Spoiler Why the Dragonborn should be High King

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Do you think there should be a DLC related to becoming High King?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 54.3%
  • No

    Votes: 10 28.6%
  • I thought Elisif the Fair gets High Queen?

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • This is stupid... Burn in hell (I hope for none of these >:(...)

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
To help your little argument guys:

In the Elder Scrolls wiki Trivia section it say's 'Pelagius is technically a Breton as due to him being a mix of man and mer.'
scroll to the bottom of the page and look at trivia http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Pelagius_Septim_III

obviously he is imperial in a sense that that he is the emperor and was born in imperial lands. If I was born in the USA I could say I was American, but my blood and ancestry would show that I am of English/Scottish descent.

For a second source see the UESP which also states the same ' Emperor Pelagius Septim III, is a Breton citizen' http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Pelagius_the_Mad

Being an Imperial means being an Imperial. A Khajiit born in Skyrim doesn't make him a Nord. Being born in Cyrodiil or any province controlled by the Empire makes you a Citizen of the Empire, not Imperial. 'The Imperial race emerged out of the original Nibenese tribesman, Nedes and Cyro-Nords in the Merethic Era' They're a race not a status.
 
Let's look at this the other way. If you take his side in the Civil War, Ulfric gains the Jagged Crown, uses military might to take over the Imperial Jarls, and replace them with his own cronies, the Dragonborn kills General Tullius (And possibly the Emperor) AND HE STILL DOESN'T BECOME HIGH KING! neither of you do. Even with complete undisputed dominance of all the holds, the symbolic artefact of the office, right as Jarl, defeating the last High King in a duel with all the pre-requisites of making That official, he goes back to being the Jarl of Windhelm. Again, if it doesn't work for Him, it won't work for You.

No, just no. Let me put this in words you will understand, "Yer doin it wrong!"
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Let's look at this the other way. If you take his side in the Civil War, Ulfric gains the Jagged Crown, uses military might to take over the Imperial Jarls, and replace them with his own cronies, the Dragonborn kills General Tullius (And possibly the Emperor) AND HE STILL DOESN'T BECOME HIGH KING! neither of you do. Even with complete undisputed dominance of all the holds, the symbolic artefact of the office, right as Jarl, defeating the last High King in a duel with all the pre-requisites of making That official, he goes back to being the Jarl of Windhelm. Again, if it doesn't work for Him, it won't work for You.

No, just no. Let me put this in words you will understand, "Yer doin it wrong!"

He set that up himself as a political move to appear like he believes in doing traditions.

Ulfric: "To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."
 

wrighty

Thalmor 3rd Emissary
He set that up himself as a political move to appear like he believes in doing traditions.

Ulfric: "To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

one of my favourite bits of conversation in the game, Ulfric would never not accept the title if he didn't already know that he would win the moot.
 
He set that up himself as a political move to appear like he believes in doing traditions.

Ulfric: "To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"
Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."
Exactly, thank you for proving my point. He does (With your help) exactly what you're talking about doing, and even he knows that doesn't make him High King of Skyrim. He could try to use all of that, every trapping of the office to Declare himself so, but being a Nord, Jarl, and product of the political system by which it's actually done, he knows it would be an empty title. As Dragonborn et-al, your claim would be even more obviously specious.
 
one of my favourite bits of conversation in the game, Ulfric would never not accept the title if he didn't already know that he would win the moot.
Right, but Might isn't the only thing that qualifies him. He is the most powerful of the Jarls, which kind of require him be a Jarl in the first place. Not the Power of the Voice, but Political Power, support of the people, and the other Jarls (Because he deposed the ones who were against him, and replaced them with supporters.) He has the Jagged Crown, and defeated the last High King in an official duel. There's literally no way to dispute his Right. So no, at best you could make Ulfric High King, and hope he'd show his appreciation with a Jarldom. Then, you might could use that as a basis to challenge Him for the Jagged Crown, but being Dragonborn, Listener, Thane (your reward for doing all this) and all the other stuff listed in the OP would have nothing to do with it. In other words, if it were made possible, you'd have to do it the right way. If not, you could call yourself "High King', but would be nothing but a Despot.

And historically, whenever a Tyrant rose up to seize power, a Hero emerged to stop them. It happened to Dagoth Ur, Mehrunes Dagon, and Alduin, the prophecied God of ending the World. At that point, you wouldn't be the hero any more, you'd be the Boss Fight.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
He already had the support of the eastern Jarls, the western Jarls he replaces need his army to rule, his army loyal only to him.

Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

He controls the Moot, speaking to him after the Battle for Solitude also about calling him High King "No, not yet. We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King. It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't start acting like it."

His claim for High King is protected by an army loyal to him, by Galmar his enforcer in charge of keeping the Jarls in line, much like Tullius put Rikke in charge of assisting the new Governments, Galmar gets a similar job just not so much assisting them. "Heh. Ulfric's put me in charge of keeping an eye on the new Jarls. You know, make sure they're generally following orders."

 

wrighty

Thalmor 3rd Emissary
Right, but Might isn't the only thing that qualifies him. He is the most powerful of the Jarls, which kind of require him be a Jarl in the first place. Not the Power of the Voice, but Political Power, support of the people, and the other Jarls (Because he deposed the ones who were against him, and replaced them with supporters.) He has the Jagged Crown, and defeated the last High King in an official duel. There's literally no way to dispute his Right. So no, at best you could make Ulfric High King, and hope he'd show his appreciation with a Jarldom. Then, you might could use that as a basis to challenge Him for the jagged Crown, but being Dragonborn, Listener, Thane (your reward for doing all this) and all the other stuff listed in the OP would have nothing to do with it. In other words, if it were made possible, you'd have to do it the right way. If not, you could call yourself "High King', but would be nothing but a Despot.

I agree that to technically be the true high king you should be voted in, of all the current Jarls Ulfric has the most right to be high king, and more support from Nords than any other Jarl.
However I also think there's other ways of looking at it, If you conquer Skyrim and take the Throne you could say your not a true high king but a conqueror, which in that case anyone that conquers a region is not the true ruler, you could say for example that Nords are not the true rulers at all, in fact elves were the first race in Skyrim, the Nords came after as immigrants. So rather than the nordic title of high king it should just be whoever conquers is king.
There's lots of ways of looking at it, the way I see it is, forget about titles and votes, if you control the land you are the ruler and you are the king by military might or not. The dragonborn could achieve this in many different ways with many different allies.
Actually why couldn't the dragonborn challenge the high king/queen (Ulfric/Elisif) to a duel, 1 on 1 just like how ulfric challenged Torygg? That is the old Nord way after all, is it not?
 

Cylos

The Last Dragonborn
If you took Skyrim by force, the populace would be split and it would cause another civil war. Just because you're powerful doesn't entitle you to political dominance, they never made Shalidor High King for example.
The only way the Dragonborn could be crowned High King/Queen is through the support and selection of the people and Jarls.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I agree that to technically be the true high king you should be voted in, of all the current Jarls Ulfric has the most right to be high king, and more support from Nords than any other Jarl.
However I also think there's other ways of looking at it, If you conquer Skyrim and take the Throne you could say your not a true high king but a conqueror, which in that case anyone that conquers a region is not the true ruler, you could say for example that Nords are not the true rulers at all, in fact elves were the first race in Skyrim, the Nords came after as immigrants. So rather than the nordic title of high king it should just be whoever conquers is king.
There's lots of ways of looking at it, the way I see it is, forget about titles and votes, if you control the land you are the ruler and you are the king by military might or not. The dragonborn could achieve this in many different ways with many different allies.
Actually why couldn't the dragonborn challenge the high king/queen (Ulfric/Elisif) to a duel, 1 on 1 just like how ulfric challenged Torygg? That is the old Nord way after all, is it not?

Ulfric doesn't have more support of Nords than any other Jarl, it is a Civil war because Skyrim is torn between the two choices. It isn't a Imperial vs Nord war, when you enter Skyrim the country is split down the middle with Whiterun neutral to begin with.

Technically Skyrim hasn't had a true High King since the Ysgramor blood line ended and the War of Succession tore the First Empire of the Nords apart. Tiber Septim was a conqueror, him and Titus Mede I share a common trait, both attacked the Imperial City and both proclaimed themselves Emperor.
 
