Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Ozan · Apr 5, 2013

Dagmar said:
You're wrong. It's a logical fallacy to equate the Renrijra Krin to all Khajiit. In Oblivion the Khajiit are well assimilated into Cyrodiilic society which runs counter to the notion that they would shun the legion. While it's not the most accessible lore source, one of the minor characters from the duology is a Khajiit that serves in the Penitus Oculatus. This is all lore and it hardly supports a belief that a Khajiit would have nothing to do with the Legion.

((Why do you hate me so much? I'm trying to escape this thread. :c

Though I do appreciate the correction. Good to know.))

((ETA: Actually, before I release anything, would you like to check the lore on anything I write? I don't have a computer, so internet connection is limitted to a phone. In addition, this means its very hard to do any research, especially considering I've not had a moment to myself for two months now.

I'd very much appreciate your input. If I contradict the lore too much, I'd just hate myself for it.))

Dagmar · Apr 5, 2013

Ozan said:
((Besides, fighting legion style is frowned upon by Khajiiti culture. Guerrilla style is far more simpler for them, and common.))

There is nothing "simple" about Khajiit military tactics. Their tactics are sophisticated, clever and efficient as described in Mixed Unit Tactics. They do not rely on guerilla warfare. The engaged in regular battles including the the Heart of Anequina which is perhaps the most well known and celebrated battle in Khajiit culture. The State of Anequina has a warrior culture. Guerilla warfare is the Renrijra Krin way but it is not the Khajiit way.

Ozan · Apr 5, 2013

Dagmar said:
There is nothing "simple" about Khajiit military tactics. Their tactics are sophisticated, clever and efficient as described in Mixed Unit Tactics. They do not rely on guerilla warfare. The engaged in regular battles including the the Heart of Anequina which is perhaps the most well known and celebrated battle in Khajiit culture. The State of Anequina has a warrior culture. Guerilla warfare is the Renrijra Krin way but it is not the Khajiit way.

((You're just going to beat me down now because you don't like my face, huh? :c))

Dagmar · Apr 5, 2013

Raijin said:
...It was the Redguard woman that was going to sell Prince Mede into slavery....

She was going to try to sell him in Elsweyr. DrunkenMage's point is that Khajiit have unclean hands and no position of superior moral authority when it comes to the issue of slavery. Anyone claiming to the contrary is standing on very shaky ground.

Dagmar · Apr 5, 2013

Ozan said:
((You're just going to beat me down now because you don't like my face, huh? :c))

It's nothing personal. I generally poke my head in here to see if any misinformation about the lore is promulgated to support a position. If you want to message me about a lore inquiry I'm fine with that. You're actually good from a roleplaying POV of a Khajiit that identifies with the Renrijra Krin. It's hardly inconsistent for any radical element in a society to equate their way as the one true way for the entire society and the Renrijra Krin are nothing if not that for Khajiit society (or at least they were prior to the coup and dissolution of the united confederacy of Elsweyr).

Also if you have an iPad or other Apple product that uses iOS, or a Kindle or Nook you can download all of the books of the Elder Scrolls games at Dovahkiin Gutenberg onto your device which will put a lot of lore content at your fingertips.

Dagmar · Apr 5, 2013

The Laoch said:
The prince went with Sul, the prince would of pretty been content with running around Cyrodil if it wasn't for annaig.

I fail to see how this relevant. Annaïg informed him of the threat of Umbriel and his first act was to appeal to his father to move against it and his second was to defy his father's wishes and engage it anyway. His motives are noble while Sul's are selfish.

The Laoch said:
We aren't for certain, but Sul was the real person that went to stop it. The prince would have been a slave if it wasn't for him.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real person". Treb is as real as Sul. For all his faults and all of Sul's superiority in combat, knowledge and wisdom, Treb's role is instrumental in stopping the threat of Umbriel as is Annaïg's, Mer-Glim's and Colin's. None of their roles can be categorized as trivial, and if you think otherwise you read a different set of books than I did.

