Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Docta Corvina said:

I'm also unsure of your point about how the Dunmer were always treated badly in Windhelm even when the Empire was in power - which would apparently give Ulfric (and the Stormcloak government) a free pass. As I've said before, he may not have started the policy, but he hasn't lifted a finger to change it in all these years, so he's a party to it. It certainly doesn't seem to bother him enough to care about changing it. When the Empire wins, Brunwulf sets about initiating change, but slowly. Cautiously. Several NPCs (Dunmer and non) have optimistic and grateful things to say about his efforts.

I would have to read up more extensively on Windhelm city history and lore, but do we know for sure how long ago after arriving that the Dunmer were confined to the slums and refused broader opportunities? Rolff makes it sound like the king at the time invited them in in a friendly and sympathetic fashion (which could just be Rolff's own bitter slant), but I haven't seen or heard much about the nature of a timeline of the segregationist policy. Maybe I need to speak with Ambarys more as well, but I'd be curious to find out any sort of tangible date for when everything started to deteriorate.

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The argument was that it was Ulfric Stormcloak that started the policy of segregation against the Dunmer, but I argue that it wasn't started with him.

I don't know the date, but I think that it does predate Ulfric's time. Considering that the Dunmer life-span is about 200 years, most of the Dunmer would be considerably older than the Nords. I haven't heard any of them say "It was better before Ulfric", and it seems to me that it's always been like that, as long as they've been around. And considering that before Ulfric was around the Stormcloaks weren't even invented yet, it is reasonably safe to say that Windhelm had racial segregation when Windhelm was under Imperial control.

But considering the Jarls are quite independent, I'm not going to blame the Empire for it, rather Ulfric's predecessors, coupled with tensions between three different but equally proud and stubborn that have been forced to live together.

azali100 said:

You know who else refused to surrender? Japan. Twice. Do you know how that worked out for them?

Nukes n' plops

What is veiwed as a "pre-emptive strike" from one side, will be veiwed as a betrayal from everyone else. Even if other provinces/nations agree with the attack, it will still undermine the Empire's trust in the future. The best course of action is to keep their eyes open and be ready when the time comes.

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Well at least you've acknowledged the White-Gold Concordat for what it is: A surrender to the Dominion. The Empire got nothing out of it other than Cyrodiil not being completely destroyed.

Well I can agree that the Empire is in between a rock and a hard place. They can either strike now and most likely get defeated. Or they can wait until the Thalmor attack and most likely get defeated. But this talk of "biding time to wait for the moment to strike" is nonsense. The Empire's only getting weaker, and constantly being watched by the bloody Justicars and Ambassadors.

Why can't some people just admit that it's more appealing to them to play as the rebels with the cool name ?

feliciano182 said:

You sure talk a lot about "not surrendering" and "bending to the whim" for a guy who just plays videogames, even if you actually were a soldier who believed fighting 'till the dreary end was the right thing, what makes you think one individual (Ulfric) has the right to make that choice for everyone ? Just because he "feels" he's the rightful ruler of a land ? Just because he murders a kid to "prove a point" ? Get real friend.

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I think that's the third time you've made assumptions about me personally. Dude, you don't fluffing know me so stop that crap to try to boost your arguments. Stick to the game and stop with this plops.

feliciano182 said:

Yeah, you're full of crap.

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And that's pretty damn childish.

I'm not sure where all this comes from. Does it bother you that other people interpret the same thing differently to you?

theoperation said:

And that's pretty damn childish.

I'm not sure where all this comes from. Does it bother you that other people interpret the same thing differently to you?

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Nope, you are simply full of crap.

It's not the idea that somebody might support The Stormcloaks, it's the level of rationalization some people get to when they do, we've told you countless times that Ulfric and his followers are xenophobes, that The Grey Quarter and The Docks demonstrate the lack of care and attention they give to non-nords, and yet you come up with BS like "Ulfric didn't start that, therefore, he's innocent of all racist claims!".

feliciano182 said:

Nope, you are simply full of crap.