I agree that to technically be the true high king you should be voted in, of all the current Jarls Ulfric has the most right to be high king, and more support from Nords than any other Jarl.
However I also think there's other ways of looking at it, If you conquer Skyrim and take the Throne you could say your not a true high king but a conqueror, which in that case anyone that conquers a region is not the true ruler, you could say for example that Nords are not the true rulers at all, in fact elves were the first race in Skyrim, the Nords came after as immigrants. So rather than the nordic title of high king it should just be whoever conquers is king.
There's lots of ways of looking at it, the way I see it is, forget about titles and votes, if you control the land you are the ruler and you are the king by military might or not. The dragonborn could achieve this in many different ways with many different allies.
Actually why couldn't the dragonborn challenge the high king/queen (Ulfric/Elisif) to a duel, 1 on 1 just like how ulfric challenged Torygg? That is the old Nord way after all, is it not?
If I were writing such an Expansion, I would probably put in 2 paths, 1) Making Ulfric High King, attending the Moot, being made Jarl (Of Solitude, Ulfric would return the Capital to Windhelm, and probably fix up the place.) or 2) Take over by force, raise an army, or armies of Reachmen, Dunmer Refugees, Thalmor, anyone who would have a reason to hate Ulfric enough to support your claim.

Thing is, if you go and prove it Can be done, I'd follow through with my last point, and script in a series of Challenges to your right to Rule. As I said, Tyrants are always opposed by a new Hero, even if they used to be the old one. So first, it'd probably be a Farm Boy, like Erik the "Champion of Rorikstead", then increasing in power, the Archmage of Winterhold, Ebony Warrior, Assassins (Who would actually at least try to Backstab you,) and so forth. Might actually be pretty awesome, you could order the construction of an Arena, like the Colleseum not just for gladiatorial combat to entertain you, but also face your Challengers in front of the people, and cement your position of Right from Might by defeating them Publically. Actually play the Boss fights!

And as I said before, you can always wait for TES OL, and become Emperor. Then, all these fights will probably be PVP...
 

Rand Althor

Legionnaire
Having fought for the legion and defeating Ulfric, I think it would be possible for the Empire to install my character as the High King. After all, being the Arch Mage of the College, becoming a Thane of every Hold, and defeating Alduin is an impressive resume that shows I'm more than capable of handling the position. However, as people have already posted above, I have no real, legitimate claim to the throne. I believe Elisif would be a far better ruler. Although she is rather meek and humble, perhaps after all the bloodshed Skyrim has seen, the kingdom needs someone who is less interested in political manourvering and conflict, and more in ruling fairly and honestly.

Also, in terms of dlc, perhaps it would be better to have your character to become an adviser to whoever eventually claims the throne. That way you could still make the decisions that the king/queen would without the actual title.
 

The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
It is rumored that the last two DLC will be

1)nord origin, snow elf history, and dwemer history. So mostly early Skyrim history and solving the dwemer disappearance.

2) choosing high king and solving the aldmeri problem in Skyrim.

I believe we will be high king, because we got the mantle of madness in Oblivion I believe that is bigger than getting high king.

I also hope we can marry Serana for my queen.
 

Seanu Reaves

The Shogun of Gaming
Don't know why the greatest Assassin, Thief, and Mercenary would make a good High King. Oh wait that's just me...
 

Neveraine

BRINGER OF DEATH
Practically the whole point of the civil war was to choose who becomes high king/queen, Ulfric or Elisif. What I wish I could do though is make the Jarl of Whiterun the high king because he is awesome and is mostly neutral, while Ulfric is a buthead who started this war and Elisif is a puppet.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Jarl is approximately equivalent of Duke, not King.
It's really neither here nor there but the term Jarl and King are used interchangeably in lore documents referring to the Jarls of Skyrim. What really matters is that in the absence of a lineal heir to the throne of the High King of Skyrim it's the Moot that elects the next High King. Without the support of the Moot there is no legitimacy to Ulfric's claim and he would be seen by many if not most Nords as a usurper.

Bear in mind that the Civil War is something Ulfric claims he is waging for the goals of the ejection of the both the Thalmor and the Empire from Skyrim to reestablish the sovereignty necessary to restore open worship of Talos in the land. Although there is ample evidence to draw the inference that another goal is to become the High King of Skyrim, Ulfric never overtly and explicitly states that as a motive and he recognizes the importance of respecting the authority of the Moot in legitimizing his rule enough to frustrate its meeting with the Civil War and to defer to the Moot, albeit one completely tilted in his favor, at the conclusion of the Stormcloak quest line.

