Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Bear of Markarth is Imperial propaganda? The author's second book must be Stormcloak propaganda, since it doesn't put the Empire in perfect light.

Raijin said:

Ulfric didn't murder and torture anyone. That's purely an Imperial propaganda ... which they seem to be good at spreading. It's the only thing that their good at these days.

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Thalmor isn't the Dominion, thus it isn't a contradiction. Thalmor are a Government body, the Dominion is a big army. Difference being a few Thalmor Agents and thousands of Aldmeri Soldiers. The Legion does speak the truth, "Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion."

Dagmar said:

He didn't torture the elderly, women and adolescents of Markarth that didn't support the Stormcloaks. He simply executed them. I guess executing non-combatants isn't murder in the version of the dictionary that you carry around. Poe-tay-toe, poe-tah-toe.

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If Ulfric truly did what the Bear of Markarth said he did then guess what? The Empire allowed it to happen. The Empire hired Ulfric and his militia to retake back Markarth from the natives because they couldn't stand the fact that the kingdom was actually quite peaceful without the Imperial influences: "That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power."

You know if you hire a hitman to kill your husband... and if you both get caught by law enforcements, you both will face a court, and if guilty base on the evidence you both will face life in prison.

If the Empire is going to cut off Ulfrics head for the incident in Markarth then they should also cut their own heads off for hiring him to do the job.

Now lets go on to what the Author wrote on his second book... "Madmen" of the Reach

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."


I find it hilarious that the Forsworn that this Author interviewed with didn't say 1 word about Ulfric and his Stormcloaks militia (Yes he did say Nords... but that doesn't mean anything) yet pointed directly to the Empire.

DrunkenMage said:

Bear of Markarth is Imperial propaganda? The author's second book must be Stormcloak propaganda, since it doesn't put the Empire in perfect light.

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I guess so (Says it in a sarcastic tone)

DrunkenMage said:

Thalmor isn't the Dominion, thus it isn't a contradiction. Thalmor are a Government body, the Dominion is a big army. Difference being a few Thalmor Agents and thousands of Aldmeri Soldiers. The Legion does speak the truth, "Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion."

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The Thalmor is the combined government of the second Aldmeri Dominion according to Ondolemar. The Thalmor are under the oath of the Dominion. So yeah the Dominion is in Skyrim.

Raijin said:

If Ulfric truly did what the Bear of Markarth said he did...

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It's canon regardless of whether you refuse to accept it as such.

Raijin said:

... then guess what? The Empire allowed it to happen. The Empire hired Ulfric and his militia to retake back Markarth from the natives

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The Empire did not hire Ulfric. The Forsworn and the Empire were negotiating terms for the official recognition of the Forsworn controlled Reach as an independent territory apart from Skyrim. A faction of Nords in Skyrim, including Igmund, hired Ulfric and his militia to retake the Reach. The rest of your post regarding the Markarth Incident is irrelevant as it's based on your total fabrication that the Empire hired Ulfric.

Raijin said:

...I find it hilarious that the Forsworn that this Author interviewed with didn't say 1 word about Ulfric and his Stormcloaks militia (Yes he did say Nords... but that doesn't mean anything) yet pointed directly to the Empire.

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I find it hilarious that you quote a completely irrelevant passage from a book in an incredibly feeble attempt to entertain your continued delusion that what's canon isn't true. The Reach is part of Skyrim. Skyrim is part of the Empire. There's nothing incongruous with asserting that one is going to retake territory from the Empire and that Ulfric slaughtered non combatants at Markarth so it categorically does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that it happened and that it is canon.

Raijin said:

I guess so (Says it in a sarcastic tone)



The Thalmor is the combined government of the second Aldmeri Dominion according to Ondolemar. The Thalmor are under the oath of the Dominion. So yeah the Dominion is in Skyrim.

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The Thalmor are the ruling body, they were a minor party for many years until they took control in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. Under the oath of the Dominion? They are under nothing, they rule through fear and ethnic cleansing. Keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim, means several things. Aldmeri Dominion control and their Military, if the Dominion were in Skyrim there would be hundreds dead, there wouldn't be Jarls, but Elven Lords and Dominion Soldiers. The Thalmor conduct great purges of Elves, if they're willing to kill themselves to maintain purity and racial superiority, they would do some unspeakable acts to the local Nord populations, such acts like what they did to the innocent population of the Imperial City during the great war. Members of their own 'Government' are afraid of each other. You mess up in the Thalmor you're sent back to Summerset Isles for punishment and 'reeducation' which makes me believe some form of brain washing or something very painful. They have such high opinions of themselves and disregard for any life, that is not something one would expect from every single member.