Ozan · Apr 5, 2013

Dagmar said:
It's nothing personal. I generally poke my head in here to see if any misinformation about the lore is promulgated to support a position. If you want to message me about a lore inquiry I'm fine with that. You're actually good from a roleplaying POV of a Khajiit that identifies with the Renrijra Krin. It's hardly inconsistent for any radical element in a society to equate their way as the one true way for the entire society and the Renrijra Krin are nothing if not that for Khajiit society (or at least they were prior to the coup and dissolution of the united confederacy of Elsweyr).

Also if you have an iPad or other Apple product that uses iOS, or a Kindle or Nook you can download all of the books of the Elder Scrolls games at Dovahkiin Gutenberg onto your device which will put a lot of lore content at your fingertips.

Can't afford it))

Raijin · Apr 5, 2013

DrunkenMage said:
He doesn't lead the Companions, there are no leaders. Not since Ysgramor. Get that one into your head, you keep saying "leading member of the Companions" He isn't anyone's leader, he offers guidance and advises. He does advise the Circle about the Beast Blood, he is openly against it. But since everyone is a free man and woman, they don't have to listen to him. You hate Kodlak because he doesn't lead, he is only the Harbinger, you either listen to him or you don't, it's your choice. "I am nobody's Master" Don't call yourself a Nord and hate the Companions, they are very treasured to Nords, a line coming down from Ysgramor's 500. You can't respect someone who uses war paint? War paint is a part of their culture, so you disrespect many Stormcloaks.

Technically base on the lore the Companions are “leaderless” but the fact is the members views Kodlak as their leader. Vilkas: "Master, you're not truly considering accepting him/her?" To become a member of the Companions... you must go and speak with Kodlak. If he's not the leader when they am I being told to speak with the man to officially join the Companions? Shouldn't the members of the circle be the ones to judge my skills as a warrior, and determine if I'm Companion worthy? After all they did see what I can do when I assisted on aiding them in battle with a Giant in a close proximity of Whiterun's city.

DrunkenMage said:
Stormcloaks did harm others in the process, Talos worship was done in secret for the sake of thousands of lives that died for that hard won treaty. Ulfric used Talos as a tool to become High King, speaking with Hadvar shows Ulfric has been trying to rally people, using Talos worship as the basis, he wasn't getting much success so he killed the High King to send a message to the other Jarls. Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies." He used his voice to kill the High King, probably as a rally since Talos used the voice.

Ulfric is an advocate in what he truly believes in, and that is the freedom from the Imperial shackles. He is a typical politician. By rallying up people in his favor he is campaigning. In order for him to be High King he must have the support of his people. Yes he wants to become High King of Skytim and theirs nothing wrong with wanting to become High King if you truly believe that the current High King is doing a crappy job. Apparently Torygg was all talk, and no action. Torygg was interested in Ulfrics views in Skyrim independence, but why didn't he take action? Why didn't he summon Jarl Ulfric (Mind you Torygg was Ulfric's boss) to come to Solitude to arrange this Independence? And to help develop strong and self reliant armies, since Ulfric has a significant amount of experience with dealing with the Military. I know you dislike Talos because of his dark past, but people in Skyrim heavily worships him. To take way their right to worship him is like taking part of their souls away.

DrunkenMage said:
Being a Werewolf isn't unpredictable, Sinding was cursed for stealing Hircine's ring. Thus wearing the 'Cursed ring' The Companions have their beast blood under control.

You're wrong. Someone who is heavily into the lore should of caught on to this.

Those with the beast blood are prone to violence, whether accidental or intentional, as they live with a constant bloodlust which drives them to kill and devour their enemies. Werewolves are widely feared and hated in Skyrim as in other provinces, and will be attacked on sight if spotted in beast form. They possess deadly armor-piercing claws and incredible strength, and are capable of easily knocking most creatures they encounter to the ground. -http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Werewolves

Why do you think theirs 2 groups (Silver hand and the Vigilant of Stendarr) hunts down Werewolves?

