Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The problem with that statement is that man, as a race, don't live as long as Mer does.

A chief distinguishing characteristic of Mer is their lengthy lifespans, with average citizens living over two centuries before being considering old, two or three times the span of Men. - Mer Lore

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mer

While Shadow Legion may have decades to study and train Mer has centuries to study.

Except all the hillbilly Imperials and Nords can turn out recruits at a far rapid pace. There also are many Mer within the Empire's lands, it isn't like there is a lack of elves in other parts of Tamriel.

Besides the Shadow Legion, there are many different magical units within the Legions proper. As evident by a ancient letter detailing Legion training within the Fifth.

I believe that splitting them into groups of two or three and situating them along the back of the main thrust is critical. This way, at least one can maintain protective wards on a particular squad as the others scan the lines for comrades in danger. If they must get into hand-to-hand combat, they can support each other with these protective magics, but we may also be wise to train them in the use of at least a short sword. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Report:_Quality_of_Recruits

The Legion makes use of wide ranges of skills, and they know how best to place them. As Balgruuf mentions, they're efficient.

Obviously a powerful Thalmor Mage would be a threat, but the Thalmor are also arrogant. Their weakness is the fact they consider men lesser, they're not about to respect their foes. Mankind has shown to be extremely capable at overcoming the advantages of the other races during the various clashes and conquests.

Vivec looked down again at his reflection, which seemed to be distorting his image, mocking him. Then he looked back on the map.

“Spy,” said Vivec, calling Cassyr over. “When you said the army had a horde of battlemages, what made you so certain they were battlemages?”



“They were wearing gray robes with mystical insignia on them,” explained Cassyr. “I figured they were mages, and why else would such a vast number travel with the army? They couldn't have all been healers.”

“You fool!” roared Vivec. “They're mystics schooled in the art of Alteration. They've cast a spell of water breathing on the entire army.”


Vivec ran to a new vantage point where he could see the north. Across the lake, though it was but a small shadow on the horizon, they could see gouts of flame from the assault on Ald Marak. Vivec bellowed with fury and his captain got to work at once redirecting the army to circle the lake and defend the castle.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:2920,_MidYear,_v6

Men are more clever than Thalmor give credit.
 

Ondolemar

Member
[QUOTE="DrunkenMage, post: 1428171, member: 8348
Men are more clever than Thalmor give credit.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, Tiber Septim was a great man who defeated the Altmer with an Elven invention. Very resourceful and also because his other options would have resulted in extreme losses on his end.

As for the Thalmor arrogance, it's not that we're arrogant in a apathetic sense, it is justifiable:

"The Thalmor saved all of Elven-kind during the Oblivion Crises. We've been watching over our lands for 200 years. We re-founded the Aldmeri Dominion, an alliance between us and our Bosmer cousins. You might know them from their common name. Wood elves. We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century at a time."

You see, the Thalmor have earned the right to lead the Summerset Isles when the Empire pulled out of Summerset to protect the core Provinces. Now, I don't blame them for doing so, however someone had to step up in Summerset Isles and no, it wasn't just the Thalmor however the Thalmor were organized and effective whereas the old Gov was scattered and disorganized without Imperial assistance.

Thalmor 'arrogance' is a result of our accomplishments. Still, arrogance can be a big problem and men can be just as arrogant - with no justification. Furthermore, the Thalmor, arrogant or not, are patient.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I told you to prove to me that the Stormcloaks have far fewer numbers than the Legion

Majority of the Legions are on the Aldmeri Dominion's border. That is Cyrodiil's Legions, Skyrim's Legions, High Rock's Legions etc.

After the Civil War, the Stormcloaks and the Legions in Skyrim have about the same number of soldiers. Which will increase as both sides recruit and train during the pause of peace. We know for a fact that the Legions in Skyrim are a small fraction of the Empire's army, while the Stormcloaks are everything Ulfric and Independent Skyrim has.

There are also thousands of mercenaries which the Empire employs, the Stormcloaks won't use mercenaries because they only want true believers. (Will explain that further down.)

The Empire does actually have majority of support. While they both have about 1/4 Pro. Those who are open about their support, hate the other side, will aid their side anyway they can. The rest of Skyrim the other neutral half of those who want the war to end, want things to go back to how they were. That counts in favor of the Empire, because they want the status quo which is how things were i.e the Empire and peace, before the rebellion.

Where the Stormcloaks begin to fall behind is they operate on the ideology of "With us or against us" or as their Officers put it "You're either a true son/daughter of Skyrim, or you're not"

You have to truly believe in their cause to be one of them. To the Stormcloaks those who aren't willing to pick a side are considered no better than the Empire, evident in Windhelm, and dialogue from the Stormcloaks themselves.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
As for the Thalmor arrogance, it's not that we're arrogant in a apathetic sense, it is justifiable:

"The Thalmor saved all of Elven-kind during the Oblivion Crises. We've been watching over our lands for 200 years. We re-founded the Aldmeri Dominion, an alliance between us and our Bosmer cousins. You might know them from their common name. Wood elves. We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century at a time."

You see, the Thalmor have earned the right to lead the Summerset Isles when the Empire pulled out of Summerset to protect the core Provinces. Now, I don't blame them for doing so, however someone had to step up in Summerset Isles and no, it wasn't just the Thalmor however the Thalmor were organized and effective whereas the old Gov was scattered and disorganized without Imperial assistance.

