Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

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Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
Actually the Snow Elves attacked because the Atmorans were hoarding the Eye of Magnus a powerful artifact that can wipe out whole realms.
Please prove that they were hoarding they eye. Because they we not
The Snow Elves were known to be a peaceful, proud race. The Atmorans however, are known to be stubborn and brutish. And call it what you want but the Atmorans were dealing with a force that they couldn't handle. They could barely use magic (except for shouting, which may have come later). The Snow Elves would not destroy a whole city unless they believed it was a necessity.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Actually the Snow Elves attacked because the Atmorans were hoarding the Eye of Magnus a powerful artifact that can wipe out whole realms.
Please prove that they were hoarding they eye. Because they we not
The Snow Elves were known to be a peaceful, proud race. The Atmorans however, are known to be stubborn and brutish. And call it what you want but the Atmorans were dealing with a force that they couldn't handle. They could barely use magic (except for shouting, which may have come later). The Snow Elves would not destroy a whole city unless they believed it was a necessity.
But a small faction might.
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
Please prove that they were hoarding they eye. Because they we not
The Snow Elves were known to be a peaceful, proud race. The Atmorans however, are known to be stubborn and brutish. And call it what you want but the Atmorans were dealing with a force that they couldn't handle. They could barely use magic (except for shouting, which may have come later). The Snow Elves would not destroy a whole city unless they believed it was a necessity.
But a small faction might.
If it was a small faction than the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. It would have to be all or none. I mean think about it, why would a whole race take the fall for what a small faction did?
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
The Snow Elves were known to be a peaceful, proud race. The Atmorans however, are known to be stubborn and brutish. And call it what you want but the Atmorans were dealing with a force that they couldn't handle. They could barely use magic (except for shouting, which may have come later). The Snow Elves would not destroy a whole city unless they believed it was a necessity.
But a small faction might.
If it was a small faction than the whole Snow Elven race wouldn't be destroyed. It would have to be all or none. I mean think about it, why would a whole race take the fall for what a small faction did?
Why would a race of proud, battle loving brutes distinguish one from the other? In their own culture, they are hailed as heroes. It is what they are used to, what they are raised on. The first trip might have been peaceful, but Saarthal stuck a stick into a beehive. Now this race of individuals who live for combat suddenly has a reason to go to war, make a name for themselves, and claim new lands indisputably. I am not justifying his methods, what happened has already happened, and his own culture heroized him for it. Some cultures, combat is a useful tool. For them, it was a way of life.

That is what I believe.
 

original_funk

Iron is coming
He's an absolute hero! What the elf lovers like to forget or try to justify is that the elves started the war with the night of tears. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Just allow this treachery and slaughter go unanswered?
He did not commit any murder. It was war. A war the elves started, because they craved the power of the eye of Magnus.
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
He's an absolute hero! What the elf lovers like to forget or try to justify is that the elves started the war with the night of tears. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Just allow this treachery and slaughter go unanswered?
He did not commit any murder. It was war. A war the elves started, because they craved the power of the eye of Magnus.
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
He's an absolute hero! What the elf lovers like to forget or try to justify is that the elves started the war with the night of tears. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Just allow this treachery and slaughter go unanswered?
He did not commit any murder. It was war. A war the elves started, because they craved the power of the eye of Magnus.
It is an indisputable fact that what he and his warriors committed was not just an act of war, but an act of genocide. Maybe at first it was simply war, but at some point it definitely crossed a line. He was, however, justified in doing so by his own culture it seems. As evident with the fact that he and his ancestors have been heroized by it, and the Harbinger of the Companions is so well respected by nearly everyone.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
He's an absolute hero! What the elf lovers like to forget or try to justify is that the elves started the war with the night of tears. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Just allow this treachery and slaughter go unanswered?
He did not commit any murder. It was war. A war the elves started, because they craved the power of the eye of Magnus.
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?
That was a different matter entirely. We weren't a people who's culture revolved around combat and bloodshed. If we had been, I'm sure there would've been genocide against Germany.
 

original_funk

Iron is coming
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?


The Germans yielded when their leader was killed and Russian troops marched into Berlin. If the Snow elves yeilded to the Nords, then there would be peace. Instead the elves looked to the dwemer for help, and it was THEM who wiped out their race, not the Nords.

