Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
Diary of Faire Agarwen
Translated from Falmer Text by Calcelmo of Markarth
Forward [sic]
The dates noted in this diary are translated literally. This verbiage matches no known modern measure of time, and is assumed to be a custom form of counting the days and months. Excavations of ancient Falmer slave quarters have turned up brass vessels, very similar to a deep bowl, with twenty markings crudely etched onto the inside. Falmer scholars theorize that this bowl would be placed under a drip of water coming from an overhanging rock and as the bowl filled, the water's level would reach these markings, thus indicating a crude passage of time. Because of this diary, the vessel has been called a "kulniir," a primitive Falmer timekeeping device.
Third Marking, Tenth Kulniir
It feels like years since we were forced into hiding. I dare not write where we stay for fear of endangering the good people of this house should this diary be discovered. We have been shown a kindness by this family once known to the Snow Prince. Even in death his great influence has ensured our safety. We were separated from many of our kin along the road when it became increasingly difficult to travel discreetly in our numbers. We were forced to go our separate ways and travel only at night. I have heard no news of where the others may have gone and fear I never shall. Our lives are forever changed.
Seventh Marking, Tenth Kulniir
In the night I find it difficult not to focus on times past. There are moments in my rest when I still hear the laughter of Young Ones at play in the valley. Other times I see the pale flicker of happy moments which were once so common in the land of the Snow Elves. I try not to dwell on these memories too long. Often our surroundings make it impossible to dwell on any happiness. We have been locked together in such close quarters for so long we grow tired of each other's company. Even the strongest of us have faltered with nothing to do but think on what is lost. I wake each day to forlorn faces and am reminded of where we are and all we have left behind. We are all yearning for a day when we can emerge from hiding and walk freely in the light once more. But I fear we are losing all hope that such a day will ever come.
Tenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir
I tire of the tears of women and children. My own have run dry. The men have begun to look upon us as if we are all weak yet we have survived the same trials as they. I cannot bring myself to think on the numbers we lost in battle. Yet I cannot force the images of my own losses from my mind. And now in a time when our people should be banding together it feels we are drifting apart. TheNords have truly won. Our once great pride and unity are shattered. If we lose hope now we will never survive. Today many, myself included, have tried to speak out in voices of reason. There can be no hope without talk of our future. We can make no difference if our spirits remain broken.
Eighteenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir
We know that we can never again be the Snow Elves and live freely in this world. We will forever be in hiding in one form or another. But there is no reason we cannot live life with the sun and the wind against our skin. There are those here who are friends to us and plan to help us once the threat has ended. We know now to survive we must be born anew. Outside, we will appear as though we belong here. Inside, we will carry our truth and our scars.


Nothing in these diary entrees refers to the slaughter of children. This woman is writing about how the war has and is affecting her and her family, people. Nothing more. We can surely now put this myth to bed.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Third Marking, Tenth Kulniir
It feels like years since we were forced into hiding. I dare not write where we stay for fear of endangering the good people of this house should this diary be discovered. We have been shown a kindness by this family once known to the Snow Prince. Even in death his great influence has ensured our safety. We were separated from many of our kin along the road when it became increasingly difficult to travel discreetly in our numbers. We were forced to go our separate ways and travel only at night. I have heard no news of where the others may have gone and fear I never shall. Our lives are forever changed.

Tenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir
I tire of the tears ofwomen and children. My own have run dry.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
Third Marking, Tenth Kulniir
It feels like years since we were forced into hiding. I dare not write where we stay for fear of endangering the good people of this house should this diary be discovered. We have been shown a kindness by this family once known to the Snow Prince. Even in death his great influence has ensured our safety. We were separated from many of our kin along the road when it became increasingly difficult to travel discreetly in our numbers. We were forced to go our separate ways and travel only at night. I have heard no news of where the others may have gone and fear I never shall. Our lives are forever changed.

Tenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir
I tire of the tears ofwomen and children. My own have run dry.


This doesn't prove the slaughter of children or women, all it proves was that they were afraid and in dire straits from the war. Furthermore the fears the writer has of being found and killed could be unfounded. This is a single person's accounting of the conflict, and not the work of a historian who's recorded fact. I still find it highly unlikely that the same Nords who'd give the Snow Prince an honorable and elaborate burial out of respect and honor would just as easily mow down women and children.