Thalmor 'arrogance' is a result of our accomplishments. Still, arrogance can be a big problem and men can be just as arrogant - with no justification. Furthermore, the Thalmor, arrogant or not, are patient.

Except they didn't save Elven kind, the Thalmor used propaganda and outright lies to gain power. They claimed they had stopped the Daedra because no one knew about Martin Septim on Summerset, the outside world may have been on the Moons because the Oblivion Crisis had isolated them.

Before my numbed mind could comprehend the tumult that consumed my beloved Summerset Isle, before I could formulate the question "how?" they were there, dripping honeyed poison in our ears: the Thalmor. They were the ones that saved us, they claimed, working deep and subtle magicks. It was their efforts, their sacrifices that delivered the Altmer from extinction.

Oh, what fools we were. We wanted so desperately someone to thank for ending our tribulations, we lavished it upon the first to step up and claim the glory. With that simple act of gratitude, we allowed a vile rot to seep into our homeland, to putrefy our once noble and distinguished civilization. - Rising Threat

Within months they established themselves, starting small. Exile here, assassination there. The Thalmor arrogance is based on lies told so often, they actually believe it themselves. Their 'accomplishments' are brainwashing and doctrine that makes members of the Thalmor fear each other.

Their use of underhanded methods is efficient, but their weakness is the arrogance. They've pushed mankind too far and their brutal treatment of those within their lands as part of ethnic and political motivated cleansing. The only reason they managed to do as well as they did during the Great War was the element of surprise and the fact that the Empire was unprepared and weak to face invasion.

This isn't the Thalmor of the past, their own kin stand against them. Thalmor of the Fourth Era are just a corrupted version of a once noble faction.
 
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Dropjaw23

Hail the Empire!
And personally if the Stormcloaks and Imperial would quite bickering and team up they could smash the elves today easily. Not to mention all the Thalmor officers are dead, I assassinated Elewen, Ondolemar, Ancano, Estormo, Rulindil and Captain Valmir. So their foothold in skyrim is weak :) by me!
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
And personally if the Stormcloaks and Imperial would quite bickering and team up they could smash the elves today easily. Not to mention all the Thalmor officers are dead, I assassinated Elewen, Ondolemar, Ancano, Estormo, Rulindil and Captain Valmir. So their foothold in skyrim is weak :) by me!
Hello! Welcome to the forums! Sadly, the Thalmor do not need officers to continue with their espionage. The Thalmor, officers or not, have and will continue to cloak and dagger. Why? Because that's the way they are! :)
 

Dropjaw23

Hail the Empire!
True that but it puts me in a good more for every Thalmor that dies...just makes the world that much of a better place.
 

Ondolemar

Member
As for the Thalmor arrogance, it's not that we're arrogant in a apathetic sense, it is justifiable:

"The Thalmor saved all of Elven-kind during the Oblivion Crises. We've been watching over our lands for 200 years. We re-founded the Aldmeri Dominion, an alliance between us and our Bosmer cousins. You might know them from their common name. Wood elves. We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century at a time."

You see, the Thalmor have earned the right to lead the Summerset Isles when the Empire pulled out of Summerset to protect the core Provinces. Now, I don't blame them for doing so, however someone had to step up in Summerset Isles and no, it wasn't just the Thalmor however the Thalmor were organized and effective whereas the old Gov was scattered and disorganized without Imperial assistance.

Thalmor 'arrogance' is a result of our accomplishments. Still, arrogance can be a big problem and men can be just as arrogant - with no justification. Furthermore, the Thalmor, arrogant or not, are patient.

Except they didn't save Elven kind, the Thalmor used propaganda and outright lies to gain power. They claimed they had stopped the Daedra because no one knew about Martin Septim on Summerset, the outside world may have been on the Moons because the Oblivion Crisis had isolated them.

Before my numbed mind could comprehend the tumult that consumed my beloved Summerset Isle, before I could formulate the question "how?" they were there, dripping honeyed poison in our ears: the Thalmor. They were the ones that saved us, they claimed, working deep and subtle magicks. It was their efforts, their sacrifices that delivered the Altmer from extinction.

Oh, what fools we were. We wanted so desperately someone to thank for ending our tribulations, we lavished it upon the first to step up and claim the glory. With that simple act of gratitude, we allowed a vile rot to seep into our homeland, to putrefy our once noble and distinguished civilization. - Rising Threat

Within months they established themselves, starting small. Exile here, assassination there. The Thalmor arrogance is based on lies told so often, they actually believe it themselves. Their 'accomplishments' are brainwashing and doctrine that makes members of the Thalmor fear each other.

Their use of underhanded methods is efficient, but their weakness is the arrogance. They've pushed mankind too far and their brutal treatment of those within their lands as part of ethnic and political motivated cleansing. The only reason they managed to do as well as they did during the Great War was the element of surprise and the fact that the Empire was unprepared and weak to face invasion.

This isn't the Thalmor of the past, their own kin stand against them. Thalmor of the Fourth Era are just a corrupted version of a once noble faction.


The Thalmor are an old association within the Summerset Gov. They were 'what was left' of the original Dominion Gov after Tiber Septim was thru with Summerset, they became the minority voice of reason. Thru the years of being ignored, spat on and cold-shouldered by the Crystal Tower and puppet Gov set in place by the Empire of Septim and so forth, they became as one can imagine, very angry and a bit twisted. However, the Empire was still the par in Tamriel and so they waited, the Empire had it's chance after all.