It's not the idea that somebody might support The Stormcloaks, it's the level of rationalization some people get to when they do, we've told you countless times that Ulfric and his followers are xenophobes, that The Grey Quarter and The Docks demonstrate the lack of care and attention they give to non-nords, and yet you come up with BS like "Ulfric didn't start that, therefore, he's innocent of all racist claims!".

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But IS Ulfric really racist? OR is he just too busy trying to free Skyrim form, in his mind, a weak and corrupt empire? I think theoperation needs more evidence than "He keeps racist policies going, so he is racist" that you and others spew. I will agree that there are, more than likely, some Stormcloak soldiers that are xenophobic.

Jeremius said:

But IS Ulfric really racist? OR is he just too busy trying to free Skyrim form, in his mind, a weak and corrupt empire?

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Doesn't. Matter.

A Jarl's essential, encompassing duty is to provide safety and support to his citizens.

Regardless of his cause, or the justification for it, he is failing in his obligations as a Jarl, partially I might add, since the nord citizens have nothing to complain about, it's only when it's about dunmer and argonian when he just "doesn't have the time", if it was really a matter of not being able to attend to his duties, then surely the entirety of Windhelm would be in an unpleasent state.

theoperation said:

I think theoperation needs more evidence than "He keeps racist policies going, so he is racist" that you and others spew. I will agree that there are, more than likely, some Stormcloak soldiers that are xenophobic.

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........................................

How old are you people ?

feliciano182 said:

Doesn't. Matter.

A Jarl's essential, encompassing duty is to provide safety and support to his citizens.

Regardless of his cause, or the justification for it, he is failing in his obligations as a Jarl, partially I might add, since the nord citizens have nothing to complain about, it's only when it's about dunmer and argonian when he just "doesn't have the time", if it was really a matter of not being able to attend to his duties, then surely the entirety of Windhelm would be in an unpleasent state.




........................................

How old are you people ?

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Just because he fails in his duty as Jarl does not mean he is racist or that he is the bad choice for Skyrim when the Thalmor come to kill humanity. In peace, I would agree with you, but we all know war is coming, and Elisif may not have the knowledge to lead Skyrim in that war. Having her in charge would be bad for Skyrim, as her inexperience makes her less likely to make competent decisions on her own, instead relying solely on her "Advisors" to make the decision.

What do you guys think the Dominion are doing while the empire is regaining strength? Nobody even mentions this. Do you honestly believe that this is a good thing that the Thalmor is allowing the Empire to regain their strength for the next war? Do you think that their not aware of what the Empire has in store for them once the war with the Stormcloaks are over with?

The Thalmor are like cats. They play with their prey first before they go for the fatal kill. Just as I see when my neighbors cat hunts down the brown anole around my house. She grabs them by her teeth, and takes them to an open area where she begins to taunt them by patting her paws over their bodies scaring the plops outta them. At times she lets them escape, but not for long. Eventually she gets tired of playing and goes for the kill by chewing on their heads, and eventually eats the traumatized lizard.

Jeremius said:

Just because he fails in his duty as Jarl does not mean he is racist or that he is the bad choice for Skyrim when the Thalmor come to kill humanity.

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First, he fails in his duties towards specific racial groups in the city he rules, he puts forth excuses that "the war is keeping him busy", whereas the other nord citizens receive rights and protection without any sort of complaint, simple logic dictates one simple conclusion, which starts with an "r" and ends with "acism".

Second, he's an idiot, a war criminal, a murderer, and an ego-maniac, apart from Sidgeir (and that may the lowest of the low) there's not a worse choice for High King in all of Skyrim.

Jeremius said:

In peace, I would agree with you, but we all know war is coming, and Elisif may not have the knowledge to lead Skyrim in that war. Having her in charge would be bad for the war, might as well eliminate the High King/Queen position and have the emperor rule all of Tamriel directly.

