Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I thought the whole concept of imperial law is that your guilty until proven innocent? How come Ulfric didn't get a chance to do that? To prove his innocence? The Empire wanted to silence Ulfric... To hush him up so that others don't see the true tyranny that the empire truly is. The fact to the matter is that people are fed up with poor leadership of the Empire, and the Empire doesn't want people being reminded just how much of a failure that they are.


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Did Ulfric kill High King Torygg? Yes.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Unless Ulfric is denying he killed the High King, which he is not. What innocence is there to prove?

The only other time High Treason has been mentioned in TES, that person met with the exact same fate Ulfric was about to.
 

Lewsean

Member
I thought the whole concept of imperial law is that your guilty until proven innocent? How come Ulfric didn't get a chance to do that? To prove his innocence? The Empire wanted to silence Ulfric... To hush him up so that others don't see the true tyranny that the empire truly is. The fact to the matter is that people are fed up with poor leadership of the Empire, and the Empire doesn't want people being reminded just how much of a failure that they are.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Did Ulfric kill High King Torygg? Yes.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Unless Ulfric is denying he killed the High King, which he is not. What innocence is there to prove?

The only other time High Treason has been mentioned in TES, that person met with the exact same fate Ulfric was about to.
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.
 

LegateFasendil

Imperial Legate
I thought the whole concept of imperial law is that your guilty until proven innocent? How come Ulfric didn't get a chance to do that? To prove his innocence? The Empire wanted to silence Ulfric... To hush him up so that others don't see the true tyranny that the empire truly is. The fact to the matter is that people are fed up with poor leadership of the Empire, and the Empire doesn't want people being reminded just how much of a failure that they are.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Did Ulfric kill High King Torygg? Yes.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Unless Ulfric is denying he killed the High King, which he is not. What innocence is there to prove?

The only other time High Treason has been mentioned in TES, that person met with the exact same fate Ulfric was about to.
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.


And Ulfric escaped out a gate. Rogvir let him go.
 

Lewsean

Member
Did Ulfric kill High King Torygg? Yes.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Unless Ulfric is denying he killed the High King, which he is not. What innocence is there to prove?

The only other time High Treason has been mentioned in TES, that person met with the exact same fate Ulfric was about to.
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.


And Ulfric escaped out a gate. Rogvir let him go.
You really believe that Ulfric made it from the High King's chambers, all the way to the exit of Solitude after apparently commiting murder without a SINGLE guard attemping to stop him? If it was a crime he wouldn't have made it out of the Blue Palace. I love Ulfric but he couldn't make it from one end of Solitude to the other on his own with a whole City after him.
 

Jurgarik Greycloak

Techno master of Tamriel.
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.


And Ulfric escaped out a gate. Rogvir let him go.
You really believe that Ulfric made it from the High King's chambers, all the way to the exit of Solitude after apparently commiting murder without a SINGLE guard attemping to stop him? If it was a crime he wouldn't have made it out of the Blue Palace. I love Ulfric but he couldn't make it from one end of Solitude to the other on his own with a whole City after him.

Maybe the guards were afraid of his thu'um? IT had not been used in battle since Tiber Septim until Ulfric.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Martial Law. Gen Tullius is the military Gov. Summary executions are authorized. That's why. Have no sympathy for Ulfric because he alone plunged Skyrim into civil unrest after killing High King Torygg and cared not for the law or for civil order of Provincial Gov.

Funny none of these other Provinces are running for the door. Morrowind seems to want East Empire Co around very badly, Highrock doesn't agree with Ulfric.

Nice try. ;)

So under martial law it's OK for the Imperial legion to go out and snatch people off from the streets, and start executing them? Very much like the situation with the horse thief who done no such offense that deserves capital punishment? That Martial law gives the OK to the Legion to act like brutal animals, and not the civilized humans that their suppose to be? Laws must be followed even during Martial law. If laws dissipate during Martial law then you're no different then a but a common Brigands.

Uh no. The Imperial Legion always helps me when I get attacked, of course I am an Imperial. Stormcloaks will attack you for not 'leaving' even though you're in the middle of a non-Stormcloak hold.

I had Stormcloaks and Giants (Mostly the Windhelm Giants) do the same exact thing to me while I was in duress with another opponent. I also had the Imperials attack me for not "leaving". In fact it's quite common considering the fact that you're not suppose to be there with them. Both sides get suspicious of your activities.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Those are Stormcloaks, Legion didn't enforce the ban on Talos past an official level. Thalmor confirm this.

That's precisely the point. The Legion didn't enforce the very same law that they've signed to end the Great war. They didn't go through their part of the bargain, and that is why the Thalmor sent out their death squads (Justiciars) to hunt down, and to capture Talos worshipers. The Empire is lazy. They sign laws but don't enforce them, WTF?!?!? It is the Empire that is at fault for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim, Not the Stormcloaks and NOT Ulfric Stormcloak. The Empire violated their agreement.

It's that simple.
 