Then someone with nothing to do on a rainy Sat decided, "wouldn't it be fun to open the gates of hell?" So, after years of Imperial Domination to keep the Altmer from rivaling the Empire, the Imperials pulled out to protect the Core Provinces. Fine. The Crystal Tower and puppet Gov was left to fend for itself, with the entire countryside falling to pieces and prob nothing more than Elven Wizards and Mages def the Crystal Tower, along with the Thalmor. Empire was gone. No Legion avail, they had all already left. The site became a massacre and all that was left of the Altmer Gov was the puppet Gov.

The Summerset Isle faired far better than Cyrodil in closing Oblivion Gates, as the Thalmor were very driven in organizing resistance. They didn't wait on some man to save them, they saved themselves, besides, no one in Summerset knew anything about Martin's sacrifice for some time. So, after the nightmare had ended, the puppet Gov stepped up and wanted everything back. Thalmor stepped in and very wisely prevented this from happening, again, saving the Summerset Isles from more inaction and dangerous apathy, not being subdued by the Empire. Over 200 yrs ~ The Thalmor not only saved Summerset Isles from the Oblivion Crises, they successfully restored the entire Dominion AND emerged as one of the only Victors in the Great War against the Empire.

So. Love them, hate them, Thalmor ambition and accomplishments cannot be denied. I don't think anyone else has any room in here to point fingers, the Thalmor have proven themselves and the burden of proof -this time- is on the Empire.

  • "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."
 
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Ondolemar

Member
And personally if the Stormcloaks and Imperial would quite bickering and team up they could smash the elves today easily. Not to mention all the Thalmor officers are dead, I assassinated Elewen, Ondolemar, Ancano, Estormo, Rulindil and Captain Valmir. So their foothold in skyrim is weak :) by me!
Hello! Welcome to the forums! Sadly, the Thalmor do not need officers to continue with their espionage. The Thalmor, officers or not, have and will continue to cloak and dagger. Why? Because that's the way they are! :)


Indeed.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
It's not the fact that i'm a newcomer, in fact to be honest it is getting quite insulting that whenever I claim differentiation or errors, you acknowledge me as a newcomer. Technical difficulties result in prevalent lack of responses for me. This one might not even show up for all that I know, but i'm trying anyway.
I get it, I'm sorry its just really hard for me trying to read it. I've had technical difficulties as well, I unjustly assumed it was because of you being new and I apologize for that. please do whatever id most convenient

Bias? Definitely, but true nonetheless.
It still isn't true, you should read what I have to say. my argument presented some pretty valid points that the book doesn't go into detail on or just completely lied to you about. How could Ulfric kill Nords in Markarth if the Forsworn don't like anyone else being in the Reach but the Forsworn? How could Ulfric have supposedly, killed all the Reachmen when there are still Reachmen from the Markarth Incident in Markarth? How could the Reach be recognized as a nation by the Empire if the Empire wanted control of the Reach and were Huge enemies of the Reachmen? These are questions that need to be answered and questions "The Bear of Markarth" never went into further detail on, or just completely lied to you about. He's a damn Forsworn sympathizer, you shouldn't expect any valid information. Especially since Igmund was there and refuted what Arianus actually had to say, stating that the Forsworn "refused their offers of peace". So basically you're holding the opinion of some scholar over the opinion of someone who was actually there. No such atrocities were committed and if they were provide me with evidence that says so other than citing "The Bear of Markarth"

You don't get my point. You claimed that the Legions are doing a horrible job of protecting people, yet the Empire survived the Great War preventing your deaths. I'd say they did a damn good job.
They held the line very well and bravely but unfortunately gave up when a lot of people wanted to keep fighting. Leading to Rebellion.

You are highly overreacting.
No I'm not.

You were never treated as "lesser beings"
We were by the Thalmor who were legally allowed to persecute and wipe out our most important god by your delegation.

if you're a citizen of the Empire, then you obtain and evaluate the same rights granted to you as they are to everyone else. You clearly have the freedom to worship whoever you want, you just have to be quiet about it.
Not going to happen, you're obviously not a religious man(granted neither am I)or have ever heard testaments of Religious people facing persecution. You can't just hide your religion; if it were that simple how effective would the Holocaust have been? If the Jews could just hide their religion, they wouldn't have been killed, right? Now obviously the scale of the persecution isn't as large as what the Jews had to go through and I'm not trying to compare the two, because ultimately they're completely different, but the idea of hiding your religion, especially when we're talking about stubborn Nords and their traditions, isn't an effective solution. It's basically like telling them to say "In Public pretend like your god that you've worshiped for a very long time and who is kind of your most important deity, doesn't exist or be butchered"- Wait, no that's exactly what you're saying.

5. You are generalizing now and reverting back to roleplay due to lack of validity in your counter arguments.
When was I roleplaying in that statement? I didn't roleplay once in my last post.
"You've failed to keep them out, Imperial we fight to preserve our way of life and you allow the only people who want to oppress us within our borders." If it's not then i'm sorry, but that sounds a bit like RP to me.[/quote]
Wow, guess i got a bit into character there... sorry. Anyway... it still holds some truth to it. The Thalmor ,literally the worst possible part of the Dominion for Talos worshiping, is in Skyrim, killing people under your nose. You know this and then you have the audacity to say that you're keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. You guys should really drop that argument, its not a good one.