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This argument is asinine, Elisif is not going to lead the damn Empire and it's provinces by herself.

feliciano182 said:

First, he fails in his duties towards specific racial groups in the city he rules, he puts forth excuses that "the war is keeping him busy", whereas the other nord citizens receive rights and protection without any sort of complaint, simple logic dictates one simple conclusion, which starts with an "r" and ends with "acism".

Second, he's an idiot, a war criminal, a murderer, and an ego-maniac, apart from Sidgeir (and that may the lowest of the low) there's not a worse choice for High King in all of Skyrim.



This argument is asinine, Elisif is not going to lead the damn Empire and it's provinces by herself.

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When it comes to war, who would you rather lead a province of warriors: a woman who is inexperienced in war and ruling in general? OR a ruler who has been though that kind of hell?

And Jeremius is right about Elisif. Her Inexperience, in my book, makes her ineligible to rule Skyrim. Granted shes hot as hell, but shes dumb as a door knob. She depends others to do her work, and that's not good leadership.

Perhaps if she was replaced with with someone who has a lot more experience under their belt.... lets just say the replacement Jarl of Dawnstar, Brina Merilis, a retired Legion legate who fought in the Great war, then I would reconsider supporting the Empire because at least I know for sure that Skyrim would be in good shape after the Civil war with someone, who has experience under her belt, ruling the country.

Jeremius said:

When it comes to war, who would you rather lead a province of warriors: a woman who is inexperienced in war and ruling in general? OR a ruler who has been though that kind of hell?

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See here is your problem. Thinking in the short term. Just like Ulfric. The war will be temporary, Elsif has the Generals to help her then. What about after the war? Elsif's experience doesn't matter. No, experience is something you can gain over time. But can Ulfric change his old ways?

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Jeremius said:

When it comes to war, who would you rather lead a province of warriors: a woman who is inexperienced in war and ruling in general? OR a ruler who has been though that kind of hell?

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Elisif is not going to lead the damn Empire and it's provinces by herself, repetition again *sigh*

Naturally, if The Thalmor come (after Imperial victory in Skyrim) then they would fight as a single unit under the command from the Emperor and it's generals, the entire war won't be reduced to Elisif's role as High Queen.

azali100 said:

See here is your problem. Thinking in the short term. Just like Ulfric. The war will be temporary, Elsif has the Generals to help her then. What about after the war? Elsif's experience doesn't matter. No, experience is something you can gain over time. But can Ulfric change his old ways?

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

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Perhaps, perhaps not. Killing him because of his past actions prevents a chance for him to redeem himself and you become him.

feliciano182 said:

Elisif is not going to lead the damn Empire and it's provinces by herself, repetition again *sigh*

Naturally, if The Thalmor come (after Imperial victory in Skyrim) then they would fight as a single unit under the command from the Emperor and it's generals, the entire war won't be reduced to Elisif's role as High Queen.

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Aaand, you are putting words into my posts again. I never said she would be leading the war herself. Look at WWII that was an alliance of nations. Same can apply here. What would Elisif's contribution to the war be? with Imperial military Advisors, what they tell her that should be. Ulfric would know exactly what is needed for the war. Listen to MR.P (Greybeard leader) IS it better to be born good (Elisif) or to overcome your evil urges (a redeemed Ulfric that could happen in the future)?

theoperation said:

The argument was that it was Ulfric Stormcloak that started the policy of segregation against the Dunmer, but I argue that it wasn't started with him.

I don't know the date, but I think that it does predate Ulfric's time. Considering that the Dunmer life-span is about 200 years, most of the Dunmer would be considerably older than the Nords. I haven't heard any of them say "It was better before Ulfric", and it seems to me that it's always been like that, as long as they've been around. And considering that before Ulfric was around the Stormcloaks weren't even invented yet, it is reasonably safe to say that Windhelm had racial segregation when Windhelm was under Imperial control.

But considering the Jarls are quite independent, I'm not going to blame the Empire for it, rather Ulfric's predecessors, coupled with tensions between three different but equally proud and stubborn that have been forced to live together.

