Alteration/Mystic Weapon or Smith/Heavy Armor?

  • Welcome to Skyrim Forums! Register now to participate using the 'Sign Up' button on the right. You may now register with your Facebook or Steam account!

Pijack

Member
Sup folks. I'm planning on doing a Breton. But I just can't decide whether I use what the Alteration perk tree has to offer, and thus have to use the mystic bound weapons, or use the goof old heavy armour smithing combo.

The thing is, the Alteration perk tree has a lot to offer, but Smith would provide with a better weapon then Mystic ones. And I want to use the Mage Armour perk, and improving Smithing would be pretty useless just for the Weapons. What do you all think?
 

Professor Skalvar

General of the Euphoric Gentleman's Club
For improving Bound Weapons, you could either choose Enchanting to make fortify One-Handed/Archery/Two-Handed gear or Alchemy to craft potions with the same effects.

One of my first characters was able to dish out +120 damage with a Bound Battleaxe because I invested perks in both the Two-Handed and Enchanting skill trees (she had Fortify Two-Handed enchanted gear). I haven't used Bound Weapons in a long while and may have to give it a go myself.
 

Pijack

Member
For improving Bound Weapons, you could either choose Enchanting to make fortify One-Handed/Archery/Two-Handed gear or Alchemy to craft potions with the same effects.

One of my first characters was able to dish out +120 damage with a Bound Battleaxe because I invested perks in both the Two-Handed and Enchanting skill trees (she had Fortify Two-Handed enchanted gear). I haven't used Bound Weapons in a long while and may have to give it a go myself.
The thing is, if I used smithing instead, the damaga damage output would be even higher! Plus, I could use Dragon Plate Armour.

What gives better Damage Reduction? Alteration or Smith and Heavy Armour?
 
I tend to go with Alteration/Bound Weapons for the simple reason of Speed. While you Can use the Steed stone, and weightless perk to offset Heavy Armor's slowing effect, you have to. Also, HA is a slow leveler with Smithing to add a lot of grind, so Alteration/Mystic Binding will also be availible at a much lower level. This leaves more perks available for your other skills. I'd suggest the Lord stone to stack with your Magic Resistance from Breton Blood, and the Alteration perks, since armor is ignored by magic damage. The 50 extra will also stack with Mage Armor. Dual Cast Ebony Flesh instead of Dragonhide, since it lasts twice as long (With stability,) and doesn't take 3 seconds of vulnerability to cast. This won't get you up to the damage cap, but will get you close, as well as the Magic Resistance cap...
 

Streets

The Gentleman Owl
As a Breton, the easiest (no enchantments) way for you to get to the Magic Resist cap of 85% is to: be Breton 25%, Agent of Mara 15%, Lord Stone 25%, Alteration Magic Resist 2/3 (50 Alteration) 20%. That is probably the best reason to go into Alteration, for the MR perks, and then eventually Paralysis.

Armor:

Alteration eventually gives you Dragonhide which hits the cap of 80% physical damage reduction. It takes a while to get there though, and renders the 3/3 Mage Armor perks useless eventually too. Dragonhide takes a while to cast, doesn't last super long (you can get Stability and you can dual cast it also). Before Dragonhide, if you take the Mage Armor perks, your Ebonyflesh will give you 300 armor rating.

Here's something some people don't know. The armor cap is 567 worn armor rating only when you are actually WEARING ARMOR. If you are wearing clothes, the armor cap is actually 667. Each piece of armor gives you a hidden armor bonus of 20, 20, 20, (helmet, boots, gauntlets) and 40 (chest), bringing the effective armor cap to 567 when you wear armor.

This means that 300 Ebonyflesh armor rating is actually 300/667, instead of 300/567. Ebonyflesh only gives you an armor protection of 45%, which is terrible compared to 80%. With the Lord Stone active, you will have 350/667, for 52% reduction.

The answer is, both Alteration and Smithing can give you 80% damage reduction. The Alteration line is more clunky in my opinion, do you skip Mage Armor perks and only have 100 armor all game until you get Dragonhide? Or do you take 3/3 Mage Armor for the mid-game, only to have wasted the perks when you only use Dragonhide later?