No, Ondolemar was already aware for a fact that Ogmund worshiped Talos. He knew he did, but couldn't arrest him because the Jarl constantly been hesitant to call for his arrest. So another fact is that if the Thalmor are in a city, it seems that they must have the Jarl find him guilty, or be able to obtain irrefutable evidence.
I guess they asked for the permission of the Jarl to kidnap all of those people, right?

And so what if he does? Even if he succeeded, Skyrim would fall. Whether it be the Empire or the Thalmor, the rebellion will inevitably perish.
I'd say Skyrim is strong enough, when its united, to maintain itself. Now as for invading the Dominion, I don't think we could do that.

This makes 0 sense.
Can you tell me why it makes zero sense or are you just going to say it makes zero sense? It makes a lot of sense, Its stated in the game many times that the War is making Skyrim and the Empire weak, If the war ends, leaning towards either side its a hindrance to the Thalmor because Skyrim is reunified.

No, I didnt say the Empire would fall. I said reinforcements would be halted, therefor weakening the Empire even more so.
Hmph, weakening an already weak Empire, interesting...

12. Half of Skyrim.
I want to see the evidence that you protect the innocent.I haven't found it yet.
*Cough* Helgen *Cough*[/quote]
Remember when I said other than Helgen, let me remind you that you were also Torturing Stormcloaks in the Keep. And this wasn't just prisoners of war, a random mage is down in those cellars as well, tell me, why? Also, most of those Imperials just tried to shoot the World Eater down rather than take the townspeople to safety.

Even so, there's a huge difference between innocence and front line involvement with the rebellion.
And yet Imperial Soldiers are seen as "innocent" in your eyes. I smell Hypocrisy, one of the many reasons we want you out.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
How could Ulfric kill Nords in Markarth if the Forsworn don't like anyone else being in the Reach but the Forsworn? How could Ulfric have supposedly, killed all the Reachmen when there are still Reachmen from the Markarth Incident in Markarth? How could the Reach be recognized as a nation by the Empire if the Empire wanted control of the Reach and were Huge enemies of the Reachmen? These are questions that need to be answered and questions "The Bear of Markarth" never went into further detail on, or just completely lied to you about. He's a damn Forsworn sympathizer, you shouldn't expect any valid information. Especially since Igmund was there and refuted what Arianus actually had to say, stating that the Forsworn "refused their offers of peace". So basically you're holding the opinion of some scholar over the opinion of someone who was actually there. No such atrocities were committed and if they were provide me with evidence that says so other than citing "The Bear of Markarth"

The Forsworn didn't exist until after the retaking of Markarth, where they fled into the hills.

There isn't even a claim that Ulfric killed all of the Reachmen. Atrocities were committed by the Stormcloaks and Igmund's family.

Not every fact is shown, it does have bias. Doesn't make it completely untrue, there is truth within it. It plays down the deeds done by Igmund and his father.

"You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips

That line is a Stormcloak one, very much Ulfric. "With us or against us" is seen all around the Stormcloaks, no way a Scholar could just lie about the event. He doesn't know Ulfric personally and the book seems to have been written (and the second book) during the years of Ulfric's imprisonment, since Stormcloaks aren't mentioned. Which would indicate pre-war.

The Stormcloaks do commit atrocities, they have been known to kill civilians who don't support their cause. Season Unending exposes the darker side that both do evil acts, there are no 'good guys'

It isn't a 'smoking gun' argument, where it will destroy why you should join the Stormcloaks. Empire has done just as bad things. The Stormcloaks plan to enslave the Forsworn, you honestly believe they'd stop short of executing people they think to be aiding them?

"There are no innocent onlookers in this struggle. Just the guilty, and the dead."
 
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Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
The Forsworn didn't exist until after the retaking of Markarth, where they fled into the hills.

There isn't even a claim that Ulfric killed all of the Reachmen. Atrocities were committed by the Stormcloaks and Igmund's family.

Not every fact is shown, it does have bias. Doesn't make it completely untrue, there is truth within it. It plays down the deeds done by Igmund and his father.

"You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips

That line is a Stormcloak one, very much Ulfric. "With us or against us" is seen all around the Stormcloaks, no way a Scholar could just lie about the event. He doesn't know Ulfric personally and the book seems to have been written (and the second book) during the years of Ulfric's imprisonment, since Stormcloaks aren't mentioned. Which would indicate pre-war.

The Stormcloaks do commit atrocities, they have been known to kill civilians who don't support their cause. Season Unending exposes the darker side that both do evil acts, there are no 'good guys'

It isn't a 'smoking gun' argument, where it will destroy why you should join the Stormcloaks. Empire has done just as bad things. The Stormcloaks plan to enslave the Forsworn, you honestly believe they'd stop short of executing people they think to be aiding them?

"There are no innocent onlookers in this struggle. Just the guilty, and the dead."
The book claimed that Ulfric had killed all Reachmen and anyone associated with them in the city of Markarth after the Incident. Now the fact of the matter is that Reachmen old enough to be from the time of the Markarth Incident still exist in Markarth, Now I can see Ulfric killing all of the Reachmen, and honestly I don't see the Empire being anymore forgiving to the Reachmen, However we do know as a fact that Ulfric could not have killed people of any other race because the Reachmen have a strict "no foreigner in the Reach" Policy. We also know Ulfric didn't kill all of the Reachman because Madanach was kept alive, so he was either mislead or was just lying. We also know the Empire likely didn't want to recognize the savages as an independent nation because the Reachmen want nothing to do with the Empire, after all the Empire "stole" The Reach from them in the first place. The book is more than jut bias, but from everything we know about Markarth and the Reachmen we can easily refute it. The massacre of Karthwasten is a completely different story and apparently it was followed up with, or proceeded by, a massacre from the Empire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
"You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips

That line is a Stormcloak one, very much Ulfric. "With us or against us" is seen all around the Stormcloaks, no way a Scholar could just lie about the event. He doesn't know Ulfric personally and the book seems to have been written (and the second book) during the years of Ulfric's imprisonment, since Stormcloaks aren't mentioned. Which would indicate pre-war.