Pelagius III was awarded the throne of Haafingar by Emperor Cephorus because of his noble blood line, his participation in the Siege for Solitude during the War of the Red Diamond, and because there was an <ahem> sudden vacancy in the throne at the conclusion of the Siege. With the conclusion of the Civil War, that ship has sailed for the Dovahkiin so there's no convenient vehicle to his ascension to Jarldom let alone the throne of the High King. Metaphorically speaking he's the teenager stuck at the kids' Thanksgiving table (Thanes) until someone at the adult table dies.
.... Also, that same Wiki you quoted has him listed as Imperial, Nord, AND Altmer, but not Breton...
Okay, you just equated UESP to The Elder Scrolls Wiki which almost made me throw up in my mouth a little. There is a huge disparity between the accuracy and reliability of the lore articles of those two sites as the quality of the articles at the latter are mediocre and filled with a considerable amount of inaccuracies and pure fabrications based on biased speculations and ignorance that have no place in a legitimate wiki site.

Pelagius III was indisputably Breton. This is irrefutably established by the lore. The Breton bloodline was introduced into his bloodline by his grandmother Quintella of Camlorn who married Pelagius II. Her son and Pelagius III's father was Magnus, a Breton by race (it's established in the lore that the progeny of couplings of different playable races in the Elder Scrolls don't produce hybrids but rather offspring of one race or the other of the parents). This is further confirmed by the fact that Cassynder, his son with his Dunmer wife, Empress Kytariah is also Breton. Finally as in-game proof, you meet him during one of the Daedric quests in Skyrim and the console shows his race as Breton.

Regardless, the player character is a very poor choice for High King. It's inconsistent to the lore to place the main character of an ES game in such a prominent political position. It would be awkward at best to have future lore documents refer to the High King of Skyrim after the Civil War to be a nameless genderless person when every other person of prominence in a lore document is referred to by name. It's also inconsistent to do so in situation which would have to be based by explicitly choosing one of two conflicted outcomes based on player decision over the other (i.e. the Civil War faction quests) as an explicit part of the lore. That would be unprecedented and, aside from messing up the lore of the game series, it would bear the potential of alienating a substantial part of the fan/consumer base of the game series.

As a aside, pointing to all the various guilds the Dovahkiin leads and the Thane titles he or she holds is completely unpersuasive and inapplicable for advocating such a thing because the lore never attributes the side quests to the main character in ES games. In the lore those accomplishments are attributed in a vague manner to another person who is never identified with the main character.
 
It's really neither here nor there but the term Jarl and King are used interchangeably in lore documents referring to the Jarls of Skyrim.
Ok, sorry. I was refering to the historical usage of the word Jarl, or Earl, and confusing it for the Elder Scrolls equivalent. Other than that, thanks again for dazzling us with your minutely detailed knowledge of Tamrielic Lore.
 

stagnant94

Active Member

The Laoch

He is the Prince of Order. Or was it biscuits?
Regardless, the player character is a very poor choice for High King. It's inconsistent to the lore to place the main character of an ES game in such a prominent political position. It would be awkward at best to have future lore documents refer to the High King of Skyrim after the Civil War to be a nameless genderless person when every other person of prominence in a lore document is referred to by name. It's also inconsistent to do so in situation which would have to be based by explicitly choosing one of two conflicted outcomes based on player decision over the other (i.e. the Civil War faction quests) as an explicit part of the lore. That would be unprecedented and, aside from messing up the lore of the game series, it would bear the potential of alienating a substantial part of the fan/consumer base of the game series.
.
You say they couldn't canon a gender less and race less high king correct?

What about Sheogorath? He isn't gender less, he is a breton too. Why can't they canon a male Nord like on the cover?
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
You say they couldn't canon a gender less and race less high king correct?

What about Sheogorath? He isn't gender less, he is a breton too. Why can't they canon a male Nord like on the cover?
I'm saying that it's unprecedented and extremely awkward to refer to the High King of Skyrim in lore documents as a nameless, genderless entity. You won't find anything analagous in the lore documents within or without the games.

Sheogorath is not a Breton and more importantly he isn't some vague unnamed person in the lore. "He" is a Daedric Prince. Gender as we know it isn't a concept shared by Daedric immortals as they can and have manifested as both genders on Nirn according to the lore. How he chooses to manifest his avatar on Nirn is completely irrelevant to his actual nature and, in point of fact, in Oblivion his avatar had his own unique race assigned to him that bore his name. In Shivering Isles the player character literally becomes Sheogorath. There's nothing vague or ambiguous about it. In general this is a complete non-example of an exception to what is made canon by Bethesda.

Putting a male Nord on the "cover" (there is no such thing on the cover, it was part of the advertising campaign) doesn't make it canon. The race of the Dovahkiin is not canonized by Bethesda and, consistent with the heroes of the other games, it never will be.
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top