DrunkenMage said:
You try to make Ulfric something he's not. How can he fight for freedom when he takes away freedom, you can't be neutral with Ulfric, you either pick up a sword in his name or you die as an enemy. That is why I support the Empire, they do not force a sword in your hand, saying "Fight for us, or die an enemy" Ulfric is a tyrant, who has taken away the Jarl's rights to be independent since the time of the Pact of Chieftains.

I'm sure that Ulfric does have some skeletons tucked away in his closet, but he's no tyrant and neither is the Empire. The true tyrant is the Aldmeri Dominion. Unfortunately the Empire is weak and unable to successfully defeat the Aldmeri Dominion without sacrificing the freedom of religion. The Empire thought that they could reject the treaty when it was first brought up to them, but they were sadly mistaken, and it cost the lives of many. Ulfric and Nords like him go by their Nordic traditions. To die fighting is a great honor and it reards them with going to sovngade. It explains why Ulfric and Galmar said this during Battle of Solitude:

Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Ulfric went from PRO Empire to now Anti Empire. Why do you suppose that is? The Empire changed not for the good, but for the worst, and people see it.
Let me give you another set of an example of proud Nordic traditions that the Empire severely lacks.
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not."
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."

Doesn't this remind you of someone... someone that you just called a tyrant? Rikke and Ulfric are a lot a like. They're both proud true Nords that would fight and die for what they strongly believe in. Ulfric pleaded to Rikke to go, and that she was free to leave, but Rikke stood her grounds like the true Nord that she is, and told Ulfric that she would rather die fighting for what she believes in than to take the cowards way out like what General Tullius took. All of the highly trained and disciplined soldiers of the Empire went down the drain as Tullius gave up during the civil war. The Empire hasn't changed for the better. While it's sad to see the Empire losing another province it is for the best.

DrunkenMage said:
How can you be free when you're forced to fight. You hated the Companions because you were forced to accept the beast blood. How do you think people would feel when they're forced to kill their friends and family because you're either with the Stormcloaks or you're against them. The Empire at least isn't like that, no matter what your views are they still defend you. "It matters little if some people here are ignorant of that truth, they are still citizens of the Empire, it is our solemn duty to protect them." - Legate Fasendil

Ulfric doesn't force anyone to fight, and for Shor's beard stop beating off to the bear of Markarth already. Theirs just not enough strong evidence from other sources to back it up. It could very well be Imperial propaganda. If Ulfric was forcing people to fight, then how come he doesn't force the Dunmers in Windhelm to fight for his cause?

Rolff (Not a Stormcloak but a nasty drunk who happens to be the brother of Galmar): "You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
Suvaris (Dunmer): "But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight." (Ulfric isn't forcing her to fight for Skyrims freedom)
Angrenor(A former Stormcloak who is now a beggar): "Hey, maybe the reason these gray-skins don't help in the war is because they're Imperial spies!"

Rolff: "They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom. Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."

This pretty much summons things up, and to prove your incorrect theory that Ulfric forces people to fight for him. If it was true then Ulfric would've ordered every Dunmer in his city to be executed... since they're essentially “against” the Stormcloaks for not siding with them during the civil war.

I don't just hate the Companions because I was forced to accept the beast blood, I hate it because the saga was plops, and was piss poor. I blame Bethesda for not proving a better storyline. I felt as if I was Role-playing with Team Jacob on the twilight series. I blame Bethesda for my dislike of the companions. I showed no emotions when Kodlak died, and it's not my fault. Bethesada plopsted on him as a character by not giving him a decent storyline.

Raijin · Apr 5, 2013

Dagmar said:
Also if you have an iPad or other Apple product that uses iOS, or a Kindle or Nook you can download all of the books of the Elder Scrolls games at Dovahkiin Gutenberg onto your device which will put a lot of lore content at your fingertips.

I have an Iphone 4S (Jailbroken) where can I download the app to read the files? I've been trying to find something like this for the longest time.