The Stormcloaks do commit atrocities, they have been known to kill civilians who don't support their cause. Season Unending exposes the darker side that both do evil acts, there are no 'good guys'

It isn't a 'smoking gun' argument, where it will destroy why you should join the Stormcloaks. Empire has done just as bad things. The Stormcloaks plan to enslave the Forsworn, you honestly believe they'd stop short of executing people they think to be aiding them?

"There are no innocent onlookers in this struggle. Just the guilty, and the dead."

Those atrocities that you speak of would of never had happen in Markarth if Ulfric wasn't hired by the Empire to retake back the reach in the first place. How come when you discuss these bad things that Ulfric did to the people in the reach you never mention about Ulfric being hired by the Empire to do a job? Ulfric was hired to commit war crimes against a peaceful kingdom for the sole purple to regain back the capitol and for it return back to Imperial control with payment of open worship of Talos.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_"Madmen"_of_the_Reach

The very moment that the Empire hired a group of Nordic militia to siege their peaceful city, and drove them out from their homes, and into the mountains was the day that the Empire officially declared war against the Forsworn.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The book claimed that Ulfric had killed all Reachmen and anyone associated with them in the city of Markarth after the Incident. Now the fact of the matter is that Reachmen old enough to be from the time of the Markarth Incident still exist in Markarth, Now I can see Ulfric killing all of the Reachmen, and honestly I don't see the Empire being anymore forgiving to the Reachmen, However we do know as a fact that Ulfric could not have killed people of any other race because the Reachmen have a strict "no foreigner in the Reach" Policy. We also know Ulfric didn't kill all of the Reachman because Madanach was kept alive, so he was either mislead or was just lying. We also know the Empire likely didn't want to recognize the savages as an independent nation because the Reachmen want nothing to do with the Empire, after all the Empire "stole" The Reach from them in the first place. The book is more than jut bias, but from everything we know about Markarth and the Reachmen we can easily refute it. The massacre of Karthwasten is a completely different story and apparently it was followed up with, or proceeded by, a massacre from the Empire.


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It doesn't claim he killed every single one. It actually mentions that death tolls were rising until the Legion took over. The Reachmen didn't have a "no foreigner policy" the Forsworn do which are those who survived and fled to the hills. Orcs have lived in the areas for a long time, in fact the Reachmen were taught hedge magic from the Orcs.

Madanach's execution was halted by the Silver-Blood's in secret. They wanted to use him to control the Forsworn, use them to terrorise their enemies and protect silver-blood allies.

They weren't savages, they became that when they fled to the hills becoming Forsworn. The Empire "stole" the Reach many times, doesn't stop the Reachmen from operating in society. Only those who held to the old ways or now the Forsworn. Nords probably treated them like second class citizens, they've never been friends.

It wouldn't surprise me that the Empire would consider to make deals with Reachmen, there was a Reachmen Dynasty of Emperors. Imperials recognized Orcs as citizens of the Empire, they were considered savages and beasts. They were even the enemies in previous early Elder Scrolls games.

The massacres are another story, but the point was that neither side is above doing it.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Those atrocities that you speak of would of never had happen in Markarth if Ulfric wasn't hired by the Empire to retake back the reach in the first place. How come when you discuss these bad things that Ulfric did to the people in the reach you never mention about Ulfric being hired by the Empire to do a job? Ulfric was hired to commit war crimes against a peaceful kingdom for the sole purple to regain back the capitol and for it return back to Imperial control with payment of open worship of Talos.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_"Madmen"_of_the_Reach

The very moment that the Empire hired a group of Nordic militia to siege their peaceful city, and drove them out from their homes, and into the mountains was the day that the Empire officially declared war against the Forsworn.

You obviously missed the point, I wasn't attacking Stormcloaks about Markarth. Both sides commit atrocities.

The atrocities wouldn't have happened if the Empire didn't hire Ulfric? Jarl Hrolfdir did the hiring, because they were desperate. But really? By your logic if they got someone else, it would have been different?

If you honestly believe the Nords would allow Reachmen to control one of their cities, you don't know Nords.

The Empire is at war with the Forsworn. The Legion fights them, and attacks their camps. Well, not 'war' since they're considered brigands by the Legion.

The Stormcloaks plan to enslave them, is that the Empire's doing? We hiring you boys again?