The Dominion has no major presence in Skyrim, not while the Empire still lives. The army sitting on their border makes sure of that. The Empire knows the love the Thalmor bring to the races of men, what they did in the Imperial City to those people is anyone's guess, but it was something bad since it was mentioned in a war in TES universe. In all the history in TES on wars and bloody horrors of battle, the things the Thalmor did in the Imperial City were bad enough to be noted on the time line and in the Great War book. If they were in Skyrim like what the Empire is suggesting they're keeping out, you would most certainly know it, if you think a small Thalmor Inquisition is bad? Imagine what they would do if no treaty held them back.

I much rather be on the side that isn't being given Thalmor aid, the Stormcloaks can go on and on about the Empire being puppets, but you're the ones who the Thalmor are aiding. Who do you think bankrolls this rebellion? The Empire controls Markarth, the source of Skyrim's wealth, they control Falkreath the source of timber. Windhelm is bankrupt, the city in disrepair, the once great capital of Skyrim, the city of Kings is falling apart, it's supplies and stockpiles are empty, Free-Winter mentions this when he becomes Jarl that Windhelm is in dire state from Ulfric's wise leadership, stockpiles are all gone. The Thalmor must be funding the Stormcloaks, because the Empire sure isn't. The Thalmor were also at the execution trying to save Ulfric from the chopping block. The Stormcloaks aren't even aware that the Thalmor are behind it, so easily manipulated like cattle.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

I have a hard time deciding with this issue. It is hard for me to put aside my character being a couple of seconds away from being executed for nothing. And yeah, Tullius did nothing about it, evidenced by his dialogue if you chose to side with the Imperials.

War, military, loose-ends, God will take care of it...blah blah blah.... Would you serve the Legion if a general and captain were to disregard the life of your own son/daughter and execute them on those grounds?

Reason before honor, sure, but there's always a line that cannot be crossed, and I've seen people go insane when those lines were crossed.

Edit: Despite this, I actually side with the Imperials when I do choose to finish the CWQ, but I don't feel happy about it.

I'm playing through the Stormcloaks side of the Civil War QL for the second attempt. Last time I got so bored I abandoned my character. This time I have a better backstory (thanks to Porchdrinker's character creation guide thingy) and so I like my character a lot more and him joining the Stormcloaks, although he himself is much more open to non-Nords than Ulfric, is fitting.

But I just don't like the Civil War QL very much. Although the Battle of Whiterun is one of the best designed quests of the game, on either side, I hate Whiterun being trashed. I hate city guards being replaced by soldiers (especially since I forgot to have Vroggi get a Falkreath guard shield to hang in Lakeview Manor). I hate that I have to be renamed Thane of Falkreath and Dungeir doesn't seem terribly grateful for the help in regaining his Jarlship. I hate all the reporting back to so-and-so. But I will try to finish it this time. I've finished the Imperial side once, so I ought to finish the Stormcloak side once, right?

I wish my character could just be an ordinary Nord fighting for his land instead of getting all this weird special treatment that's really not fitting to his personality. Seriously, I LOL'd when Ulfric said people were calling Vroggi "Bone-Breaker". Vroggi's not a "Bone-Breaker" kind of Stormcloak. He's very unhappy with the changes the Thalmor and Empire have brought to Skyrim but he doesn't lust for their shed blood. He is just doing what he feels is his duty and his goal is to survive the war so he and his swordbrother Erik can head back to Lakeview for some fishing and to stay up late drinking mead after Lucia and Sofie have gone to bed.

Hi all

Well I would like to ask why is everyone acusing stormcloaks of being racist all the time without seeing that other races are also racist, if not worse.
I would say that they are xenophobes, but part of that fear and misstrust is fueled by reality. Khajits are selling skoma. Dark elves arent fighting for stormcloaks. Argonians are shady characters, I know only 3 which arent, 2 of them being in Riften and the other one I saved from Falmer. Altmer want to dominate world and enslave men. And empire stabed them in the back. In order to preserve imperial city and his throne he gave up Skyrims culture, religion and sacrifices. The empire betrayed Redguards and left them to fare for themselves. It isnt a nice multicultural enviroment as we imagine with only racist Nords. Dunmer enslaved Argonians for centuries, Argonians commited genocide on Dunmer in souther Morrowind etc... The Nords/Stormcloaks are just like everyone else.