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Actually, whether you like his attitude or not, Ambarys says that things have been a lot worse in the city since Ulfric took over as Jarl. I suppose you can take that as you like, but he is at least one who indicates that the problem has not always been as bad as it is.

I agree that it's been a long-festering, systemic problem in Windhelm. But I would be curious to know when the policy of segregation was implemented formally. Maybe it doesn't even really matter in the end, but it's a bullet point on the timeline I'd like to see.

Jeremius said:

But IS Ulfric really racist? OR is he just too busy trying to free Skyrim form, in his mind, a weak and corrupt empire? I think theoperation needs more evidence than "He keeps racist policies going, so he is racist" that you and others spew. I will agree that there are, more than likely, some Stormcloak soldiers that are xenophobic.

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Spewing, eh? And here I thought I was being largely considerate and civil in my posts.

I personally have not outright claimed that Ulfric is definitely a racist. And to be honest, he doesn't even need to be one to be considered unfit to be Jarl, let alone High King in my opinion - though if the dialogue exists and just needs to be uncovered, it also renders him invalid as a legitimate leader. You can try to dismiss it all you want as a pointless argument or one not understanding of war, etc. But the fact that he is so ragingly apathetic (at best) toward all of those he sees as peripheral (I'm being kind here) to his desires and ambitions and day to day concerns is troubling and damning.

Docta Corvina said:

Spewing, eh? And here I thought I was being largely considerate and civil in my posts.

I personally have not outright claimed that Ulfric is definitely a racist. And to be honest, he doesn't even need to be one to be considered unfit to be Jarl, let alone High King in my opinion - though if the dialogue exists and just needs to be uncovered, it also renders him invalid as a legitimate leader. You can try to dismiss it all you want as a pointless argument or one not understanding of war, etc. But the fact that he is so ragingly apathetic (at best) toward all of those he sees as peripheral (I'm being kind here) to his desires and ambitions and day to day concerns is troubling and damning.

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Let be fair in this. Theirs no perfect Jarl in Skyrim. Not even everyone's favorite Jarl in Whiterun.

If you think Ulfric is bad lets check out the other jarls in Skyrim

Jarls and the replacements who supports and are supported by the empire that are unfit to be Jarl.

Falkreath Hold: Siddgeir (Do I need to explain what a fop this turd is?)
The Reach: Igmund (I don't need to explain why hes unfit to be jarl base on his history with Ulfric)
The Rift Maven Black-Briar (For being involved in the thieves guild, and essentially making everyone in Riften miserable, and unhappy. She also has connections with the Dark Brotherhood and not afraid to use their service.)
Hjaalmarch: Idgrod Ravencrone (When you first enter Morthal you immediately see angry townsfolk's that are showing their anger at the Jarl (well not in direct contact with her that is) for not fulfilling her duties as Jarl. They even go as far as to be skeptical regarding to her leadership. Even her bodyguard, Gorm has doubts regarding to her leadership, and even goes as far as to send the dragonborn to castle dour to give a concern note to Captain Aldis.

Jarl who supports and are supported by the Stormcloak that are unfit to be Jarl.

The pale: Skald (Making his poor court wizard life a living hell by demanding that she participate in the war in spite of her not wanting to fight. His strong obsession with Ulfric and his war puts his entire hold in jeopardy, since he wants most of his guards to participate in the war leaving the pale open for bandits,etc.
Hjaalmarch: Sorli the Builder (Shes a female version of Siddgeir. These 2 make a perfect couple)
Winterhold: Korir (His obnoxious obsession with the college is getting ridiculous. Hes brainwashing his kid to think that all mages are bad, and in fact that he allows his son to play such racist game "hunt the elf" with his friend. I want to punch this fops lip until it bleeds)
The Rift: Laila Law-Giver (Shes Mavens bottom bitch, and does everything that she tells her.)

The only person that I can't find anything negative about is Brina Merilis. In fact she startled her new court wizard (the one Skald pesters all the time) by asking her if she'll help by healing the injured instead of spreading blood.