The whole "Don't blame me, just following orders" is a poor excuse that is responsible for some of the worst deeds in our own history. Not even sure why you would use that.
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
It's not the fact that i'm a newcomer, in fact to be honest it is getting quite insulting that whenever I claim differentiation or errors, you acknowledge me as a newcomer. Technical difficulties result in prevalent lack of responses for me. This one might not even show up for all that I know, but i'm trying anyway.
I get it, I'm sorry its just really hard for me trying to read it. I've had technical difficulties as well, I unjustly assumed it was because of you being new and I apologize for that. please do whatever id most convenient

Bias? Definitely, but true nonetheless.
It still isn't true, you should read what I have to say. my argument presented some pretty valid points that the book doesn't go into detail on or just completely lied to you about. How could Ulfric kill Nords in Markarth if the Forsworn don't like anyone else being in the Reach but the Forsworn? How could Ulfric have supposedly, killed all the Reachmen when there are still Reachmen from the Markarth Incident in Markarth? How could the Reach be recognized as a nation by the Empire if the Empire wanted control of the Reach and were Huge enemies of the Reachmen? These are questions that need to be answered and questions "The Bear of Markarth" never went into further detail on, or just completely lied to you about. He's a damn Forsworn sympathizer, you shouldn't expect any valid information. Especially since Igmund was there and refuted what Arianus actually had to say, stating that the Forsworn "refused their offers of peace". So basically you're holding the opinion of some scholar over the opinion of someone who was actually there. No such atrocities were committed and if they were provide me with evidence that says so other than citing "The Bear of Markarth"
"Ulfric Stormcloak not only had anyone associated with the Forsworn executed after they surrendered, but also had anyone else executed without regard to race, age or gender if they had failed to assist the Nord militia in its campaign against the Forsworn."-Uesp.Wiki/lore/Forsworn.
You don't get my point. You claimed that the Legions are doing a horrible job of protecting people, yet the Empire survived the Great War preventing your deaths. I'd say they did a damn good job.
They held the line very well and bravely but unfortunately gave up when a lot of people wanted to keep fighting. Leading to Rebellion.
I'm sure that the Empire didn't want to give up either, but they did what they knew was the right thing. Be serious. If you were in a fight with someone trying to protect your friend and both of you were beat to high Hell in pain, then The other person pulled a knife to your throat saying "If you don't give up then I will kill you and your friend!" While your friend is behind you similarly beat up shouting for you to give up, what would you do? Again, be real.
You are highly overreacting.
No I'm not.

You were never treated as "lesser beings"
We were by the Thalmor who were legally allowed to persecute and wipe out our most important god by your delegation.
So you are blaming the Empire for the Thalmor's views over men? Tell me, can you name any other time that Nords were treated as "lesser beings" by the Empire as a whole? Let me clarify that again, you were NEVER treated as anything less than an Imperial citizen.
if you're a citizen of the Empire, then you obtain and evaluate the same rights granted to you as they are to everyone else. You clearly have the freedom to worship whoever you want, you just have to be quiet about it.
Not going to happen, you're obviously not a religious man(granted neither am I)or have ever heard testaments of Religious people facing persecution. You can't just hide your religion; if it were that simple how effective would the Holocaust have been? If the Jews could just hide their religion, they wouldn't have been killed, right? Now obviously the scale of the persecution isn't as large as what the Jews had to go through and I'm not trying to compare the two, because ultimately they're completely different, but the idea of hiding your religion, especially when we're talking about stubborn Nords and their traditions, isn't an effective solution. It's basically like telling them to say "In Public pretend like your god that you've worshiped for a very long time and who is kind of your most important deity, doesn't exist or be butchered"- Wait, no that's exactly what you're saying.
On the contrary, I'm actually a Catholic who goes to church every Sunday, Monday and Saturday. I'm a lead singer in the church choir, senior alter server and enrolling for The Knights Of Columbus, whom are veteran contributors to the diocese of the area. So don't you dare tell me what I am or am not. No, you are utterly incorrect about the Holocaust. Touching on this time of history, I HIGHLY recommend you research before you post. I'm not even going to touch on that subject. Anyone can hide their religion, it's not hard. If I wanted forgiveness, I could easily get on my knees and pray in my household. I don't need a church. In fact, The church is generally seen in two ways: the visible and invisible. The visible church is comprised of all those who attend services, who claim to be Christians, etc. The invisible church is comprised of individuals who are not present at the church, praying at home, ect. So yes, I would "hide my faith" (even though I'm not religiously hiding it at all) to live another day and resume to preach the faith.
5. You are generalizing now and reverting back to roleplay due to lack of validity in your counter arguments.
When was I roleplaying in that statement? I didn't roleplay once in my last post.
"You've failed to keep them out, Imperial we fight to preserve our way of life and you allow the only people who want to oppress us within our borders." If it's not then i'm sorry, but that sounds a bit like RP to me.
Wow, guess i got a bit into character there... sorry. Anyway... it still holds some truth to it. The Thalmor ,literally the worst possible part of the Dominion for Talos worshiping, is in Skyrim, killing people under your nose. You know this and then you have the audacity to say that you're keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. You guys should really drop that argument, its not a good one.
The dominion is compromised of a hell of a lot more than the Thalmor. Yes the Thalmor are bad, but do you think the Empire really had a say in who could or could not enforce the treaty? Plus, when they say that they are keeping the Dominion out, they (obviously) mean the Dominion military forces. I think YOU should drop it because it is personally not a relevant argument, because it is quite obvious.
No, Ondolemar was already aware for a fact that Ogmund worshiped Talos. He knew he did, but couldn't arrest him because the Jarl constantly been hesitant to call for his arrest. So another fact is that if the Thalmor are in a city, it seems that they must have the Jarl find him guilty, or be able to obtain irrefutable evidence.
I guess they asked for the permission of the Jarl to kidnap all of those people, right?
What are you talking about? What people? You are making 0 sense again. Please explain.
And so what if he does? Even if he succeeded, Skyrim would fall. Whether it be the Empire or the Thalmor, the rebellion will inevitably perish.
I'd say Skyrim is strong enough, when its united, to maintain itself. Now as for invading the Dominion, I don't think we could do that.
Skyrim itself will never fully be "united". At the end of the Stormcloak questline, you may have conquered all of the holds, but a majority of all the citizens are unhappy and will unlikely support the rebellion. At THE most, you have maybe 65% of Skyrim. Yet one auxillary legion was able to hold off half? Damn you're screwed.
This makes 0 sense.
Can you tell me why it makes zero sense or are you just going to say it makes zero sense? It makes a lot of sense, Its stated in the game many times that the War is making Skyrim and the Empire weak, If the war ends, leaning towards either side its a hindrance to the Thalmor because Skyrim is reunified.
In the overall factor, the Thalmor would be even more hindered under Imperial control.
No, I didnt say the Empire would fall. I said reinforcements would be halted, therefor weakening the Empire even more so.
Hmph, weakening an already weak Empire, interesting...