DrunkenMage · Apr 5, 2013

Raijin said:
Technically base on the lore the Companions are “leaderless” but the fact is the members views Kodlak as their leader. Vilkas: "Master, you're not truly considering accepting him/her?" To become a member of the Companions... you must go and speak with Kodlak. If he's not the leader when they am I being told to speak with the man to officially join the Companions? Shouldn't the members of the circle be the ones to judge my skills as a warrior, and determine if I'm Companion worthy? After all they did see what I can do when I assisted on aiding them in battle with a Giant in a close proximity of Whiterun's city.

Ulfric is an advocate in what he truly believes in, and that is the freedom from the Imperial shackles. He is a typical politician. By rallying up people in his favor he is campaigning. In order for him to be High King he must have the support of his people. Yes he wants to become High King of Skytim and theirs nothing wrong with wanting to become High King if you truly believe that the current High King is doing a crappy job. Apparently Torygg was all talk, and no action. Torygg was interested in Ulfrics views in Skyrim independence, but why didn't he take action? Why didn't he summon Jarl Ulfric (Mind you Torygg was Ulfric's boss) to come to Solitude to arrange this Independence? And to help develop strong and self reliant armies, since Ulfric has a significant amount of experience with dealing with the Military. I know you dislike Talos because of his dark past, but people in Skyrim heavily worships him. To take way their right to worship him is like taking part of their souls away.

You're wrong. Someone who is heavily into the lore should of caught on to this.

Those with the beast blood are prone to violence, whether accidental or intentional, as they live with a constant bloodlust which drives them to kill and devour their enemies. Werewolves are widely feared and hated in Skyrim as in other provinces, and will be attacked on sight if spotted in beast form. They possess deadly armor-piercing claws and incredible strength, and are capable of easily knocking most creatures they encounter to the ground. -http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Werewolves

Why do you think theirs 2 groups (Silver hand and the Vigilant of Stendarr) hunts down Werewolves?

I'm sure that Ulfric does have some skeletons tucked away in his closet, but he's no tyrant and neither is the Empire. The true tyrant is the Aldmeri Dominion. Unfortunately the Empire is weak and unable to successfully defeat the Aldmeri Dominion without sacrificing the freedom of religion. The Empire thought that they could reject the treaty when it was first brought up to them, but they were sadly mistaken, and it cost the lives of many. Ulfric and Nords like him go by their Nordic traditions. To die fighting is a great honor and it reards them with going to sovngade. It explains why Ulfric and Galmar said this during Battle of Solitude:

Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Ulfric went from PRO Empire to now Anti Empire. Why do you suppose that is? The Empire changed not for the good, but for the worst, and people see it.
Let me give you another set of an example of proud Nordic traditions that the Empire severely lacks.
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not."
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."

Doesn't this remind you of someone... someone that you just called a tyrant? Rikke and Ulfric are a lot a like. They're both proud true Nords that would fight and die for what they strongly believe in. Ulfric pleaded to Rikke to go, and that she was free to leave, but Rikke stood her grounds like the true Nord that she is, and told Ulfric that she would rather die fighting for what she believes in than to take the cowards way out like what General Tullius took. All of the highly trained and disciplined soldiers of the Empire went down the drain as Tullius gave up during the civil war. The Empire hasn't changed for the better. While it's sad to see the Empire losing another province it is for the best.

Ulfric doesn't force anyone to fight, and for Shor's beard stop beating off to the bear of Markarth already. Theirs just not enough strong evidence from other sources to back it up. It could very well be Imperial propaganda. If Ulfric was forcing people to fight, then how come he doesn't force the Dunmers in Windhelm to fight for his cause?

Rolff (Not a Stormcloak but a nasty drunk who happens to be the brother of Galmar): "You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks."
Suvaris (Dunmer): "But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight." (Ulfric isn't forcing her to fight for Skyrims freedom)
Angrenor(A former Stormcloak who is now a beggar): "Hey, maybe the reason these gray-skins don't help in the war is because they're Imperial spies!"

Rolff: "They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom. Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."

This pretty much summons things up, and to prove your incorrect theory that Ulfric forces people to fight for him. If it was true then Ulfric would've ordered every Dunmer in his city to be executed... since they're essentially “against” the Stormcloaks for not siding with them during the civil war.

