J
Jeremius
Guest
Morality-wise then, Both sides are both evil and good in their own ways and the war is meaningless.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Morality-wise then, Both sides are both evil and good in their own ways and the war is meaningless.
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant, somebody's gotta win it in the end.
Solus
Member
The Thalmor will win.
J
Jeremius
Guest
don't care when a dragon, which showed up AFTER the war was already started, is about to eat the world. (bold is also for you Crooksin)
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
That's a possibility I've been seriously considering, a permanent change in the elder scrolls Status Quo.
J
Jeremius
Guest
lol, that is all I have to say on this. But, like I said before, in the end, when the Great War round 2 starts up, every human race will be involved, no matter the ruler, Empire or Rebel leader.
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
Indeed, however, if Bethesda truly went for the pragmatical angle, consumer satisfaction be damned, then The Stormcloaks would lose
theoperation
Hero of Jorvasskr
If that is true then why not the same prejudice against the Argonians, who are also considered among the beast races? Windhelm is the only city that seems to have segregation against them, and even then it seems to be mainly because of the Shatter-Shields wanting cheap labour.
Well I get that in medieval times that there wasn't the same methods of justice that we have today. I do not like them, but I do not fault the Empire for this. What I fault them for is accepting defeat, selling out the provinces and playing right into the hands of the Thalmor just to buy them some time, only to wait for the Thalmor to finally come and finish them off once and for all.
The Stormcloaks may be in support of traditional Nord values beliefs, but they are by no means fascist. I've seen no evidence of Ulfric wanting to rule Skyrim like a tyrant, no real hard evidence of setting up a system of racial segregation. (And before you say anything, the Dunmer have always been treated poorly in Windhelm even when the Empire was in control). The worst I could call them is conservative, but absolutely not fascist.
If you want Ultra-right wing then look to the Thalmor. Then look at the spineless liberals who bend to the whim of the Thalmor, and it's the Empire. I'd take conservatives who stand up to fascists than liberals who do not any day.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Oh it's hard for the Dunmer and Argonians for sure, but you can't ignore Belyn's point that whining about it won't actually solve anything. Hard work might.
So is Ambarys
Since when was the civil war xenophobically grounded? Is it xenophobic to fight for the right to practise your religion? Is it xenophobic to fight against the Thalmor and all who support them? And until the Empire actually begins to stand up against the Thalmor than give them everything they want, then they are Thalmor supporters. Some of the Stormcloak soldiers are relatives of their officials are very racist, but the war is not a war of racism.
The Empire once offered all those things you mentioned, but those days are long gone. There are no protections, support or rights for the Talos-worshipping Nords of Skyrim. There's even less protection for the Redguards of Hammerfell, who were just handed over. There's no way the Redguards will forgive the Empire for that anytime soon, so they're destroying the unity as well.
What are you talking about dude?
The WGC was designed to tear apart the Empire. Sure hindsight's nice but what I'm saying is that the Emperor lacked foresight when he signed the treaty. Also he lacked foresight and a decent military intelligence system to not see the Thalmor were as weak as the empire, and they could have gotten a lot more out of them. In fact, the Empire got absolutely nothing out of it other than just an end to the war.
The argonians and dunmer were like that before Ulfric's time. They weren't all running around happy then as soon as Ulfric takes charge they're whacked in the Grey Quarter. So even when the Empire was in charge things were bad for them.
Well the British Empire were severely out-numbered and out-gunned. The only things that saved them was the English channel, superior military intelligence and the invention of radar. But Churchill was never going to surrender no matter how bad things got. He even carried a gun with him at all times just in case his home was invaded. He would've rather died than surrendered to the Nazis.
Now you can say that about Ulfric, but can you say that about the Emperor?
Fair enough, but my argument is based around that the WGC was playing into the Thalmor's hands and would lead to the destruction of the Empire. Titus Mede effectively had no choice but to get a better deal in negotiations or fight back.
So? Half the legion just joined because they wanted to "see the world". The only half-decent reason I've heard is that they don't like that the war and want to see Skyrim whole again. Which is what the Stormcloaks would also do if they won.