12. Half of Skyrim.
I want to see the evidence that you protect the innocent.I haven't found it yet.
*Cough* Helgen *Cough*[/quote]
Remember when I said other than Helgen, let me remind you that you were also Torturing Stormcloaks in the Keep. And this wasn't just prisoners of war, a random mage is down in those cellars as well, tell me, why? Also, most of those Imperials just tried to shoot the World Eater down rather than take the townspeople to safety.
There's quite a bit or irony in this. It has been discussed multiple times and I'm not going to bore everyone by having it stated again. All I'm saying is look below your capitol....
Even so, there's a huge difference between innocence and front line involvement with the rebellion.
And yet Imperial Soldiers are seen as "innocent" in your eyes. I smell Hypocrisy, one of the many reasons we want you out.[/QUOTE]
What?! o_O
 

General Charles Xander

General of the 11th Imperial Legion
I'm not sure, but I think that a majority of my beginning argument got sucked away. Please confirm.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The very moment that the Empire hired a group of Nordic militia to siege their peaceful city, and drove them out from their homes, and into the mountains was the day that the Empire officially declared war against the Forsworn.

Also, show me where it says the Empire hired the Nord Militia?

Jarl Hrolfdir and his Son hiring a Militia doesn't translate to "The Empire" can you show me anywhere it says the Empire actually tasked Ulfric with this job. By the sources you presented, you showed the Empire came in the aftermath and allowed free worship in exchange for the city being released from the control of the Militia.

Silver-Blood mercenaries bullying land owners and extorting people, did the "Stormcloak Government" hire them? Or... like the Nord Militia. Were they hired by a single noble family and don't represent entire provinces?
 

Lewsean

Member
Those atrocities that you speak of would of never had happen in Markarth if Ulfric wasn't hired by the Empire to retake back the reach in the first place. How come when you discuss these bad things that Ulfric did to the people in the reach you never mention about Ulfric being hired by the Empire to do a job? Ulfric was hired to commit war crimes against a peaceful kingdom for the sole purple to regain back the capitol and for it return back to Imperial control with payment of open worship of Talos.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_"Madmen"_of_the_Reach

The very moment that the Empire hired a group of Nordic militia to siege their peaceful city, and drove them out from their homes, and into the mountains was the day that the Empire officially declared war against the Forsworn.

You obviously missed the point, I wasn't attacking Stormcloaks about Markarth. Both sides commit atrocities.

The atrocities wouldn't have happened if the Empire didn't hire Ulfric? Jarl Hrolfdir did the hiring, because they were desperate. But really? By your logic if they got someone else, it would have been different?

If you honestly believe the Nords would allow Reachmen to control one of their cities, you don't know Nords.

The Empire is at war with the Forsworn. The Legion fights them, and attacks their camps. Well, not 'war' since they're considered brigands by the Legion.

The Stormcloaks plan to enslave them, is that the Empire's doing? We hiring you boys again?

The whole "Don't blame me, just following orders" is a poor excuse that is responsible for some of the worst deeds in our own history. Not even sure why you would use that.
You don't seriously expect people to take the Bear Of Markarth with any truth lol? Anything the Imperials claim happened during that time is mentioned in the BOOK only, not once is it mentioned by anybody in the city or anywhere else for that matter. It's just one big propaganda bullplops story haha, doesn't even get past the second sentences before trying to undermine Nords. You're welcome to show me proof any of what was said in the book actually happened, but until that time please don't use it as a source. So annoying seeing the Empire justify everything you do with the Thalmor yet show zero remorse for the people that fought to keep your precious Empire alive.



I told you to prove to me that the Stormcloaks have far fewer numbers than the Legion

Majority of the Legions are on the Aldmeri Dominion's border. That is Cyrodiil's Legions, Skyrim's Legions, High Rock's Legions etc.

After the Civil War, the Stormcloaks and the Legions in Skyrim have about the same number of soldiers. Which will increase as both sides recruit and train during the pause of peace. We know for a fact that the Legions in Skyrim are a small fraction of the Empire's army, while the Stormcloaks are everything Ulfric and Independent Skyrim has.

There are also thousands of mercenaries which the Empire employs, the Stormcloaks won't use mercenaries because they only want true believers. (Will explain that further down.)

The Empire does actually have majority of support. While they both have about 1/4 Pro. Those who are open about their support, hate the other side, will aid their side anyway they can. The rest of Skyrim the other neutral half of those who want the war to end, want things to go back to how they were. That counts in favor of the Empire, because they want the status quo which is how things were i.e the Empire and peace, before the rebellion.