Raijin said:

Let be fair in this. Theirs no perfect Jarl in Skyrim. Not even everyone's favorite Jarl in Whiterun.

If you think Ulfric is bad lets check out the other jarls in Skyrim

Jarls and the replacements who supports and are supported by the empire that are unfit to be Jarl.

Falkreath Hold: Siddgeir (Do I need to explain what a fop this turd is?)
The Reach: Igmund (I don't need to explain why hes unfit to be jarl base on his history with Ulfric)
The Rift Maven Black-Briar (For being involved in the thieves guild, and essentially making everyone in Riften miserable, and unhappy. She also has connections with the Dark Brotherhood and not afraid to use their service.)
Hjaalmarch: Idgrod Ravencrone (When you first enter Morthal you immediately see angry townsfolk's that are showing their anger at the Jarl (well not in direct contact with her that is) for not fulfilling her duties as Jarl. They even go as far as to be skeptical regarding to her leadership. Even her bodyguard, Gorm has doubts regarding to her leadership, and even goes as far as to send the dragonborn to castle dour to give a concern note to Captain Aldis.

Jarl who supports and are supported by the Stormcloak that are unfit to be Jarl.

The pale: Skald (Making his poor court wizard life a living hell by demanding that she participate in the war in spite of her not wanting to fight. His strong obsession with Ulfric and his war puts his entire hold in jeopardy, since he wants most of his guards to participate in the war leaving the pale open for bandits,etc.
Hjaalmarch: Sorli the Builder (Shes a female version of Siddgeir. These 2 make a perfect couple)
Winterhold: Korir (His obnoxious obsession with the college is getting ridiculous. Hes brainwashing his kid to think that all mages are bad, and in fact that he allows his son to play such racist game "hunt the elf" with his friend. I want to punch this fops lip until it bleeds)
The Rift: Laila Law-Giver (Shes Mavens bottom bitch, and does everything that she tells her.)

The only person that I can't find anything negative about is Brina Merilis. In fact she startled her new court wizard (the one Skald pesters all the time) by asking her if she'll help by healing the injured instead of spreading blood.

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I never argued that a "perfect Jarl" exists in this game world - or real life, for that matter, as far as leaders go. And I know you mightily disagree, but I think Balgruuf is as close to perfect as one can get in this game when it comes to local rulers. For the record, several of the Jarls you listed (including those who took power after an Imperial win) are ones I also take issue with. Siddgeir can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care.

But comparatively, Ulfric looks to me to be among the worst of the bunch. Yeah, some of the other Jarls are jackasses with attitudes (ie. Skald and Siddgeir). But Windhelm, as has been shown repeatedly, is something of a unique situation in Skyrim. There are of course many reasons for this (its role as the seat of the rebellion, its racial disparities, etc.), but the fact is that Ulfric has his own priorities that do not include all in his Hold - this is testimony from NPCs that is never (at least to my knowledge) refuted by any other and thus I'm inclined to believe that it's the case based also on Ulfric's own visible actions and attitude. When it's felt that Riverwood is threatened, there is never any quibbling or questioning on Balgruuf's part as to whether he should care and intervene. The races of the people affected are not an issue before he sends aid. As much as you may not like Balgruuf, he certainly has that to his credit. And this marks him in stark contrast to Ulfric.

And I know it's a broken record by now, but it still remains a worthy point: Ulfric also is party to segregationist policies that he has given no indication of planning or wanting to change in all of the years that he has been Jarl. And that is one of the most damning things about his character, particularly in a ruling capacity. I am aware of no other city that has racial policies as strident as those in Windhelm - if I'm overlooking one, please inform me. Furthermore, if one simply brushes it off as his "being busy with the war", that is, to me, even more of an indicator that he's not such a great, legitimate leader. If he is unwilling to perform the most elementary functions of Jarldom (whatever the reason(s) is/are), then perhaps he shouldn't have the title.

Mind you, this in no way means that I think all of the other Jarls are perfect saints. I would never argue that. But I clearly and unequivocally see Ulfric as one of the worst.