In the end, history took the course it did. Good and bad have come out of it.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
This doesn't prove the slaughter of children or women, all it proves was that they were afraid and in dire straits from the war. Furthermore the fears the writer has of being found and killed could be unfounded. This is a single person's accounting of the conflict, and not the work of a historian who's recorded fact. I still find it highly unlikely that the same Nords who'd give the Snow Prince an honorable and elaborate burial out of respect and honor would just as easily mow down women and children.

In the end, history took the course it did. Good and bad have come out of it.

You confuse me. You're telling me a person's journal during the era isn't as credible as someone who wasn't born in the Era? Also, isn't it rather blind to assume that not a single falmer child or woman was wrongly slaughtered during this war?

My point is this. Just as not every snow elf can be immediately guilty of what happened at the Night of Tears, specifically Children. Not every nord can be free from saying that the snow elven women and children were left alone. That is unrealistic. If the war was that black and white, why would the snow elven people go to the dwarves for safety if the Nords as you claim wouldn't kill their children and women?
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Third Marking, Tenth Kulniir
It feels like years since we were forced into hiding. I dare not write where we stay for fear of endangering the good people of this house should this diary be discovered. We have been shown a kindness by this family once known to the Snow Prince. Even in death his great influence has ensured our safety. We were separated from many of our kin along the road when it became increasingly difficult to travel discreetly in our numbers. We were forced to go our separate ways and travel only at night. I have heard no news of where the others may have gone and fear I never shall. Our lives are forever changed.

Tenth Marking, Tenth Kulniir
I tire of the tears ofwomen and children. My own have run dry.


This doesn't prove the slaughter of children or women, all it proves was that they were afraid and in dire straits from the war. Furthermore the fears the writer has of being found and killed could be unfounded. This is a single person's accounting of the conflict, and not the work of a historian who's recorded fact. I still find it highly unlikely that the same Nords who'd give the Snow Prince an honorable and elaborate burial out of respect and honor would just as easily mow down women and children.

In the end, history took the course it did. Good and bad have come out of it.
If you take that stance, you're also discounting much of the already established sources of lore found throughout Skyrim and The Elder Scrolls... or at least I think you are.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
This doesn't prove the slaughter of children or women, all it proves was that they were afraid and in dire straits from the war. Furthermore the fears the writer has of being found and killed could be unfounded. This is a single person's accounting of the conflict, and not the work of a historian who's recorded fact. I still find it highly unlikely that the same Nords who'd give the Snow Prince an honorable and elaborate burial out of respect and honor would just as easily mow down women and children.

In the end, history took the course it did. Good and bad have come out of it.

You confuse me. You're telling me a person's journal during the era isn't as credible as someone who wasn't born in the Era? Also, isn't it rather blind to assume that not a single falmer child or woman was wrongly slaughtered during this war?

My point is this. Just as not every snow elf can be immediately guilty of what happened at the Night of Tears, specifically Children. Not every nord can be free from saying that the snow elven women and children were left alone. That is unrealistic. If the war was that black and white, why would the snow elven people go to the dwarves for safety if the Nords as you claim wouldn't kill their children and women?
You're grasping at straws now and floundering. Irrefutable proof cannot be found for a reason, deal with with it. Children were no doubt affected by the Nords indirectly, by having their parents slain, perhaps even right in front of them, nothing unrealistic about that. To suggest however, that those same swords were then turned on innocent children for pleasure, is unrealistic in my view, given what we know about Nord honour and respect for prowess. Drunken Mage first raised this point in an earlier post and to be honest I wish I'd thought of it. Forget assumptions and speculation altogether for a moment, you were asked to provide proof of your accusations of Nords murdering children and the best you could come up with is a short document with absolutely nothing in it to back up those claims. You may have any opinion you like but the lore doesn't back you up and seeing as we are trying to stick to the facts, I've got one for you, you're losing this argument, if it isn't already lost. ;)
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
This doesn't prove the slaughter of children or women, all it proves was that they were afraid and in dire straits from the war. Furthermore the fears the writer has of being found and killed could be unfounded. This is a single person's accounting of the conflict, and not the work of a historian who's recorded fact. I still find it highly unlikely that the same Nords who'd give the Snow Prince an honorable and elaborate burial out of respect and honor would just as easily mow down women and children.

In the end, history took the course it did. Good and bad have come out of it.

You confuse me. You're telling me a person's journal during the era isn't as credible as someone who wasn't born in the Era? Also, isn't it rather blind to assume that not a single falmer child or woman was wrongly slaughtered during this war?