Where the Stormcloaks begin to fall behind is they operate on the ideology of "With us or against us" or as their Officers put it "You're either a true son/daughter of Skyrim, or you're not"

You have to truly believe in their cause to be one of them. To the Stormcloaks those who aren't willing to pick a side are considered no better than the Empire, evident in Windhelm, and dialogue from the Stormcloaks themselves.
After the Civil War every fort/village/city is occupied by Stormcloaks, that is more than the Legion has, where did you get the idea that they have the same troop number lol? The Legions were destroyed during the Great War, the only way you could have re-built to previous standards is if you found a way to make people age faster, if not you're stuck with a bunch of 20-25 year olds with no experience whatsoever, most Stormcloaks are ex-legion, and Nords occupied the largest portion of the Empire's army.
And no you don't have the majority of support. All of the old holds are loyal the Ulfric, whiterun is neutral and only accepted troops to protect the hold and Markarth is ran by Stormcloak loyal Silver-Bloods. In true fact the only places you have a true hold over are Solitude, Falkreath and Morthal. No, neutrals aren't loyal to the Empire, which is why they are "neutral".., how can you make such assumptions? Rather ironic you insult the idea of 'with us or against us' considering that's the way the Empire is working right now, unfortunately for you guys you aren't getting your way and most of Tamriel are against you.
 
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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You don't seriously expect people to take the Bear Of Markarth with any truth lol? Anything the Imperials claim happened during that time is mentioned in the BOOK only, not once is it mentioned by anybody in the city or anywhere else for that matter. It's just one big propaganda bullpl*** story haha, doesn't even get past the second sentences before trying to undermine Nords. You're welcome to show me proof any of what was said in the book actually happened, but until that time please don't use it as a source. So annoying seeing the Empire justify everything you do with the Thalmor yet show zero remorse for the people that fought to keep your precious Empire alive.

'Imperials' claim? Firstly the book has nothing to do with Imperial agendas, the author being an 'Imperial Scholar' is race, not allegiance.

Who in the city would mention it? It happened twenty six years ago in the shadow of the Great War. The truth of "events" is never 100% in books of TES, as we find out that Igmund's father was the one who had promised the free talos worship and they also took part in atrocities.

As for your "bullplops propaganda" how do you explain the line so famously assoiciated with Stormcloaks? That "With us or against Skyrim"? For that to be in there would indicate that event did happen, and it is clearly something Ulfric would say.

The Stormcloaks commit atrocities and massacres. Same as the Empire. So annoying seeing Stormcloaks trying to condemn the Empire for things they're just as guilty for.


After the Civil War every fort/village/city is occupied by Stormcloaks, that is more than the Legion has, where did you get the idea that they have the same troop number lol?

When the Imperial side wins, they also have every fort/village/city occupied. Both sides have around the same number of soldiers in Skyrim at the end of the Civil War.

Cyrodiil has far more soldiers, you're forgetting that the Legions which had returned to Skyrim and High Rock after the Great War are now back in Cyrodiil.

The Legions were destroyed during the Great War, the only way you could have re-built to previous standards is if you found a way to make people age faster, if not you're stuck with a bunch of 20-25 year olds with no experience whatsoever

The Legions weren't destroyed, three Legions were while the rest were down to half strength. Make people age faster? Did every province suddenly not have any children/teens during the Great War and prior or after?

No experience whatsoever? How do you even work that out. There would still be veterans from the Great War within the ranks of the Legions that are on the border. Stuck with 20-25 year olds... What about the thirty year olds or the forty year olds?

They do get extremely good training, and would be schooled in Aldmeri tactics learned from the Great War.

"The tenacity of the Imperial Legion is legendary." - Jod

There are millions of people within the Empire. Cyrodiil probably has the largest population of them all.

most Stormcloaks are ex-legion

No they're actually not. They have some ex-Legion members, not most. In fact majority of the Stormcloaks are farmers, shop keepers, blacksmiths etc. They have do have ex-Legion, but 'most' is pushing it.

and Nords occupied the largest portion of the Empire's army.

Source? Because weren't you the one who as going on about that Imperials were the largest portion? There has never been a claim to a majority race within the Legion.

And no you don't have the majority of support. All of the old holds are loyal the Ulfric, whiterun is neutral and only accepted troops to protect the hold and Markarth is ran by Stormcloak loyal Silver-Bloods. In true fact the only places you have a true hold over are Solitude, Falkreath and Morthal.

Jarls. That is politically. Stormcloaks and Empire have 1/4 Pro each. While the majority of Skyrim's citizens just want the war to end and things to go back to normal.

Also I wouldn't say all the Old Holds are loyal to Ulfric. Skald has driven much of his population to prefer the Empire.

No, neutrals aren't loyal to the Empire, which is why they are "neutral".., how can you make such assumptions?

The citizens who want the war to end, peace to come back, how things were before the rebellion. That means they want the status quo. Which the status quo is the Empire.

Rather ironic you insult the idea of 'with us or against us' considering that's the way the Empire is working right now, unfortunately for you guys you aren't getting your way and most of Tamriel are against you.

Insult the idea of it? With us or against us is the worst policy a religious army can have. You already enslave and segregate. You have no way to try and stop Thalmor espionage and your crap Jarls are each getting their own armies, I'm sure that will work out well. Is Ulfric Captured-Thrice going to lead you to victory? Perhaps the Jarls you've got will make good Generals.
 

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