Ivory

Let's Player
That's precisely the point. The Legion didn't enforce the very same law that they've signed to end the Great war. They didn't go through their part of the bargain, and that is why the Thalmor sent out their death squads (Justiciars) to hunt down, and to capture Talos worshipers. The Empire is lazy. They sign laws but don't enforce them, WTF?!?!? It is the Empire that is at fault for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim, Not the Stormcloaks and NOT Ulfric Stormcloak. The Empire violated their agreement.

It's that simple.

readImage
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Culture and sometimes Religion can change though. At least half of the Nords in Skyrim would disagree with the above statement.

The Empire means more to them than "getting what they deserve", they are willing to sacrifice because of their faith.

Do you know just how many heads would be getting decapitated right now if the United states decided to ban the worship of Allah? And that the Quran is to be banned? Yeah I like you to to try and change their culture and Religion. Heck perhaps we'll see you next on the ISIS beheading videos.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.

Empire's law comes above all province local traditions, unless allowed by treaty or armistice.

What happened was a legal duel under the old way, but not under Imperial authority. Hence what the entire war is about.

"Stormcloaks believe their Nord way of life is at risk, while Imperials believe Skyrim is part of the Empire and must follow it's laws and customs."

So under martial law it's OK for the Imperial legion to go out and snatch people off from the streets, and start executing them? Very much like the situation with the horse thief who done no such offense that deserves capital punishment?

Stealing during a time of war is actually one of the worst things someone can do. Besides, I've seen Stormcloaks kill thieves in their cities.

Under martial law, punishment for normal crimes can be higher than during peace time.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Do you know just how many heads would be getting decapitated right now if the United states decided to ban the worship of Allah? And that the Quran is to be banned? Yeah I like you to to try and change their culture and Religion. Heck perhaps we'll see you next on the ISIS beheading videos.

ISIS is a bastardized version of Islam. Comparing the two would be saying KKK are model Catholics.

Also what does this even have to do with the Skyrim Civil War?
 

Ivory

Let's Player
Do you know just how many heads would be getting decapitated right now if the United states decided to ban the worship of Allah? And that the Quran is to be banned? Yeah I like you to to try and change their culture and Religion. Heck perhaps we'll see you next on the ISIS beheading videos.

Sweet mother of god. This has to be your most ignorant post ever. You don't seriously think ISIS leaders care about religion do you? That they aren't just terrorists hiding behind faith their leaders abuse to instill fear and hatred? Their version of the proper religion is a corrupted dark, sociopath version of the proper book and beliefs. They use the religion as a tool. Not as a true faith. You're comparing apples to god damned oceans.
 

Lewsean

Member
Another example of the Empire totally disregarding the traditions of Skyrim. What happened was a legal duel, Toyrgg accepted and lost. If it was illegal I'm sure the High King's many guards would have intervened.

Empire's law comes above all province local traditions, unless allowed by treaty or armistice.

What happened was a legal duel under the old way, but not under Imperial authority. Hence what the entire war is about.

"Stormcloaks believe their Nord way of life is at risk, while Imperials believe Skyrim is part of the Empire and must follow it's laws and customs."

So under martial law it's OK for the Imperial legion to go out and snatch people off from the streets, and start executing them? Very much like the situation with the horse thief who done no such offense that deserves capital punishment?

Stealing during a time of war is actually one of the worst things someone can do. Besides, I've seen Stormcloaks kill thieves in their cities.

Under martial law, punishment for normal crimes can be higher than during peace time.
Unfortunately you lost the right to force laws upon your citizens when you sold the same citizens to the Elves. You don't have any Imperial "authority" anymore, not anywhere outside of Cyrodill.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Did Ulfric kill High King Torygg? Yes.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death.

Unless Ulfric is denying he killed the High King, which he is not. What innocence is there to prove?

The only other time High Treason has been mentioned in TES, that person met with the exact same fate Ulfric was about to.

Yes Ulfric killed the High king... He didn't murder him. He is being accused of murdering the High king when in fact Torygg agreed in Nordic traditions to fight Ulfric. Had he rejected Ulfric would of had used it to summon the moot to declare a new High king.

For the audio.

Ulfric claims that he has lots of witnesses that can back him up, and to prove his innocence.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That's precisely the point. The Legion didn't enforce the very same law that they've signed to end the Great war. They didn't go through their part of the bargain, and that is why the Thalmor sent out their death squads (Justiciars) to hunt down, and to capture Talos worshipers. The Empire is lazy. They sign laws but don't enforce them, WTF?!?!? It is the Empire that is at fault for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim, Not the Stormcloaks and NOT Ulfric Stormcloak. The Empire violated their agreement.

It's that simple.

No. The Empire enforces the ban on those who practiced openly, putting them in prison. They didn't enforce secret worship and often ignored it, just so long as people kept a lid on it.

