Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Ivory said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Look at me! I'm so Superior! fluffin Hell man you manage to make yourself look like even more of a pretentious ass with each paragraph.

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I'm still waiting for a response.

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Your gettin it wait your turn.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Skies said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Oh and I suppose you weren't when you said all Nords were Stupid yes ? I'm not a bigot just someone who looks at it realistically. Its a harsh world and the Dunmer of Windhelm can learn something from their brethren in the South i.e. Riften

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Actually I never said that I asked. Because your views of racism are scene a touch. And the laws in Rotten let them properly adjust so you shower another hole in your logic. 're hee. All nords may not be stupid... but well * just starts laughing*

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They can still properly adjust in Windhelm if they tried there isn't anything really holding them back. No need for insults arsehole.

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I asked if all Nords were stupid. Just for fun I will quote myself.

Skies said:

Are all nords stupid?

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And the only person being an asshole(cause I use big person words ) Seems to be you. Now a harsh world is often made so by those who inhabit it. Like those who oppress a people because they don't support an ideology that means nothing to them( SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS! Dunmer: But we have been here over 200 years... Like literally my family was here before Red Mountain exploded...") So again, because Nords are actively preventing integration in Windhelm, unlike Riften. One must consider reasons. And it has to do with Ulfric putting in a policy where Dunmer are second class citizens. But that would mean actually reading between the lines.

Ivory said:

Raijin said:

I don't know why the Imperial supporters on this thread keep insulting the Dunmers.... oh the poor little Dunmers from windhelm is so weak and so fragile that they can't survive out in the open free from the big bad Nord oppressors. Geeze and you call Ulfric a racist! The Imperials from this thread are something else.

What do you Imperials have against the Dumers? Seriously What do you have against them? Why do you insist of calling them weak? Unable to survive out in the wilds... unable to find a fort for themselves to call home. Do you believe that these Dunmers can't fight off a group of Bandits? Here we have @Drunke


Are you telling me that these Dunmers can't win in a fight against a group of bandits to claim possession of a fort? Again What do you have against the Dunmers so much that you down right insult their combat ability? Shame on you!

At least as a Stormcloak supporter I have good faith in the Dunmers in their combat ability to handle themselves, and their survival.

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I love how you twist words in such a pathetic way in attempt to not seem like you're not part of a campaign who clearly hates elves.

You think anyone can become a fighter or KILL another mortal? That's not how it works Raijin. You're smarter than this, argue real, valid points and stop pretending to be an idiot to try and twist the words of people who are against you and winning.

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I'm not twisting anything. It is you guys (The Imperial supporters) who keeps shoving the victims card game at the Dunmers of Windhelm. You guys think they cant fight for themselves, and depend on others to do their fighting for them. I just love how you guys think that they're weak.

I'll stop "pretending" to be an idiot when you can stop pretending to be one too, and start facing reality.

Ivory said:

I'm sorry, where in Lore does it say that the Dunmer of Windhelm have slaves? Oh, I see, you're racially profiling an Entire race because Morrowind used to have Slavery. Does that mean all White people are Slave owners in America? (which btw, there were Black Slave owners too)

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The Great houses of Morrowind did indeed own slaves yes? The Dunmer of Windhelm didn't but there were people in Morrowind who did. In doing this they screwed their whole race. Also why do you keep mebtioning American Slave Owners and please give me one example of a Black one.

Ivory said:

Give me Lore evidence of this.

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter
as much as you'll argue this it is based on accounts given by people of Windhelm

Ivory said:

Yes, the Nords have waged plenty of war, but does that mean every Nord is this way? Clearly not, otherwise all of Skyrim would be against the Empire. They use the Old way as a defense for what Ulfric did. He murdered a High King which is Treason.

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yeah "Murdered" hear that all the time the Loading screen begs to differ.

Ivory said:

Again, how did they "Earn what they got?" By your logic, since all the Dunmer are apparently ex-slavers, the Elves should slaughter the Nords for causing an entire race of Elves to go extinct. Do they? Or is every nord, even the ones who are just civilians, Elf killing monsters that deserve what they get?

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The Elves did that to themselves when they decided to commit Genocide or are you forgetting The Night Of Tears

Skies said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Skies said:

Actually I never said that I asked. Because your views of racism are scene a touch. And the laws in Rotten let them properly adjust so you shower another hole in your logic. 're hee. All nords may not be stupid... but well * just starts laughing*

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They can still properly adjust in Windhelm if they tried there isn't anything really holding them back. No need for insults arsehole.

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I asked if all Nords were stupid. Just for fun I will quote myself.

Skies said:

Are all nords stupid?

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And the only person being an asshole(cause I use big person words ) Seems to be you. Now a harsh world is often made so by those who inhabit it. Like those who oppress a people because they don't support an ideology that means nothing to them( SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS! Dunmer: But we have been here over 200 years... Like literally my family was here before Red Mountain exploded...") So again, because Nords are actively preventing integration in Windhelm, unlike Riften. One must consider reasons. And it has to do with Ulfric putting in a policy where Dunmer are second class citizens. But that would mean actually reading between the lines.

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How are they preventing it? If anything they're pushing it on them. They want them to act like Nords and there you go again with your "I'm Superior" Thing again Jesus man come on get over yourself.

Are we done here?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The Great houses of Morrowind did indeed own slaves yes? The Dunmer of Windhelm didn't but there were people in Morrowind who did. In doing this they screwed their whole race. Also why do you keep mebtioning American Slave Owners and please give me one example of a Black one.

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http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter
as much as you'll argue this it is based on accounts given by people of Windhelm

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This is not Lore indicating that Ulfric's Father Babied the Dunmer. It does not speak out against the man. At all.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

yeah "Murdered" hear that all the time the Loading screen begs to differ.