Mookie said:

Hi all

Well I would like to ask why is everyone acusing stormcloaks of being racist all the time without seeing that other races are also racist, if not worse.
I would say that they are xenophobes, but part of that fear and misstrust is fueled by reality. Khajits are selling skoma. Dark elves arent fighting for stormcloaks. Argonians are shady characters, I know only 3 which arent, 2 of them being in Riften and the other one I saved from Falmer. Altmer want to dominate world and enslave men. And empire stabed them in the back. In order to preserve imperial city and his throne he gave up Skyrims culture, religion and sacrifices. The empire betrayed Redguards and left them to fare for themselves. It isnt a nice multicultural enviroment as we imagine with only racist Nords. Dunmer enslaved Argonians for centuries, Argonians commited genocide on Dunmer in souther Morrowind etc... The Nords/Stormcloaks are just like everyone else.

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Finally someone who sees the flaws of the ofthr other races instead of following their own faction blindly

Mookie said:

Hi all

Well I would like to ask why is everyone acusing stormcloaks of being racist all the time without seeing that other races are also racist, if not worse.
I would say that they are xenophobes, but part of that fear and misstrust is fueled by reality. Khajits are selling skoma. Dark elves arent fighting for stormcloaks. Argonians are shady characters, I know only 3 which arent, 2 of them being in Riften and the other one I saved from Falmer. Altmer want to dominate world and enslave men. And empire stabed them in the back. In order to preserve imperial city and his throne he gave up Skyrims culture, religion and sacrifices. The empire betrayed Redguards and left them to fare for themselves. It isnt a nice multicultural enviroment as we imagine with only racist Nords. Dunmer enslaved Argonians for centuries, Argonians commited genocide on Dunmer in souther Morrowind etc... The Nords/Stormcloaks are just like everyone else.

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The point they're trying to make, is in comparison to the Empire. Sure, many of the races are racists (though, not all), but the Empire promotes diversity, which is why you'll find an Altmer and Dunmer Legate within their ranks.The Emperor didn't sell out Hammerfell or Skyrim due to racism, but out of supposed necessity. No doubt if this thread was about racism in the Elder Scrolls universe, you'd be seeing conversation that dealt with all races.

Pretty Vampires said:

The point they're trying to make, is in comparison to the Empire. Sure, many of the races are racists (though, not all), but the Empire promotes diversity, which is why you'll find an Altmer and Dunmer Legate within their ranks.The Emperor didn't sell out Hammerfell or Skyrim due to racism, but out of supposed necessity. No doubt if this thread was about racism in the Elder Scrolls universe, you'd be seeing conversation that dealt with all races.

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But we need to make a distinction. Empire is a global, or should we say continental govenrment/country. In order to exist with all those races it has to be as tolerant as possible. Simply because they want and need to rule over all those races and provinces. The stormcloaks on the other hand seek only Skyrim, they dont want to expand or to rule over someone else. So they can concentrate on their own race. After all Skyrim is home of the Nords.
But I still disagree that they are as racist as presented. Look at the high elf in Windhelm. She works, she pitches in and she has one of the biggest houses there, she is wealthy and all that. And no one is picking on her. And she is a HIGH ELF

She says it herself, dunmer in windhelm are in that position because they dont pitch in and dont ask for help.
And also they are all nice and all to that guy who becomes Jarl of windhelm if imperials win, but they are also racist as hell and involved in crimes.

Lets put ourselves to the Nords position for a moment.

Lets say NATO and USSR went to war and you are an american soldier fighting for NATO. The war is a phyric "victory" but USSR dictates all the terms and has its agents all over NATO teritory, US included. The treaty demands that worship of Jesus be forbiden in US teritory, that NKVD agents can take anyone and execute them. And all that goes over american backs. Where would you stand? Would you remain in NATO event if that is better long term or would you fight tooth and nail to get out of there?

Mookie said:

But we need to make a distinction. Empire is a global, or should we say continental govenrment/country. In order to exist with all those races it has to be as tolerant as possible. Simply because they want and need to rule over all those races and provinces. 1. The stormcloaks on the other hand seek only Skyrim, they dont want to expand or to rule over someone else. So they can concentrate on their own race. After all Skyrim is home of the Nords.
2. But I still disagree that they are as racist as presented. Look at the high elf in Windhelm. She works, she pitches in and she has one of the biggest houses there, she is wealthy and all that. And no one is picking on her. And she is a HIGH ELF

She says it herself, dunmer in windhelm are in that position because they dont pitch in and dont ask for help.
And also they are all nice and all to that guy who becomes Jarl of windhelm if imperials win, but they are also racist as hell and involved in crimes.