You can also combine physical armor rating with Dragonhide (not any Flesh Spells). 80% armor rating, combined with the Dragonhide spell will stack similar to magic/elemental resistances, giving you a physical damage reduction of 96%, which can even further be increased by Block, as well.

Weapons

Mystic Bound Sword is equivalent in damage to an unsmithed Daedric Sword, 14 base damage. If you get your Smithing up to 91, you can create a Daedric Sword, and Smith it to "legendary 1" status, making it's effective base damage 24 instead of 14. This is before any One Handed perks, skill level, or Enchanting effects are applied. Every skill point in One-Handed gives you .5% more damage, so when your One Handed skill is 100, you do 50% more damage. The Bound Sword goes to 21, and the Legendary Sword goes to 36. With 5/5 Armsman, you get 100% more damage, the Bound Sword goes to 42, the Legendary Sword goes to 72. With 160% Fortify One Handed gear, the Bound Sword goes to 109 damage, the Legendary Sword goes to 187. This is excluding any Fortify Smithing potions, or Fortify Smithing enchanted gear. You could purchase a 50% Smithing potion, and find or buy or create 4x25% Smithing gear, to make your Legendary Daedric Sword do an extra base 26 damage, so it starts at 40, instead of 14 or 24 like earlier. That would be "legendary 10" and you would need an effective Smithing skill of 244 to reach. That means in the end-game, you compare a base damage 14 weapon (total damage 109) to a base damage 40 weapon, then add all the Fortify One Handed, Armsman, and 100 One Handed skill damage, giving it a total damage of 416.

If you decide not to take Smithing perks, but still level Smithing up, an Iron Sword when Smithed to Flawless (100 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. An Orcish Sword Smithed to Exquisite (65 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. Skyforge Steel and Elven Swords when Smithed to Superior (31 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. With just the Steel Smithing perk, a Skyforge Steel sword is equal to the Bound Sword at a Smithing level of 22, and surpasses it at 40.

The Bound Sword is great for the early game, it outdamages most other weapons. As you increase your Smithing skill, it becomes weaker in comparison. However, you can easily use the Bound Sword throughout the game, as it still does great damage. It's just that Smithed weapons can become astronomical.

Wow. Why did I write all that!?

TL;DR

You can use Heavy Armor and Smithing or Alteration to get to the Armor Cap, 80% damage reduction. Alteration's will come at the very end of the tree, later game.

You can use Bound Sword or Smithed weapons, Bound does more damage at first, Smithed can probably quadruple the Bound damage by the end-game, but Bound still does enough to play the game with.
 

Twiffle

Well-Known Member
As a Breton, the easiest (no enchantments) way for you to get to the Magic Resist cap of 85% is to: be Breton 25%, Agent of Mara 15%, Lord Stone 25%, Alteration Magic Resist 2/3 (50 Alteration) 20%. That is probably the best reason to go into Alteration, for the MR perks, and then eventually Paralysis.

Armor:

Alteration eventually gives you Dragonhide which hits the cap of 80% physical damage reduction. It takes a while to get there though, and renders the 3/3 Mage Armor perks useless eventually too. Dragonhide takes a while to cast, doesn't last super long (you can get Stability and you can dual cast it also). Before Dragonhide, if you take the Mage Armor perks, your Ebonyflesh will give you 300 armor rating.

Here's something some people don't know. The armor cap is 567 worn armor rating only when you are actually WEARING ARMOR. If you are wearing clothes, the armor cap is actually 667. Each piece of armor gives you a hidden armor bonus of 20, 20, 20, (helmet, boots, gauntlets) and 40 (chest), bringing the effective armor cap to 567 when you wear armor.

This means that 300 Ebonyflesh armor rating is actually 300/667, instead of 300/567. Ebonyflesh only gives you an armor protection of 45%, which is terrible compared to 80%. With the Lord Stone active, you will have 350/667, for 52% reduction.

The answer is, both Alteration and Smithing can give you 80% damage reduction. The Alteration line is more clunky in my opinion, do you skip Mage Armor perks and only have 100 armor all game until you get Dragonhide? Or do you take 3/3 Mage Armor for the mid-game, only to have wasted the perks when you only use Dragonhide later?

You can also combine physical armor rating with Dragonhide (not any Flesh Spells). 80% armor rating, combined with the Dragonhide spell will stack similar to magic/elemental resistances, giving you a physical damage reduction of 96%, which can even further be increased by Block, as well.