I'm not going to go into too much detail as I don't have much time, but the Thalmor dossier was probably the thing that made me hesitate before joining the Stormcloaks. But then finding out he was tortured and led to believe the information he gave led to the defeat of the Imperial City, well that is why he was listed as an asset. He's also listed as an uncooperative one. And his actions seem to be against Thalmor interests.
And sometimes a pre-emptive strike is the best way to deal with evil regimes. Because you know they won't stop until they rule the world. Fight the battle on your terms, not theirs.
theoperation
Hero of Jorvasskr
If that is true then why not the same prejudice against the Argonians, who are also considered among the beast races? Windhelm is the only city that seems to have segregation against them, and even then it seems to be mainly because of the Shatter-Shields wanting cheap labour.
Well I get that in medieval times that there wasn't the same methods of justice that we have today. I do not like them, but I do not fault the Empire for this. What I fault them for is accepting defeat, selling out the provinces and playing right into the hands of the Thalmor just to buy them some time, only to wait for the Thalmor to finally come and finish them off once and for all.
The Stormcloaks may be in support of traditional Nord values beliefs, but they are by no means fascist. I've seen no evidence of Ulfric wanting to rule Skyrim like a tyrant, no real hard evidence of setting up a system of racial segregation. (And before you say anything, the Dunmer have always been treated poorly in Windhelm even when the Empire was in control). The worst I could call them is conservative, but absolutely not fascist.
If you want Ultra-right wing then look to the Thalmor. Then look at the spineless liberals who bend to the whim of the Thalmor, and it's the Empire. I'd take conservatives who stand up to fascists than liberals who do not any day.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Oh it's hard for the Dunmer and Argonians for sure, but you can't ignore Belyn's point that whining about it won't actually solve anything. Hard work might.
So is Ambarys
Since when was the civil war xenophobically grounded? Is it xenophobic to fight for the right to practise your religion? Is it xenophobic to fight against the Thalmor and all who support them? And until the Empire actually begins to stand up against the Thalmor than give them everything they want, then they are Thalmor supporters. Some of the Stormcloak soldiers are relatives of their officials are very racist, but the war is not a war of racism.
The Empire once offered all those things you mentioned, but those days are long gone. There are no protections, support or rights for the Talos-worshipping Nords of Skyrim. There's even less protection for the Redguards of Hammerfell, who were just handed over. There's no way the Redguards will forgive the Empire for that anytime soon, so they're destroying the unity as well.
What are you talking about dude?
The WGC was designed to tear apart the Empire. Sure hindsight's nice but what I'm saying is that the Emperor lacked foresight when he signed the treaty. Also he lacked foresight and a decent military intelligence system to not see the Thalmor were as weak as the empire, and they could have gotten a lot more out of them. In fact, the Empire got absolutely nothing out of it other than just an end to the war.
The argonians and dunmer were like that before Ulfric's time. They weren't all running around happy then as soon as Ulfric takes charge they're whacked in the Grey Quarter. So even when the Empire was in charge things were bad for them.
Well the British Empire were severely out-numbered and out-gunned. The only things that saved them was the English channel, superior military intelligence and the invention of radar. But Churchill was never going to surrender no matter how bad things got. He even carried a gun with him at all times just in case his home was invaded. He would've rather died than surrendered to the Nazis.
Now you can say that about Ulfric, but can you say that about the Emperor?
Fair enough, but my argument is based around that the WGC was playing into the Thalmor's hands and would lead to the destruction of the Empire. Titus Mede effectively had no choice but to get a better deal in negotiations or fight back.
So? Half the legion just joined because they wanted to "see the world". The only half-decent reason I've heard is that they don't like that the war and want to see Skyrim whole again. Which is what the Stormcloaks would also do if they won.
I'm not going to go into too much detail as I don't have much time, but the Thalmor dossier was probably the thing that made me hesitate before joining the Stormcloaks. But then finding out he was tortured and led to believe the information he gave led to the defeat of the Imperial City, well that is why he was listed as an asset. He's also listed as an uncooperative one. And his actions seem to be against Thalmor interests.