3. Lets put ourselves to the Nords position for a moment.

Lets say NATO and USSR went to war and you are an american soldier fighting for NATO. The war is a phyric "victory" but USSR dictates all the terms and has its agents all over NATO teritory, US included. The treaty demands that worship of Jesus be forbiden in US teritory, that NKVD agents can take anyone and execute them. And all that goes over american backs. Where would you stand? Would you remain in NATO event if that is better long term or would you fight tooth and nail to get out of there?

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1. Most Stormcloaks come off as ignorant, not truly knowing what they're fighting for. Ulfric knows what he fights for and the risks it poses, but most of his followers don't have much knowledge regarding the Thalmor.

2. Most Nords don't hate other races, but don't forget the Dunmer in Windhelm who works hard and even has Nord employees, yet is still forced to live in the Grey Quarters, despite putting down other Dunmer who do complain.

3. Not every Nord is a Stormcloak supporter, though. It's probably split.

1. I never had that feel..
2. Yes but I think it is more to the money or will to go somewhere else than not being able to.
3. As not every american would join the resistance in that scenario.

Mookie said:

1. I never had that feel..
2. Yes but I think it is more to the money or will to go somewhere else than not being able to.
3. As not every american would join the resistance in that scenario.

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1. They're ignorant because they don't know the consequences of their fighting in the first place.

2. Not buying it. If there isn't at least one Dunmer living outside the Grey Quarters, all fingers point to racism.

3. True.

1. And what are the consequences?
2. Just because there isnt one doesnt mean they are being prevented. High elf says it, they dont mix or get involved in anything, they stick to each other. You cant advance like that.

Mookie said:

1. And what are the consequences?
2. Just because there isnt one doesnt mean they are being prevented. High elf says it, they dont mix or get involved in anything, they stick to each other. You cant advance like that.

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1. Overall the Empire is an ally to Skyrim. Breaking off from them might present advantages to the Thalmor. Nothing is certain, but I doubt most Stormcloaks even realize because they're being lead by their emotions. Ulfric knows what he's getting into, the consequences of what he's doing, etc., which is why I can respect what he's doing.

2. If there isn't at least one Dunmer living outside of the Grey Quarters then I call BS. If there was at least one then you'd have a point.

(( A couple of things, Mookie. ))

Ah, all that genocide was a response to the slavery. It was either we burned them alive as a lesson, or we let them keep thinking the slavery was okay. Now, I have to continue burning my naval uniforms.

(( Uhh, yes. Anyway, the Argonians were simply retaliating to slavery, Mookie. You can't be forced into servitude for years and not hate the people who did it to you, even to the point of irrationality. I've noticed Elves are the typical races for slavery and oppression (e.g. Ayleids, Falmer, Dunmer, Altmer), which probably means it's a natural, biological, behavioural thing across most of merkind. So in some way, they can't help it. Sorta. ))

Skyrim was ally to empire before the great war. And got stabed in the back. Empire had 25 years to recuperate before stormcloaks rebeled yet the situation wasnt any better. Also an independent Skyrim is an asset greater than empire. They can help Hammerfell, High Rock, Cyrodil, Morrowind from their position. It is also imposible for Altmer to invade solely Skyrim. Do you see its position?
And moving huge navy trough sea of ghosts isnt a smart idea...

Just look at the map.

Captain Nagisus said:

(( A couple of things, Mookie. ))(( Uhh, yes. Anyway, the Argonians were simply retaliating to slavery, Mookie. You can't be forced into servitude for years and not hate the people who did it to you, even to the point of irrationality. I've noticed Elves are the typical races for slavery and oppression (e.g. Ayleids, Falmer, Dunmer, Altmer), which probably means it's a natural, biological, behavioural thing across most of merkind. So in some way, they can't help it. Sorta. ))

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Its not a mer thing its a dominant species thing. The Silver-Bloods and their slave mine comes to mind.

Captain Nagisus said:

(( A couple of things, Mookie. ))

Ah, all that genocide was a response to the slavery. It was either we burned them alive as a lesson, or we let them keep thinking the slavery was okay. Now, I have to continue burning my naval uniforms.

(( Uhh, yes. Anyway, the Argonians were simply retaliating to slavery, Mookie. You can't be forced into servitude for years and not hate the people who did it to you, even to the point of irrationality. I've noticed Elves are the typical races for slavery and oppression (e.g. Ayleids, Falmer, Dunmer, Altmer), which probably means it's a natural, biological, behavioural thing across most of merkind. So in some way, they can't help it. Sorta. ))

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I know, but I pointed it out so we can see that not only Nords are such..