Weapons

Mystic Bound Sword is equivalent in damage to an unsmithed Daedric Sword, 14 base damage. If you get your Smithing up to 91, you can create a Daedric Sword, and Smith it to "legendary 1" status, making it's effective base damage 24 instead of 14. This is before any One Handed perks, skill level, or Enchanting effects are applied. Every skill point in One-Handed gives you .5% more damage, so when your One Handed skill is 100, you do 50% more damage. The Bound Sword goes to 21, and the Legendary Sword goes to 36. With 5/5 Armsman, you get 100% more damage, the Bound Sword goes to 42, the Legendary Sword goes to 72. With 160% Fortify One Handed gear, the Bound Sword goes to 109 damage, the Legendary Sword goes to 187. This is excluding any Fortify Smithing potions, or Fortify Smithing enchanted gear. You could purchase a 50% Smithing potion, and find or buy or create 4x25% Smithing gear, to make your Legendary Daedric Sword do an extra base 26 damage, so it starts at 40, instead of 14 or 24 like earlier. That would be "legendary 10" and you would need an effective Smithing skill of 244 to reach. That means in the end-game, you compare a base damage 14 weapon (total damage 109) to a base damage 40 weapon, then add all the Fortify One Handed, Armsman, and 100 One Handed skill damage, giving it a total damage of 416.

If you decide not to take Smithing perks, but still level Smithing up, an Iron Sword when Smithed to Flawless (100 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. An Orcish Sword Smithed to Exquisite (65 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. Skyforge Steel and Elven Swords when Smithed to Superior (31 Smithing, no perk) will be equal to the damage of the Bound Sword. With just the Steel Smithing perk, a Skyforge Steel sword is equal to the Bound Sword at a Smithing level of 22, and surpasses it at 40.

The Bound Sword is great for the early game, it outdamages most other weapons. As you increase your Smithing skill, it becomes weaker in comparison. However, you can easily use the Bound Sword throughout the game, as it still does great damage. It's just that Smithed weapons can become astronomical.

Wow. Why did I write all that!?

TL;DR

You can use Heavy Armor and Smithing or Alteration to get to the Armor Cap, 80% damage reduction. Alteration's will come at the very end of the tree, later game.

You can use Bound Sword or Smithed weapons, Bound does more damage at first, Smithed can probably quadruple the Bound damage by the end-game, but Bound still does enough to play the game with.


iv got a headache now. . . . :D
 

JoeReese

Well-Known Member
When you mention magic resistance, does that cover all magical attacks, including fire, frost, and shock? In other words, if I equipped boots, a shield, and a ring and necklace with magic resistance, would I still need fire/frost/shock resistance items too? I have been a little confused about that since the start. I originally thought magic resistance was only for like vampire powers, but have been wondering.
 

ThaDataSage

New Member
When you mention magic resistance, does that cover all magical attacks, including fire, frost, and shock? In other words, if I equipped boots, a shield, and a ring and necklace with magic resistance, would I still need fire/frost/shock resistance items too? I have been a little confused about that since the start. I originally thought magic resistance was only for like vampire powers, but have been wondering.

Magic resistance is all types of magic. So yes having magic resistance would reduce the damage by fire, frost, and shock.
 
When you mention magic resistance, does that cover all magical attacks, including fire, frost, and shock? In other words, if I equipped boots, a shield, and a ring and necklace with magic resistance, would I still need fire/frost/shock resistance items too? I have been a little confused about that since the start. I originally thought magic resistance was only for like vampire powers, but have been wondering.
Yes, but it caps at 85%. So does Elemental resistance, but as they're counted separately, you can decimate the amount of incoming damage by having both. For instance, if you have 80% MR (Breton, Lord, and MR perks) and Elemental Resistance (Elemental Protection Perk from Block, and Otar) then incoming damage is reduced to 20% of 20%, or 5% gets through. Ouch. None of this takes any Enchantment slots, so you can spend them on something else. You can also stack Alteration spells on capped out armor (Without the Magearmor perks, and yes, _Flesh spells do it too) for nigh invulnerability, but that's a lot of work.

