A question about Ulfric and the Thalmor

Lunaruse · Jun 5, 2013

So in Ulfric's Doccier it says:
"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

What exactly does this mean? Did he consciously betray his people to avoid being tortured again?

Gearuvagen · Jun 5, 2013

So it would seem. He also sold out the Empire during his torture, and the Thalmor were trying to figure out a way to save him at Helgen.

While I personally don't think he is consciously aiding the Thalmor, I do believe he is inadvertently aiding their grand design.

Dagmar · Jun 5, 2013

No. An asset is simply a term in espionage for a person that can be used as resource with or without their knowledge that they are being used. The only time Ulfric ever knowingly assisted the Thalmor was during the Great War when he was captured and interrogated by Elenwen (presumably under torture). The information actually was not helpful for the Thalmor but they made him believe otherwise. The reference to the Markarth Incident is a reference to the fact that his open violation of the White-Gold Concordat gave the Thalmor leverage to send their Justiciars into Skyrim to ensure compliance with its terms.

DrunkenMage · Jun 6, 2013

After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.

Although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact

Wouldn't that mean knowledge of who they were. Since contact was established after his escape and then after the Markarth Incident, he's uncooperative to direct contact. That would suggest he knew they were the Thalmor. If they were doing it without his knowledge, why would he suddenly become uncooperative to direct contact after the Thalmor made the Empire arrest him.

Joker · Jun 6, 2013

DrunkenMage said:
After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.

Although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact

Wouldn't that mean knowledge of who they were. Since contact was established after his escape and then after the Markarth Incident, he's uncooperative to direct contact. That would suggest he knew they were the Thalmor. If they were doing it without his knowledge, why would he suddenly become uncooperative to direct contact after the Thalmor made the Empire arrest him.

Maybe he felt abandoned, and became uncooperative when he realized that the Thalmor were behind his capture, arrest and attempted beheading.....?

DrunkenMage · Jun 6, 2013

Joker said:
Maybe he felt abandoned, and became uncooperative when he realized that the Thalmor were behind his capture, arrest and attempted beheading.....?

They weren't behind his execution, they were actually trying to save him from it. Ulfric is an asset to them, the Thalmor aid him and his Stormcloaks, providing them with indirect aid to continue the war against the Legion.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.

Joker · Jun 6, 2013

I am confused with your position. You say this

DrunkenMage said:
After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.

Although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact

Wouldn't that mean knowledge of who they were. Since contact was established after his escape and then after the Markarth Incident, he's uncooperative to direct contact. That would suggest he knew they were the Thalmor. If they were doing it without his knowledge, why would he suddenly become uncooperative to direct contact after the Thalmor made the Empire arrest him.

Wouldn't the Thalmor know that the Empire would execute Ulfric once they captured him, for crimes against the Empire?

Then you seemingly contradict yourself with this:

They weren't behind his execution, they were actually trying to save him from it. Ulfric is an asset to them, the Thalmor aid him and his Stormcloaks, providing them with indirect aid to continue the war against the Legion.

How were they trying to save Ulfric, by summoning the Dragon? Because there are Thalmor there watching you ride in with Ulfric, as you are riding to your execution.....

DrunkenMage · Jun 6, 2013

Joker said:
I am confused with your position. You say this

Wouldn't the Thalmor know that the Empire would execute Ulfric once they captured him, for crimes against the Empire?

Then you seemingly contradict yourself with this:

How were they trying to save Ulfric, by summoning the Dragon? Because there are Thalmor there watching you ride in with Ulfric, as you are riding to your execution.....

Demanding his arrest in Markarth, allowed them a greater position in Skyrim. They don't want Ulfric to die, they want him to continue fighting, they take it in steps. The Markarth Incident was the stepping stone, the rebellion is what they wanted. They admit to trying to keep Ulfric alive, it's mentioned in the Dossier.

They are there talking to Tullius when you ride in, no doubt trying to figure a way to stop it. They didn't summon a dragon.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

Dagmar · Jun 6, 2013

DrunkenMage said:
After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.

Although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact

Wouldn't that mean knowledge of who they were. Since contact was established after his escape and then after the Markarth Incident, he's uncooperative to direct contact. That would suggest he knew they were the Thalmor. If they were doing it without his knowledge, why would he suddenly become uncooperative to direct contact after the Thalmor made the Empire arrest him.

No. During the Cold War, the KGB, CIA and MI6 consistently manipulated assets without the assets' knowledge of who the agents were when they made contact with them. In some cases contact was made through other assets for added deniability. Don't forget that in the game itself the Thalmor have a Nord agent (Gissur) who you can overhear speaking with Rulindil and who attacks you later on in the game under order of the Thalmor. The fact that Ulfric is uncooperative to direct contact reflects an understandable increase in suspicion towards those not close to him due to the civil war.

DrunkenMage · Jun 6, 2013

Dagmar said:
No. During the Cold War, the KGB, CIA and MI6 consistently manipulated assets without the assets' knowledge of who the agents were when they made contact with them. In some cases contact was made through other assets for added deniability. Don't forget that in the game itself the Thalmor have a Nord agent (Gissur) who you can overhear speaking with Rulindil and who attacks you later on in the game under order of the Thalmor. The fact that Ulfric is uncooperative to direct contact reflects an understandable increase in suspicion towards those not close to him due to the civil war.

Shame they didn't do what they did with the Mythic Dawn agents hidden around Cyrodiil in Oblivion. Would of been more interesting had they done something like that, in a couple of Holds.

Assassin99 · Jun 6, 2013

Depends on how you look at it.
If you look at Ulfrics point of view, he could have thought it was right for his people.

Suleku · Jun 7, 2013

Gearuvagen said:
So it would seem. He also sold out the Empire during his torture, and the Thalmor were trying to figure out a way to save him at Helgen.

While I personally don't think he is consciously aiding the Thalmor, I do believe he is inadvertently aiding their grand design.

The empire sold everyone out when they gave up, and signed the treaty with the Thalmor... don't think I can call those milk drinkers true nords for doing some mess like that lmao! Empire looks soo weak in this game I'm a shamed that I aided them back when I was playing oblivion

Gearuvagen · Jun 7, 2013

Suleku said:
The empire sold everyone out when they gave up, and signed the treaty with the Thalmor... don't think I can call those milk drinkers true nords for doing some mess like that lmao! Empire looks soo weak in this game I'm a shamed that I aided them back when I was playing oblivion

They agreed to the WGC to end the suffering of the people and prepare for the second great war. All in all they lost Hammerfell, that's about it. The Talos ban wasn't wholly enforced in Skyrim until Ulfric pulled his BS in Markarth and we don't really know how fully it's enforced in Cyrodiil.
Also if you look at it, the Empire came out ahead, surprise attack and all, Titus Mede II destroyed the Aldmeri host at the Battle of the Red Ring, and a great number of Legionnaires remained in Hammerfell to aid them. How they are "Milk Drinkers"? You think Skyrim alone could take the AD?

Epic Keith · Jun 7, 2013

Does it matter? He's an asshole anyways. After readinf that dossier i converted to the imperial side

A question about Ulfric and the Thalmor

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