My point is this. Just as not every snow elf can be immediately guilty of what happened at the Night of Tears, specifically Children. Not every nord can be free from saying that the snow elven women and children were left alone. That is unrealistic. If the war was that black and white, why would the snow elven people go to the dwarves for safety if the Nords as you claim wouldn't kill their children and women?
You're grasping at straws now and floundering. Irrefutable proof cannot be found for a reason, deal with with it. Children were no doubt affected by the Nords indirectly, by having their parents slain, perhaps even right in front of them, nothing unrealistic about that. To suggest however, that those same swords were then turned on innocent children for pleasure, is unrealistic in my view, given what we know about Nord honour and respect for prowess. Drunken Mage first raised this point in an earlier post and to be honest I wish I'd thought of it. Forget assumptions and speculation altogether for a moment, you were asked to provide proof of your accusations of Nords murdering children and the best you could come up with is a short document with absolutely nothing in it to back up those claims. You may have any opinion you like but the lore doesn't back you up and seeing as we are trying to stick to the facts, I've got one for you, you're losing this argument, if it isn't already lost. ;)
First of all, I fail to see how the comment I made was ranting. I was merely expressing an opinion, and not even very strongly at that.
Secondly, Irrefutable proof cannot be found because Bethesda does not want the game to be Black and White. If it could be found, there would be an obvious reason to call Ysgramor and his predecessors monsters.
Thirdly, I admit that it is speculation. But most every conclusion we come to in a Scrolls game is speculation, as that is the nature of a Scrolls game. Freedom to the player, allowing us to shape our opinions and beliefs into facts in each of our own worlds. However, things are left so open that topics in threads like this one are debateale, cause strong opinions to be expressed, and even evoke emotion in some cases. You have come to your opinion, your conclusion, and I respect that. Now I ask you to respect mine.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
You're grasping at straws now and floundering. Irrefutable proof cannot be found for a reason, deal with with it. Children were no doubt affected by the Nords indirectly, by having their parents slain, perhaps even right in front of them, nothing unrealistic about that. To suggest however, that those same swords were then turned on innocent children for pleasure, is unrealistic in my view, given what we know about Nord honour and respect for prowess.

There is nothing unrealistic about Nordic people who kill for pleasure. Two perfect examples being Astrid and her husband to start with. As well as Aela killing to avenge Skor and killing so many along side the Dragonborn, that the Silver hand somehow break into Whiterun and slaughter the Harbinger of the companions which leads to further death and revenge. That wasn't honorable killing, and you know it.

Drunken Mage first raised this point in an earlier post and to be honest I wish I'd thought of it. Forget assumptions and speculation altogether for a moment, you were asked to provide proof of your accusations of Nords murdering children and the best you could come up with is a short document with absolutely nothing in it to back up those claims.
Incorrect. The diary shows more than enough to support the assumption I've made while you have not shown any real evidence to state that Nords would not kill children.

Race does NOT play into wether a person is capable of slaughtering a child. Nords, Dunmer, Argonian, Altmer, Falmer, Breton, Imperial, Redguard, Khajiit. Every single one is capable of slaughtering children. What they are has nothing to do with who they are and what they become.

You may have any opinion you like but the lore doesn't back you up and seeing as we are trying to stick to the facts, I've got one for you, you're losing this argument, if it isn't already lost. ;)

I'll post this again. Incorrect. The diary shows more than enough to support the assumption I've made while you have not shown any real evidence to state the assumption that Nords would not kill children.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
You're grasping at straws now and floundering. Irrefutable proof cannot be found for a reason, deal with with it. Children were no doubt affected by the Nords indirectly, by having their parents slain, perhaps even right in front of them, nothing unrealistic about that. To suggest however, that those same swords were then turned on innocent children for pleasure, is unrealistic in my view, given what we know about Nord honour and respect for prowess.

There is nothing unrealistic about Nordic people who kill for pleasure. Two perfect examples being Astrid and her husband to start with. As well as Aela killing to avenge Skor and killing so many along side the Dragonborn, that the Silver hand somehow break into Whiterun and slaughter the Harbinger of the companions which leads to further death and revenge. That wasn't honorable killing, and you know it.

Drunken Mage first raised this point in an earlier post and to be honest I wish I'd thought of it. Forget assumptions and speculation altogether for a moment, you were asked to provide proof of your accusations of Nords murdering children and the best you could come up with is a short document with absolutely nothing in it to back up those claims.
Incorrect. The diary shows more than enough to support the assumption I've made while you have not shown any real evidence to state that Nords would not kill children.