And sometimes a pre-emptive strike is the best way to deal with evil regimes. Because you know they won't stop until they rule the world. Fight the battle on your terms, not theirs.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
If this is true (I'd have to double check the situation with every hold), I don't think it really reflects in Windhelm's favor that, as you pointed out here, it seems to be the only one with an active race-based segregationist policy against the Argonians. If anything, it just goes to further place it in the odd column when it comes to Skyrim and race relations. It's something else to strongly indicate that Windhelm has a problem in that regard. It also goes to demonstrate how the Holds are governed in a more independent capacity than some people give them credit for - this, in tandem with Skyrim being truly and formally part of the Empire.
I'm also unsure of your point about how the Dunmer were always treated badly in Windhelm even when the Empire was in power - which would apparently give Ulfric (and the Stormcloak government) a free pass. As I've said before, he may not have started the policy, but he hasn't lifted a finger to change it in all these years, so he's a party to it. It certainly doesn't seem to bother him enough to care about changing it. When the Empire wins, Brunwulf sets about initiating change, but slowly. Cautiously. Several NPCs (Dunmer and non) have optimistic and grateful things to say about his efforts.
I would have to read up more extensively on Windhelm city history and lore, but do we know for sure how long ago after arriving that the Dunmer were confined to the slums and refused broader opportunities? Rolff makes it sound like the king at the time invited them in in a friendly and sympathetic fashion (which could just be Rolff's own bitter slant), but I haven't seen or heard much about the nature of a timeline of the segregationist policy. Maybe I need to speak with Ambarys more as well, but I'd be curious to find out any sort of tangible date for when everything started to deteriorate.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Since when is anything Tangible at this point? It is now talking about Morality of both sides, last I knew.
azali100
Active Member
Where do you people get this idea that the elves don't work?
That may have something to do with the fact that the Thalmor had reduced the Imperial intelligence agency to a few hundred severed heads in an ox cart prior to the war....
You have to realize that as a province, Skyrim has a degree of autonomy as long as they follow Imperial Law and provide taxes and soldiers to the Capital. The blame for policies in a city in Skyrim is on the Jarl and the Jarl only. Even if the policies were put in place by a previous Jarl, Ulfric is still to blame for continuing them. Notice how when Brunwulf Freewinter begins to change them when he takes Ulfric's place.
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstien
You know who else refused to surrender? Japan. Twice. Do you know how that worked out for them?
What is veiwed as a "pre-emptive strike" from one side, will be veiwed as a betrayal from everyone else. Even if other provinces/nations agree with the attack, it will still undermine the Empire's trust in the future. The best course of action is to keep their eyes open and be ready when the time comes.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Oh come on now, Jeremius...do I really need to preface everything I say here in some fashion? In this case, with "In the context of game lore and established history, tangible..."
Seriously. I'm an historian. I like to work with dates, wherever possible. I don't think that has to be at all odds with the morality argument. TheOperation brought up the policy being a long-standing one and I am genuinely curious just how long it has been. I don't see how that's irrelevant to the overall discussion.
Really, until myself or others start going off about the ramifications of Honey Boo Boo on the civil war, I think we're safe to continue discussing.
JClarke1953
Well-Known Member
Well, after being a Stormcloak, and seeing how hard, a bit vicious, and prejudice Ulric really is, I wonder. The Imperial's are working with the Thrallmor (which leads me to wonder what else is up their sleeves), and are also denying freedom of worship (Talos). So either or, neither is a good choice in the long run. It's like most election's, one has to choose what one believes is the lesser of two evil's.
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
Just because the Empire has signed a Treaty with the Dominion does not mean they are working together. The Empire is biding it's time, waiting for the right moment to strike.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
What Ricardo said. I myself have spoken to no Imperial or Imperial sympathizer who likes the Thalmor. Quite the contrary. Most are happy to muse about their eventual defeat.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Ricardo Irving and Docta Corvina, in my personal Opinion, it seems like the Thalmor are the ones biding their time and using the discontent of some Nords in Skyrim to weaken the empire further for ITS (The Empire's) eventual defeat, from my perspective, that is.
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
No plops Sherlock. It's stated in the game that the Thalmor would rather the Empire lose the Civil War if the war couldn't be belonged anymore.
J
Jeremius
Guest
It is also true that they do not want the Stormcloaks to win, so the more they can weaken the empire the better their chances, but the empire does not seem reluctant to fight a rebellion, which is not biding it's time. Plus, doesn't the White-Gold Concordant give them the power to oversee the empire? Are they actually building up some kind of military outside of a guard force?
feliciano182
Well-Known Member
Docta Corvina put it better than I would.