I don't just hate the Companions because I was forced to accept the beast blood, I hate it because the saga was pl***, and was piss poor. I blame Bethesda for not proving a better storyline. I felt as if I was Role-playing with Team Jacob on the twilight series. I blame Bethesda for my dislike of the companions. I showed no emotions when Kodlak died, and it's not my fault. Bethesada pl***ted on him as a character by not giving him a decent storyline.

Not bad, first kind of decent post in ages

You're accepted into the Companions by the circle, not Kodlak. You wanted to join the Companions and you saw Kodlak who was Harbinger which he says he'll allow you a chance, you're still not part of the Companions yet. Then Vilkas tests your arm so Vilkas decides also if you're worthy but it is actually Skjor that sets you onto the path of joining by giving you the trial. This is mentioned by a Companion who goes "I don't know why Skjor let you join in the first place" Then your acceptance into the Companions is done by the entire circle. "The judgement of this circle is complete" (Something like that)

He didn't accept Ulfric's plan because it was probably stupid, the man is driven by hatred. He doesn't think logically. He hates the Empire with a passion since the death of his fire. I don't dislike Talos, I just don't think he was so perfect as people make him out to be.

Well actually I'm right, you can have control over it, even when they hear the call of the blood. Nice try though

'Captured: in Morrowind, while in beast form
Makeup: Male, Breton in his true form
Notes: Subject shows an unusually high degree of control over his transformations.' - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Physicalities_of_Werewolves

Why do you think there are groups that hunt down Vampires? People don't always like what they understand, you'll always be a monster to them, no matter your deeds. You should know that best of all. The Vigilant of Stendarr hunt down many things, though mainly Daedra worshipers.

Ulfric surrendered without a fight to Tullius before Helgan. Tullius jumped to Rikke's aid when she was attacked in Castle Dour, he also faced his death pretty well, Tullius isn't a Nord he doesn't believe in dying for nothing. His last words were "So be it"

Ulfric forced Jarl Bulgruuf to fight, the Stormcloaks which is noted many times over by their officers and Galmar and Ulfric "You're with us or you're against us" The Bear of Markarth is hardly Imperial propaganda, considering the same author doesn't say nice things about the Empire either in his other book.

He wouldn't order them executed, they were protected under his father's reign. He does love his father, what he does do is treat them like lesser beings, such is seen by the lack of guards who patrol their living area, also the renaming of the Snow Quarter to the Gray Quarter.

The Companions aren't the best and I don't like their story line either that much. Though from RP POV, they are well loved throughout Skyrim and Kodlak's words are highly respected by all of the Nine Holds.

Ozan · Apr 6, 2013

Dagmar said:
You're wrong. It's a logical fallacy to equate the Renrijra Krin to all Khajiit. In Oblivion the Khajiit are well assimilated into Cyrodiilic society which runs counter to the notion that they would shun the legion. While it's not the most accessible lore source, one of the minor characters from the duology is a Khajiit that serves in the Penitus Oculatus. This is all lore and it hardly supports a belief that a Khajiit would have nothing to do with the Legion.

((Wait a minute, it just occurred to me. Imperial culture is particularly accepting, but what of Khajiit who grew up in Aldmeri Elsweyr? Considering a good number is pro Thalmor, coupled with the fact that Elsweyr is composed of two bodies forming a confederacy (and assuming both still exist, be it protectorate or otherwise), why would Khajiit join the Legion? It would be somewhat rare to see Khajiit in the Legion where medium armor was traditional and far more appreciated than the Heavy Armor commonly and stereotypically associated with the legion. I can only think that Khajiit raised elsewhere would be sympathetic to the Legion and the Empire as a whole. Unless, like certain Altmer, they were directly victimized by the Thalmor, keyword being directly, why would Khajiit support the Empire?))

Dagmar · Apr 6, 2013

The Elsweyr Confederacy no longer exists. There is simply the State of Anequina and the State of Pellitine. A Khajiit of Tamriel isn't by default loyal to Anequina or Pellitine anymore than an Altmer is loyal to the Alinor or a Bosmer is loyal to Valenwood.