And it was either the elves or the nords. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Stay in Atmora and wait for the cold to wipe out his people? No, he only had one choice, and that was to fight.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?


The Germans yielded when their leader was killed and Russian troops marched into Berlin. If the Snow elves yeilded to the Nords, then there would be peace. Instead the elves looked to the dwemer for help, and it was THEM who wiped out their race, not the Nords.

And it was either the elves or the nords. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Stay in Atmora and wait for the cold to wipe out his people? No, he only had one choice, and that was to fight.
The snow elves did yield. They retreated and ran to the dwarves for help, or at least most of them did. I am about to destroy my computer because of all these 503 warnings.
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?


The Germans yielded when their leader was killed and Russian troops marched into Berlin. If the Snow elves yeilded to the Nords, then there would be peace. Instead the elves looked to the dwemer for help, and it was THEM who wiped out their race, not the Nords.

And it was either the elves or the nords. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Stay in Atmora and wait for the cold to wipe out his people? No, he only had one choice, and that was to fight.
The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer that killed of the Snow Elves, if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
So that was a viable excuse for wiping out an entire race? Should we have killed off all the Germans for WW2?


The Germans yielded when their leader was killed and Russian troops marched into Berlin. If the Snow elves yeilded to the Nords, then there would be peace. Instead the elves looked to the dwemer for help, and it was THEM who wiped out their race, not the Nords.

And it was either the elves or the nords. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Stay in Atmora and wait for the cold to wipe out his people? No, he only had one choice, and that was to fight.
The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.
And from what I understand the Atmorans were still on them even as they were running to the dwarves and surrendering, and killing the ones who did not take the dwarves' deal.
 

Majir-Dar

Confused Khajiit
The Germans yielded when their leader was killed and Russian troops marched into Berlin. If the Snow elves yeilded to the Nords, then there would be peace. Instead the elves looked to the dwemer for help, and it was THEM who wiped out their race, not the Nords.

And it was either the elves or the nords. What was Ysgramor supposed to do? Stay in Atmora and wait for the cold to wipe out his people? No, he only had one choice, and that was to fight.
The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.
And from what I understand the Atmorans were still on them even as they were running to the dwarves and surrendering, and killing the ones who did not take the dwarves' deal.
With their savior defeated, the spirit of the remaining Elven warriors soon shattered. Many fled, and those that remained on the battlefield were soon cut down by our broad Nord axes.
-Fall of the Snow Prince
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
Can someone explain exactly what the Atmorans believed about combat at the time? Because I'm not sure if my posts have been wholly factual about their love of combat and all. But still, Ysgramor's own culture more or less idolized him.
 

original_funk

Iron is coming
The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer that killed of the Snow Elves, if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.


And instead of helping the snow elves, they enslaved and poisoned them and turned them into the monsters they are now. That's pretty low, lower than meeting them on the battlefield, which is what Ysgramor did.
And I guess the Atmorans did not trust the snow elves at all. In the case of world war II, we realised that it was because the Nazis had taken hold of the government and the blame could not be attributed to just being German.
In the case of the snow elves, it was because their very existence was a threat to the Atmorans. I don't think they knew it was about the Eye of Magnus, they just knew that the snow elves could not be trusted. Not one of them. Therefore not one could be left to live in Skyrim.
Ysgramor did what had to be done to ensure the survival of humanity, or at least what he believed needed to be done. Not out of greed or bloodlust (well, maybe a little bloodlust, because every Nord loves battle) but mainly out of survival.
Therefore he's a true Nordic hero.
 

Lunaruse

The Milkdrinking Elf
The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer that killed of the Snow Elves, if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.


And instead of helping the snow elves, they enslaved and poisoned them and turned them into the monsters they are now. That's pretty low, lower than meeting them on the battlefield, which is what Ysgramor did.
And I guess the Atmorans did not trust the snow elves at all. In the case of world war II, we realised that it was because the Nazis had taken hold of the government and the blame could not be attributed to just being German.
In the case of the snow elves, it was because their very existence was a threat to the Atmorans. I don't think they knew it was about the Eye of Magnus, they just knew that the snow elves could not be trusted. Not one of them. Therefore not one could be left to live in Skyrim.
Ysgramor did what had to be done to ensure the survival of humanity, or at least what he believed needed to be done. Not out of greed or bloodlust (well, maybe a little bloodlust, because every Nord loves battle) but mainly out of survival.
Therefore he's a true Nordic hero.
So is humanity to the Thalmor. Does that truly justify mass slaughter?
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
I'm not sure why I took the stance that I did earlier in this thread.