Depending on your playing style, all this protection isn't strictly needed, unless you stand there, and Tank. I don't, so all I need is the minimum to not get 1 shotted, so I can Heal. Then, you can invest more in your Offense, or utility skills like Lockpicking. The way I see it, as long as you aren't getting killed, you've got enough defense, but defense doesn't win fights, it just keeps you from losing. That's why I invest more in Offense first, because that's how you Win. And finally, Stealth can eliminate the need for armor all together. The only creatures it doesn't work on is Dragons, and if you have enough Magical defense, you just stand back, and let them breathe on you...

Breton also has the ability to gain 100% Spell absorbtion for a minute per day. This not only stops all magical attacks (Including disease, and poison) but also refills your Magicka pool. However, it also soaks up your summons, if you do that. This combo can power Destruction, though, and made it possible for me to defeat Alduin single handedly wearing nothing but a loincloth.
 

JoeReese

Well-Known Member
Thank you both. That's good to know. I had done boots, necklace, and ring with fire, frost, and shock. Then, when I could double enchant, I did it so I was doubly protected. (54% each, twice) but that leaves me no slot to muffle my boots. I may go with something like magic resistance / destruction on the ring and necklace, and magic resistance / muffle on the boots. Then I can use my helmet and cuirass for destruction and other magicka boosters and fire spells at-will. :) This could get interesting. Muhahahaha.
 

Pijack

Member
Thanks a lot guys! But I think I'm going with Heavy Armour Smith combo. Special thanks to Streets for the wall of text.
 

Streets

The Gentleman Owl
to Streets for the wall of text.

Haha yeah, my bad. I think I was a bit biased towards Smithing. Everything Psiberzerker said about mobility is definitely true, and 350 armor rating is certainly enough. And Bound Sword's light weight makes you able to perform many power attacks compared to a Daedric Sword's heavy weight. I didn't think of the possibility of keeping Ebonyflesh and 350 AR as your final setup.
 
Haha yeah, my bad. I think I was a bit biased towards Smithing. Everything Psiberzerker said about mobility is definitely true, and 350 armor rating is certainly enough. And Bound Sword's light weight makes you able to perform many power attacks compared to a Daedric Sword's heavy weight. I didn't think of the possibility of keeping Ebonyflesh and 350 AR as your final setup.
Well, that wasn't exactly my point. I can survive with Ebonyflesh, but I have an evasive fighting style. Whether that's Enough-enough for your build depends on whether you're tanking, or using stuff like Critical Charge to hit them first, the run before they recover. Like I was saying, the beauty of that option is from the Perks Alteration gives you, and the damage you can get for very little Magicka with mystic weapons. It's just way cheaper in terms of investment in character development before you actually start playing. (I can do that whole build on the go without crafting anything.) So, the question you can ask yourself to answer your original question is, "How much do I want to prepare to play the game?" If you just want to grab, and go, Alteration/Mystic Binding. If you want the absolute best kit you can get in the game, and are willing to grind for hours to get it, Smith/Alc/Enchant, and Daedric.
 
Um . . . what were you doing with the other hand?
Well, the first time both were casting Lightning Storm after dropping a Scroll of Guardian Circle to heal me while my Spell Absorpion soaked up half of it, and his Breath attacks to power the spell. Later, I refined it to Wall of Frost, and Storms to get it all in below level 10, and stacked the Atronach Stone for 100%. Both times, I managed to win before Parthurnax could react (Therefore single handedly) and the power wore off, so less than a minute total. Also, without the Scroll of Guardian Circle, the only thing in my inventory was the Kell I needed to go back, and get the Dragonrend shout.
E9C4B242CF6912ED2F27A5345E9825004A8E52E5

All this was basically to prove that you don't have to craft a 100% off glitch suit to make Destruction viable on Master difficulty. Unfortunately, the build was so specialized, it couldn't do anything else very well.
 

Silk Zither

Member
Yes, but it caps at 85%...
You can also stack Alteration spells on capped out armor (Without the Magearmor perks, and yes, _Flesh spells do it too) for nigh invulnerability, but that's a lot of work.


Wait, let me get this straight. Streets said there is a way to raise the damage resistance cap even higher (to 96%) by combining physical armor with alteration spell?

