, they won't attack unless you get to close and disturb them, and Balgruuf hires you to kill giants because the first time you pass Whiterun the Companions are fighting one that has attacked a local farm. The giant Skaald hires you to kill has done nothing.

Also, remember that Farmer you can run into along the roads who has an understanding with the giants. A crude understanding, but one nonetheless where the farmer gives the giants a cow and they don't bother the farmer or his crops/livestock. Further extending the point that giants can be communicated with. More so than the current Falmer who obviously have intellect with one another to build armor, tame creatures and even horde items of importance.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...AT LEAST ONE STORMCLOAK JARL VOTED FOR TORYGG....
Nobody voted for Torygg. He inherited the throne from his father. The Moot was convened to bear witness to Torygg's coronation. It was a ceremonial meeting not an authoritative one. The Moot only has the power to elect a High King when the High King dies without any heirs. It's been that way for thousands of years.
Pocket Guide to the Empire - 1st Edition said:
Upon the murder of King Borgas by the Wild Hunt (see Aldmeri Dominion - Valenwood), the Moot's failure to appoint the obvious and capable Jarle Hanse of Winterhold sparked the disastrous SkyrimWar of Succession, during which Skyrim lost control of its territories in High Rock, Morrowind, and Cyrodiil, never to regain them. The war was finally concluded in 1E420 with the Pact of Chieftans; henceforth, the Moot was convened only when a King died without direct heirs, and it has fulfilled this more limited role admirably. It has only been called upon three times in the intervening millenia, and the Skyrim succession has never again been disputed on the field of battle.
 

Ozan

the Magnificent Bastard
Oh... This forum has not budged a fluffing inch. How I missed it...))
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
When you say enslaving a native population are you indicating Forsworn? Forsworn aren't native but a local terroristic organization that declared war against the Reach. They're much worst than bandits. They kill all travelers on sight. I don't see a problem of the Silver-Blood family enslaving these people and throwing them inside Cidhna mine. Besides an Empire supporting Jarl was already doing it anyways.

The Forsworn only became the Forsworn after the Markarth Incident to which they were slaughtered and killed by Ulfric Stormcloak. The people of the Reach have been there long before the Nords, they are the natives of the Reach.

The Empire supporting Jarl was not enslaving them, people were thrown in jail but the Silver-Bloods own the mine. The Empire was trying to take the mine from them. Which is why the Silver-Bloods had an Imperial Agent assassinated using the Forsworn as assassins.

Jarl Igmund's approach to the Forsworn was one of caution, the Silver-Bloods approach is one of chains and slavery, forcing them all into the mines. I am amazed you support that, you and all the Stormcloaks who cry victim of oppression but turn a blind eye to slavery that which the Empire banned for over an Era.

It makes me begin to question this so called Stormcloak rebellion, looking at all the supporters, it's like the Stormcloaks are rebelling against everything Imperial. From not slaying giants that haven't threatened the local population, to slavery and oppression.

Killing peaceful creatures? Oh you mean Giants. When you get close to some of them they attack. Do you honestly believe that their all peaceful? In fact other holds hires you to slay giants, even Balgruuf does it.

Giants are peaceful creatures, they even have their own language.

Giants are generally peaceful creatures, so long as potential threats keep their distance... and leave their mammoths unharmed. - Loading Screen.

Yes they will attack if you get close to them, they feel threatened. They give you warnings though, waving their club in the air to ward you off. I would kill something if it was up in my face after I told it to stay back, fearing for my survival. Giants have good reason to be fearful of humans. Cause Nords keep slaying them.

Other holds do hire you to kill a giant, but there is a difference to a bounty that has a giant that has killed people. To what Skald asks you to do.

"Giants are a common problem in the Pale. The Empire always demanded I leave them be, but the Empire isn't here now. Go and slay one of the beasts. It should let them know that Dawnstar is not to be trifled with."

"You've shown those monsters that they will no longer be tolerated in the Pale. Good work. Here, a reward from your Jarl."

The Winterhold jarl teaches his son to hate elves while on the other hand jarl Siddgeir builds up a business relationship with the local bandits. He also pisses away government money on personal items like Mead.

Jarl Siddgeir, is quite smart, he managed to get bandits to pay taxes. Yes he did have dealings with a bunch of bandits in his hold, he ended that relationship. While he is not the most awe inspiring Jarl, at least he isn't planning on enslavement or racial segregation.

You're joking about the mead right? Cause I can't believe you would try use that as an argument against the Empire. ALL NORDS BUY MEAD. If you have a problem with the Nords, take that up with them, don't spin the fact that Nords love their mead against the Empire.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
You also have Jarl Siddgeir, while he is quite the idiot and not a very good Jarl, he's actually quite harmless.
No...just no. A Jarl that colludes with bandits to prey on his own people is not harmless. He's an amoral scumbag that deserves the pointy end of the sword.
 

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