The Imperial Legion has different kinds of armor. When I did the Imperial Legion quest line I was always wearing light armor. There's no reason why Khajiits wouldn't be deployed in a similar manner and it's not exactly what one would call a compelling reason for a Khajiit to not join the Imperial Legion.

Ozan · Apr 6, 2013

Dagmar said:
The Elsweyr Confederacy no longer exists. There is simply the State of Anequina and the State of Pellitine. A Khajiit of Tamriel isn't by default loyal to Anequina or Pellitine anymore than an Altmer is loyal to the Alinor or a Bosmer is loyal to Valenwood.

The Imperial Legion has different kinds of armor. When I did the Imperial Legion quest line I was always wearing light armor. There's no reason why Khajiits wouldn't be deployed in a similar manner and it's not exactly what one would call a compelling reason for a Khajiit to not join the Imperial Legion.

((I certainly agree that a Khajiit is capable of joining, but my question is more a matter of why rather than why not. Certainly, a Khajiit who was raised in Leyawiin and didn't mind Imperial authority would be supportive of the Empire, but how would the legion appeal to a Khajiit? Particularly in Skyrim, so far north and cold. Argonians are supposedly somewhat common in the legion, but how many Khajiit can you recall serving the empire besides that one Occulatus (sp) agent?

TThough true they could have a place in the legion, it is still a matter of why.))

DrunkenMage · Apr 6, 2013

Ozan said:
((I certainly agree that a Khajiit is capable of joining, but my question is more a matter of why rather than why not. Certainly, a Khajiit who was raised in Leyawiin and didn't mind Imperial authority would be supportive of the Empire, but how would the legion appeal to a Khajiit? Particularly in Skyrim, so far north and cold. Argonians are supposedly somewhat common in the legion, but how many Khajiit can you recall serving the empire besides that one Occulatus (sp) agent?

TThough true they could have a place in the legion, it is still a matter of why.))

The same reason any race joins the Legion, everyone has their reasons. Not all Imperials are in the Legion or are even pro Empire, there is an Imperial farmer going to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks.

People join because they decide to join, the same with any Military these days. Not every American joins the Army etc. People have personal reasons. Not every single person who is in the Legion is always marked, so there probably are several Khajiit in the Legion. The Legion is described as an all races, they have a no discrimination policy in recruitment, so they recruit based on endurance, not race.

AryaTheBlonde · Apr 7, 2013

Stormcloaks all the way! For Skyrim and the rest of Tamareil, it would be best to throw out the power seeking imperials!

Ozan · Apr 7, 2013

DrunkenMage said:
The same reason any race joins the Legion, everyone has their reasons. Not all Imperials are in the Legion or are even pro Empire, there is an Imperial farmer going to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks.

People join because they decide to join, the same with any Military these days. Not every American joins the Army etc. People have personal reasons. Not every single person who is in the Legion is always marked, so there probably are several Khajiit in the Legion. The Legion is described as an all races, they have a no discrimination policy in recruitment, so they recruit based on endurance, not race.

((Too hungover to read it all. That and military service is something I'm for, so I can't provide an accurate retort.

fluff, I think that stripper took all my gold. ><))

Fishy Buisness · Apr 8, 2013

I always support the imperials. The Stormcloaks are just so racist to anyone that isn't a Nord. The imperial jarls are so much better in most cases then the Stormcloak jarls as well.

Anouck · Apr 12, 2013

Raijin · Apr 12, 2013

Ulfric didn't murder and torture anyone. That's purely an Imperial propaganda ... which they seem to be good at spreading. It's the only thing that their good at these days.

Dagmar · Apr 12, 2013

Raijin said:
Ulfric didn't....torture anyone.

He didn't torture the elderly, women and adolescents of Markarth that didn't support the Stormcloaks. He simply executed them. I guess executing non-combatants isn't murder in the version of the dictionary that you carry around. Poe-tay-toe, poe-tah-toe.

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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