I'm playing a Breton nightblade (lvl 17) My mind was torn over whether I should take light armor and smithing or alteration for defense. I chose light armor because it can constantly protect me, which is useful during surprise attacks. Smithing can also benefit a physical blade, which I always carry if I need to pull out a weapon instantly, as conjured ones take time. Alteration spell, on the other hand, is only temporary protection and can alert enemies when cast, which may be a problem early game, before you get the silent casting perk. But if combining the two will raise the damage resistance cap even higher later game, then I'm taking aboard both!! That way I can face a two-handed axe wielding bandit chief like a man!
 
Wait, let me get this straight. Streets said there is a way to raise the damage resistance cap even higher (to 96%) by combining physical armor with alteration spell?

I'm playing a Breton nightblade (lvl 17) My mind was torn over whether I should take light armor and smithing or alteration for defense. I chose light armor because it can constantly protect me, which is useful during surprise attacks. Smithing can also benefit a physical blade, which I always carry if I need to pull out a weapon instantly, as conjured ones take time. Alteration spell, on the other hand, is only temporary protection and can alert enemies when cast, which may be a problem early game, before you get the silent casting perk. But if combining the two will raise the damage resistance cap even higher later game, then I'm taking aboard both!! That way I can face a two-handed axe wielding bandit chief like a man!
With a Nightblade, your primary defense is Stealth, and Illusion. Definitely Light Armor, because that's the 2 pre-enchanted Armor sets, the Nightingale, and Shrouded ones, respectively. If you want to tank, don't be a Nightblade, the way to take said Battleaxe swinging Bandit Chief is either from behind, a distance, or with something like Calm so he just looks at you stupidly while you stab him. That's the thing about multiclass characters, they can beat any specialist by not playing their game. The dumbest thing you can do as a generalist, like a Nightblade, is to take on a melee specialist in hand to hand, it's his specialty. Likewise, you don't want to get in a firefight with a Wizard, nor a shooting match with an Archer.
 

Silk Zither

Member
With a Nightblade, your primary defense is Stealth, and Illusion. Definitely Light Armor, because that's the 2 pre-enchanted Armor sets, the Nightingale, and Shrouded ones, respectively. If you want to tank, don't be a Nightblade, the way to take said Battleaxe swinging Bandit Chief is either from behind, a distance, or with something like Calm so he just looks at you stupidly while you stab him. That's the thing about multiclass characters, they can beat any specialist by not playing their game. The dumbest thing you can do as a generalist, like a Nightblade, is to take on a melee specialist in hand to hand, it's his specialty. Likewise, you don't want to get in a firefight with a Wizard, nor a shooting match with an Archer.

True... Though occasionally I still find it thrilling to rush into the heat of a battle :D
My last two builds (also my first two) were a tank and archer, however they both got boring pretty quickly. Also, I couldn't stand not using any of the magic schools, so I decided to try out a spellblade or nightblade. So far, it's a lot more fun than a pure warrior. So I think I'll finish the game for the first time with this build :)

At the moment I'm leveling one-handed, illusion, conjuration and destruction. So far, all very fun spells to play with. When I feel I'm powerful enough to not worry about skill spreads, I might do some smithing, alchemy and enchants. What do you think? Suggestions?
 

Silk Zither

Member
With a Nightblade, your primary defense is Stealth, and Illusion. Definitely Light Armor, because that's the 2 pre-enchanted Armor sets, the Nightingale, and Shrouded ones, respectively. If you want to tank, don't be a Nightblade, the way to take said Battleaxe swinging Bandit Chief is either from behind, a distance, or with something like Calm so he just looks at you stupidly while you stab him. That's the thing about multiclass characters, they can beat any specialist by not playing their game. The dumbest thing you can do as a generalist, like a Nightblade, is to take on a melee specialist in hand to hand, it's his specialty. Likewise, you don't want to get in a firefight with a Wizard, nor a shooting match with an Archer.

Btw, is it possible to raise the magic resistance cap even further? Say, also 96%?

Also, do elemental resistance potions and magical resistance potions stack? Say I drank a fire resistance potion that offers 25% resistance to fire, and also drank a 10% magical resistance potion. Does that give me 35% fire resistance? And since I'm a Breton with innate 25% resistance to magic, does that give me a total of 60% resistance to fire?
 

Recent chat visitors

Latest posts

Top