The Thalmor Justiciars are in Skyrim as part of the White-Gold Concordat to ensure the ban is enforced. It has nothing to do with the Empire not enforcing it. The Justiciars use the Civil War for reason of their increased presence, the more Nords taken, the more family and friends or others sign up for the Stormcloaks.

"When we destroy the rebellion, perhaps the Thalmor will call off their damned inquisitions. It's just making things worse."

Half of Skyrim is in open defiance of the Talos Ban, and the "Son's of Skyrim" (Another name for the Stormcloaks) are indeed credited with the larger crack down.
 

Lewsean

Member
That's precisely the point. The Legion didn't enforce the very same law that they've signed to end the Great war. They didn't go through their part of the bargain, and that is why the Thalmor sent out their death squads (Justiciars) to hunt down, and to capture Talos worshipers. The Empire is lazy. They sign laws but don't enforce them, WTF?!?!? It is the Empire that is at fault for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim, Not the Stormcloaks and NOT Ulfric Stormcloak. The Empire violated their agreement.

It's that simple.

No. The Empire enforces the ban on those who practiced openly, putting them in prison. They didn't enforce secret worship and often ignored it, just so long as people kept a lid on it.

The Thalmor Justiciars are in Skyrim as part of the White-Gold Concordat to ensure the ban is enforced. It has nothing to do with the Empire not enforcing it. The Justiciars use the Civil War for reason of their increased presence, the more Nords taken, the more family and friends or others sign up for the Stormcloaks.

"When we destroy the rebellion, perhaps the Thalmor will call off their damned inquisitions. It's just making things worse."

Half of Skyrim is in open defiance of the Talos Ban, and the "Son's of Skyrim" (Another name for the Stormcloaks) are indeed credited with the larger crack down.
Which brings us back to the most important point that none of this would've happened if the Empire didn't sell it's own people. You should just cut your losses and go back to Cyrodill, you didn't mind abandoning Hammerfell. But like I said many times, you're scurrying for scraps. You put a gun to someone's head and tell them not to move, they move and you shoot them, you would blame the person for moving. Empire logic right there.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
And Ulfric escaped out a gate. Rogvir let him go.

As big as Solitude is... and if Ulfric truly committed the gruesome crime of murder against the High King of Skyrim... How on earth did he manage to escape through the gates nearly untouched and not injured? The city must be packed with Soldiers, Assassins hired on by the King, and Guards.

Something ain't right and I smell a rat on this story.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Unfortunately you lost the right to force laws upon your citizens when you sold the same citizens to the Elves. You don't have any Imperial "authority" anymore, not anywhere outside of Cyrodill.

Stormcloaks are just a rebellion twenty six years too late. Fighting against the established political system, over a temporary and poorly enforced law. How long until the next rebellion and the one after that? Bringing back the old traditions, when those traditions failed is the sign of a short term thinker. How long will a King last when you can challenge them anytime.

You spread racial tension, and often mistrust and hatred. Where even Orc Strongholds are now "an affront to my people" your leader unwilling to even rule his Hold effectively, now tries to claim the throne of the country.

The Empire does have authority, and Ulfric can't risk all out war with Cyrodiil.

Yes Ulfric killed the High king... He didn't murder him. He is being accused of murdering the High king when in fact Torygg agreed in Nordic traditions to fight Ulfric. Had he rejected Ulfric would of had used it to summon the moot to declare a new High king.


Ulfric claims that he has lots of witnesses that can back him up, and to prove his innocence.

He stands accused of High Treason, no where in the law does it say it had to be murder. He killed High King Torygg, thus harming him. Punishment is death.
 

Lewsean

Member
Unfortunately you lost the right to force laws upon your citizens when you sold the same citizens to the Elves. You don't have any Imperial "authority" anymore, not anywhere outside of Cyrodill.

Stormcloaks are just a rebellion twenty six years too late. Fighting against the established political system, over a temporary and poorly enforced law. How long until the next rebellion and the one after that? Bringing back the old traditions, when those traditions failed is the sign of a short term thinker. How long will a King last when you can challenge them anytime.

You spread racial tension, and often mistrust and hatred. Where even Orc Strongholds are now "an affront to my people" your leader unwilling to even rule his Hold effectively, now tries to claim the throne of the country.

The Empire does have authority, and Ulfric can't risk all out war with Cyrodiil.

Yes Ulfric killed the High king... He didn't murder him. He is being accused of murdering the High king when in fact Torygg agreed in Nordic traditions to fight Ulfric. Had he rejected Ulfric would of had used it to summon the moot to declare a new High king.


Ulfric claims that he has lots of witnesses that can back him up, and to prove his innocence.

He stands accused of High Treason, no where in the law does it say it had to be murder. He killed High King Torygg, thus harming him. Punishment is death.
It's not just about one law, it's principal.. The Empire is willing to let everybody die before it does, no matter how much of an established political system you think you are, you're decisions have cost you respect. If you had authority, and the power to enforce that authority, there'd be no rebellion. The fact is you can't defend more than one province, you're no good for any region anymore.
 

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