Race does NOT play into wether a person is capable of slaughtering a child. Nords, Dunmer, Argonian, Altmer, Falmer, Breton, Imperial, Redguard, Khajiit. Every single one is capable of slaughtering children. What they are has nothing to do with who they are and what they become.

You may have any opinion you like but the lore doesn't back you up and seeing as we are trying to stick to the facts, I've got one for you, you're losing this argument, if it isn't already lost. ;)

I'll post this again. Incorrect. The diary shows more than enough to support the assumption I've made while you have not shown any real evidence to state the assumption that Nords would not kill children.
The argument was never, whether or not Nords kill for pleasure, everybody knows this to be true. So these state the obvious examples you've given do nothing other than support my theory that you'll do anything to change the original subject we've been discussing and that was whether Nords systematically murdered children as the Snow Elves did at Sarthaal. You keep claiming you've presented proof, when in fact you haven't. The diary shows more than enough evidence of your claim does it? Nowhere in the diary does it mention the murder of children, anyone who can read must surely agree with me. Lastly, I don't need to prove anything. My stand is the same as Drunken Mages in that I find it unlikely, but I'll accept any rock solid evidence to the contrary. You however, made a statement that I questioned you on asked you to prove. I say again, you're meagre efforts have yet again proven unsuccessful and you're total unwillingness to admit I've rendered your argument invalid stands a testament to your character. :D
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
First of all I recommend everyone relax, this is an internet forum and I don't see any reason for you guys are going at each other like this. There's no point in getting so worked up and dolling out bad manners and ranting ratings.

You confuse me. You're telling me a person's journal during the era isn't as credible as someone who wasn't born in the Era?
Yes and no, while a journal could be a credible source the fact is that the content is subject to the writer's own feelings and opinions. The diary in question goes on to describe what life was like following the Snow Prince's death, but it doesn't entail whether or not the Nords actively hunted civilians. It says that they were fearful, and understandably so. Though whether or not these fears were founded in the slaughter of civilians, or if it was simply the Elves concerns of being discovered and not knowing what fate awaited them, is not known.
Also, isn't it rather blind to assume that not a single falmer child or woman was wrongly slaughtered during this war?

Absolutely, no matter your intentions in war people will suffer.
My point is this. Just as not every snow elf can be immediately guilty of what happened at the Night of Tears, specifically Children. Not every nord can be free from saying that the snow elven women and children were left alone. That is unrealistic. If the war was that black and white, why would the snow elven people go to the dwarves for safety if the Nords as you claim wouldn't kill their children and women?


The fact is we don't know for sure, what's known is that the Snow Elves military launched an attack with the sole intention of destroying an entire population. There goal was clear, to wipe out humanity and its influence in Skyrim. Ysgramor survived, and came back with the intention of taking Skyrim for the Nords. He defeated their military, and sent the remaining population fleeing. That's about it, there isn't any mention of mass slaughter. While different, individual cases of children or women being cut down may have existed, there's nothing to support the notion that Ysgramor and his army were out to slaughter any they encountered following the defeat of the Snow Prince.

History took the course it did, the Falmer army attacked human settlements, and the Nord armies returned to defeat them.
 

UnfaithfulServant

Silence, my brother...
I disagree with him slaughtering a race, but I have to say both. >.<
 

original_funk

Iron is coming
History took the course it did, the Falmer army attacked human settlements, and the Nord armies returned to defeat them.


And I think that the fact that Ysgramor won the war makes him a hero.

And if he was a murderous savage, why would his original settlement be peaceful?

Until someone can come up with some in-game proof that Ysgramor went too far and tried to kill off not just the snow elves but all other elves including their children, then he remains one of Tamriel's greatest heroes, rivalling even Tiber Septim
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
(I'll just refer to the Nedes as Nords to save confusion.)

While Nords value honor and tradition, it doesn't mean they can't or wouldn't kill women and children. In Nordic culture women and men fight side by side, children learn to fight at early ages. To them it wouldn't be slaughter but killing an enemy.

By these standards I would be a murderous savage for killing female bandits or Stormcloaks.

Ulfric had women and children executed, didn't taint his honor to other Nords. It is sometimes remembered as a great battle, Ulfric was a hero to many Nords and the Jarls.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

Now the Snow Elves were driven from Skyrim, there wouldn't be many distinctions between killing the Elven enemy and innocents since it was a war of the Nords. Evgir Unslaad as what the Ancient Nords would of called it.

The Nord Chieftains wanted to cleanse the lands of the "Elven Horde" But what the game does present is that there is no mention of women and children being killed, the snow elves had fled underground when they had no more warriors.