The Falmer did what they did, and Ysgramor came back and ripped them a new one for it. There's no mention of killing children or innocent people, and as stated by Mage much earlier in the thread it'd be unlikely for Nords who value honor to carry out such crimes. Even though at times throughout history, Nordic warriors have done things that makes one question the definition of honor. Examples being the Markarth Incident, Skyrim's history of war and conquest, etc.

This being said, between the time of Ysgramor's return and King Harald's reign Humanity had claimed Skyrim. They had the forces to conquer the land and take it from the Elves, and seeing as how any deliberate killing of Mer children or women simply can't be proven I'm going to have to say that all's fair in love and war. It may not be ethical or right, but land doesn't belong to anyone other than the person who's strong enough to take and hold it.
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
The Night of Tears only occurred because the Atmorans were hoarding power that they shouldn't even know existed.


There's nothing in the lore that directly indicates that the Atmoran settlers were deliberately hoarding the Eye of Magnus from the Elves, judging by how it continued to sit in Saarthal for thousands of years and was seemingly lost to history I'm going to guess that it really wasn't a priority for the Nords to reclaim it. That's just my speculation, but moving on from that it really isn't clear why the Night of Tears happened and there are quite a few theories floating around.
 

High King of Skyrim

King of the barbarian horde
With their savior defeated, the spirit of the remaining Elven warriors soon shattered. Many fled, and those that remained on the battlefield were soon cut down by our broad Nord axes.
-Fall of the Snow Prince


This is in no way proof of a Snow Elven surrender, merely the outcome of the battle of the Moestring.


The Elves lost when their Snow Prince had fallen. Everyone knew this. No more fighting had to be had. And don't try to tell me it was the Dwemer that killed of the Snow Elves, if the Atmorans didn't kill off over 50% of their species to begin with, they wouldn't have had to go to the Dwemer at all.



Not everyone, not the Nords. They should of officially surrendered as the Japanese did after Hiroshima and Nagasaki but I cannot find any lore to state this ever happened. Doesn't surprise me then that the Nords kept pushing the filthy eleven heathens whilst they had momentum, as any good soldiers would do. 50% of the species killed by Nords? Trying to cite lore then just simply mixing it with rubbish like this only serves to prove you're on shaky ground in my eyes and you're now grasping at straws but hey, at least you've amused me! Lastly, I will tell you the Dwemer killed off the remaining Snow Elves because 'lore' states that they did. Well technically, they just tricked them into eating a fungus that would of made the Snow Elves wish they were dead and the ones who didn't die from this fungus transformed into the Falmer as we know them. The Nords faced them in open battle and even gave their fallen leader a proper burial to recognise his heroism and ferocity, still you claim it's the Nords who are most at fault. The Snow Elves got what was coming to them on the battlefield, what happened underground was no more the Nord's fault as yours or mine.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
I'm not sure why I took the stance that I did earlier in this thread.

The Falmer did what they did, and Ysgramor came back and ripped them a new one for it. There's no mention of killing children or innocent people, and as stated by Mage much earlier in the thread it'd be unlikely for Nords who value honor to carry out such crimes. Even though at times throughout history, Nordic warriors have done things that makes one question the definition of honor. Examples being the Markarth Incident, Skyrim's history of war and conquest, etc.

This being said, between the time of Ysgramor's return and King Harald's reign Humanity had claimed Skyrim. They had the forces to conquer the land and take it from the Elves, and seeing as how any deliberate killing of Mer children or women simply can't be proven I'm going to have to say that all's fair in love and war. It may not be ethical or right, but land doesn't belong to anyone other than the person who's strong enough to take and hold it.

Please read the Diary of Faire Agarwen on the topic of Atmorans killing children and women. It's pretty clear they feared for their children's lives.
 

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