First, they didn't accept defeat, they signed a treaty that saved lives all across Tamriel, Skyrim included, sure, Hammerfell got the short end of the stick, but the rest of Tamriel would've been razed if hostilities did not stop, it certainly was not an easy choice, but it was not without merits.
Second, the part about buying time is for The Empire, not for The Thalmor, if they "waited", then The Empire could regain it's strength and solidify their position, of course, that plan almost went to hell because The Stormcloaks decided helping The Thalmor was the rational choice.
I really didn't say they were fascists, but now that you mention it, Galmar Stone-Fist does say quite often that anyone who supports The Empire deserves to die.
He doesn't have to be a tyrant to be a terrible choice for Skyrim, he's a moron on an ego-trip doing the Thalmor's fighting for them. Also friend, I feel quite tired of pointing at The Grey Quarter and The Docks while you keep denying that as evidence, I mean, we can have our opinions in this discussion, just not about the facts, and the facts are pretty damn clear:
Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak rules Windhelm.
A Jarl's duty is to safeguard the well-being of his citizens.
Ulfric fails, quite miserably, in doing so.
Period.
You sure talk a lot about "not surrendering" and "bending to the whim" for a guy who just plays videogames, even if you actually were a soldier who believed fighting 'till the dreary end was the right thing, what makes you think one individual (Ulfric) has the right to make that choice for everyone ? Just because he "feels" he's the rightful ruler of a land ? Just because he murders a kid to "prove a point" ? Get real friend.
If somehow this is meant to imply that the dunmer and argonians do not work hard enough, then somebody needs an inmediate morality check, and it certainly isn't me.
As for Belyn, as I said, good for him, but his opinion doesn't rub away the facts, the dunmer and argonians work their souls off, and they get treated like crap.
For starters, as a personal note, it's imbecilic to even wage this war on the grounds that you can't worship a fluffing god on a church, specially considering the circumstances surrounding the entire ban, which absolutely no one likes in the first place. Stormcloak supporters like to make the argument as if The Empire decided for themselves, out of their need to troll the nords, that Talos shouldn't be worshipped anymore, newsflash, there's a bunch of guys down south called The Thalmor who are to blame for that.
I mean, the choice is pretty simple: "Put your homeland and your kinsmen in a war against two armies, or secretly worship your god to spare others the violence".
Somehow, Stormcloak morality dictates that bloodshed is the better choice.
Sacrifice
Look up that word in the dictionary, please, don't rationalize it's meaning.
First, hindsight's "nice" ? I was speaking of your argument about how a single nation "defeated" The Thalmor, which is fluffing absurd, they defeated a split-force and an army that was arguably weakened by The Empire, if those hidden camps had been at Valenwood and started campaigning directly into Hammerfell, the redguards would've been history by the time of Alduin's return.
Second, it's precisely foresight what the emperor didn't lack, he saw that there was not sure chance that The Empire to defeat The Thalmor in a war, he saw that the consequences would've been too massive, so he made the best choice available to prevent bloodshed.
Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak rules Windhelm.
A Jarl's duty is to safeguard the well-being of his citizens.
Ulfric fails, quite miserably, in doing so.
Period.
Don't know how often I'll be forced to repeat this.
This entire idea that it is morally superior to "never surrender" just boggles my mind, is there something wrong about preserving your own life ? Is there something disgusting about thinking of the safety of your citizens in spite of their pride ?
I mean, sure, pretend you know enough to guess what Churchill would've or wouldn't have done, but don't pretend that never surrendering is a more reasonable choice than saving your own life.
Fighting back was not an option, at least not for intelligent, rationally-inclined individuals, for idiots and suicidal maniacs ? Deffinitely a good choice.
No they wouldn't, dunmer, argonians and khajiit also live in Skyrim, and under Stormcloak rule they would be mistreated and discriminated if somehow the "land of the nords" turned into a gigantic Windhelm.
He's listed as an asset because he is a disruptive element in Skyrim, he weakens The Empire and it's capacity to properly defend Tamriel, he helps The Thalmor exactly how they want to.
Yeah, you're full of crap.