So while it can be opinion, personal belief or simple gut feeling. There just isn't much records during those times, however we do know it lasted until the reign of High King Harald, 13th in line of Ysgramor. So the question would be is Ysgramor the murderous savage or were his heirs.

Though an interesting bit of irony, Ysgramor's blood line ended when King Borgas was killed in the Wild Hunt by the Bosmer.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
That's the point I was trying to express. Though in hindsight, I did a rather crap job of it. Thanks Drunken.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition said: It may be that the exploits of the near-mythical Ysgramor conflate the reigns of several early Nord Kings, as the Elves were not finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim until the reign of King Harald, the thirteenth of Ysgramor's line, at the dawn of recorded history. King Harald is also remembered for being the first King to relinquish all holdings in Atmora; the Nords of Skyrim were now a separate people, whose faces were turned firmly toward their destiny, the conquest of the vast new land of Tamriel. Indeed, the history of the Nords is the history of humans in Tamriel; all the human races, with the exception of the Redguards, are descended from Nordic stock, although in some the ancient blood admittedly runs thin.
Whilst Ysgramor's actions have indeed become the stuff of legend, for good and bad reasons alike, I cannot help but wonder what may have happened had the Elves not betrayed mankind. We might very well have another race like the Bretons, descended from Nord and Snow Elven blood. Would the animosity between the races of men and mer that we see nowadays have even existed at all? No Great War? Sarthaal was indeed a tragedy, for more than just the Atmorans who perished that night. It was a tragedy for Tamriel as a country.
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition said: It may be that the exploits of the near-mythical Ysgramor conflate the reigns of several early Nord Kings, as the Elves were not finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim until the reign of King Harald, the thirteenth of Ysgramor's line, at the dawn of recorded history. King Harald is also remembered for being the first King to relinquish all holdings in Atmora; the Nords of Skyrim were now a separate people, whose faces were turned firmly toward their destiny, the conquest of the vast new land of Tamriel. Indeed, the history of the Nords is the history of humans in Tamriel; all the human races, with the exception of the Redguards, are descended from Nordic stock, although in some the ancient blood admittedly runs thin.
Whilst Ysgramor's actions have indeed become the stuff of legend, for good and bad reasons alike, I cannot help but wonder what may have happened had the Elves not betrayed mankind. We might very well have another race like the Bretons, descended from Nord and Snow Elven blood. Would the animosity between the races of men and mer that we see nowadays have even existed at all? No Great War? Sarthaal was indeed a tragedy, for more than just the Atmorans who perished that night. It was a tragedy for Tamriel as a country.
Completely unrelated and you may already know this but Tamriel is a continent and Blackmarsh, Elsweyr, Cyrodiil, etc... are the provinces (or countries).
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
Kenny Lewter said: Completely unrelated and you may already know this but Tamriel is a continent and Blackmarsh, Elsweyr, Cyrodiil, etc... are the provinces (or countries).

Thanks for the geography lesson, now let me give you one on grammar.

Kenny Lewter said: If it was a small faction than the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. It would have to be all or none. I mean think about it, why would a whole race take the fall for what a small faction did?

You should have written: If it was a small faction, then the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. Just since we're randomly correcting each other on totally unrelated things, like you mentioned. :rolleyes:
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
Kenny Lewter said: Completely unrelated and you may already know this but Tamriel is a continent and Blackmarsh, Elsweyr, Cyrodiil, etc... are the provinces (or countries).

Thanks for the geography lesson, now let me give you one on grammar.

Kenny Lewter said: If it was a small faction than the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. It would have to be all or none. I mean think about it, why would a whole race take the fall for what a small faction did?

You should have written: If it was a small faction, then the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. Just since we're randomly correcting each other on totally unrelated things, like you mentioned. :rolleyes:
Fair enough, fair enough.
 

Thorn

In the Hist we trust
I may be the only one...but I could see a conspiracy perhaps regarding the Night of Tears and Saarthal. It certainly gave the Nords or rather the Nedes the pretext to wage a full war of conquest against the Snow Elves.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
I may be the only one...but I could see a conspiracy perhaps regarding the Night of Tears and Saarthal. It certainly gave the Nords or rather the Nedes the pretext to wage a full war of conquest against the Snow Elves.
Highly, doubtful. Are you suggesting, the Atmorans arranged the systematic murder of thousands of their innocent people, just to give themselves justification to wage war on the Snow Elves?
images-6.jpeg
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top