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Loading_Screens Which one?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

The Elves did that to themselves when they decided to commit Genocide or are you forgetting The Night Of Tears

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So Every single last one of the Falmer deserved to be killed, do you really think that the war between the two was that Black and White? If so, then the Forsworn have the right to kill every last Nord in the Reach.

Raijin said:

Refresh because some of my post didn't show up, and so I edit my post.

Just because you didn't see their ability to fight doesn't mean that they're weak and inability to fight for themselves. And don't give me this "They can't survive" bullcrap. You're really making them look bad you know. You're trying to label them as moochers who can't defend themselves. BULLCRAP!

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Not everyone is raised to wield a sword pal. Some are raised to wield farming tools and pickaxes and smithing hammers.

Jeremius said:

Raijin said:

Refresh because some of my post didn't show up, and so I edit my post.

Just because you didn't see their ability to fight doesn't mean that they're weak and inability to fight for themselves. And don't give me this "They can't survive" bullcrap. You're really making them look bad you know. You're trying to label them as moochers who can't defend themselves. BULLCRAP!

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Not everyone is raised to wield a sword pal. Some are raised to wield farming tools and pickaxes and smithing hammers.

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So you're telling me that all of the Dunmers are wimpy farmers and miners? unable to fight for themselves?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

How are they preventing it? If anything they're pushing it on them. They want them to act like Nords and there you go again with your "I'm Superior" Thing again Jesus man come on get over yourself.

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Well I assume you understand the concept of segregation and I assume you know the concept of Redlining. Now, What does acting like Nords actually mean? Because if it means complain and scapegoat a minority of their population as Imperial spies, well hard to really do that... Or do you mean start fights so they can get into stories and songs? No wait that is counter productive...

And get over what? The fact you reduce your own arguments to fall apart like a House of Cards... Or are you implying I am superior and know it, and that I should be more humble.

Ivory said:

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

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Well you learn something new everyday

Ivory said:

This is not Lore indicating that Ulfric's Father Babied the Dunmer. It does not speak out against the man. At all.

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"Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities Argonian population as well" a Soft Hand is not a good trait for a Nord Jarl.

Ivory said:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Loading_Screens Which one?

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The one that says "Ulfric recently killed the High king"

Ivory said:

So Every single last one of the Falmer deserved to be killed, do you really think that the war between the two was that Black and White? If so, then the Forsworn have the right to kill every last Nord in the Reach.

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Every last one of the Falmer wasn't killed and even so to The Nords they brought it on themselves when they attacked Saarthaal and slaughtered everyone within unprovoked without ANY warning.

Skies said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

How are they preventing it? If anything they're pushing it on them. They want them to act like Nords and there you go again with your "I'm Superior" Thing again Jesus man come on get over yourself.

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Well I assume you understand the concept of segregation and I assume you know the concept of Redlining. Now, What does acting like Nords actually mean? Because if it means complain and scapegoat a minority of their population as Imperial spies, well hard to really do that... Or do you mean start fights so they can get into stories and songs? No wait that is counter productive...

And get over what? The fact you reduce your own arguments to fall apart like a House of Cards... Or are you implying I am superior and know it, and that I should be more humble.

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First of all that's one or two Nords second I assume your'e aware That one of them is actually an Imperial Officer

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

"Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities Argonian population as well" a Soft Hand is not a good trait for a Nord Jarl.

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Under what judgement? Yours? Sorry man, but you can't say "A soft nord is a weak nord". That's purely opinion and Not a lore based explanation that Ulfric's Father babied the Dunmer, especially when this quote has to do with Argonian.

Ivory said:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Loading_Screens Which one?

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The one that says "Ulfric recently killed the High king"

Which is where? I can't find it, besides. Definition of Murder.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

He broke Imperial Law. He accepts that, which means accepting that he committed Treason and murdered his King.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Every last one of the Falmer wasn't killed and even so to The Nords they brought it on themselves when they attacked Saarthaal and slaughtered everyone within unprovoked without ANY warning.

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I ask again, does this mean you are okay with the Forsworn slaughtering your Nordic brethren to take back what was theirs?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

First of all that's one or two Nords second I assume your'e aware That one of them is actually an Imperial Officer

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I would also assume you would be so kind as to support your claims with actual links lest I waste my time explaining how things work when you are forced into squander.

Because if you are talking about someone who doesnt exist, you get Suvaris Atheron who worked for pirates... Against the East Empire Company...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Suvaris_Atheron's_Logbook
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Suvaris_Atheron

Raijin said:

Jeremius said:

Raijin said:

Refresh because some of my post didn't show up, and so I edit my post.

Just because you didn't see their ability to fight doesn't mean that they're weak and inability to fight for themselves. And don't give me this "They can't survive" bullcrap. You're really making them look bad you know. You're trying to label them as moochers who can't defend themselves. BULLCRAP!

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Not everyone is raised to wield a sword pal. Some are raised to wield farming tools and pickaxes and smithing hammers.

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So you're telling me that all of the Dunmers are wimpy farmers and miners? unable to fight for themselves?

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I am saying that neither you, nor anyone else, can say anything on their combat skills because you do not know if they have any.

Hey guys! I'm back and -




Now I'm gone again.

Skies said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

First of all that's one or two Nords second I assume your'e aware That one of them is actually an Imperial Officer

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I would also assume you would be so kind as to support your claims with actual links lest I waste my time explaining how things work when you are forced into squander.

Because if you are talking about someone who doesnt exist, you get Suvaris Atheron who worked for pirates... Against the East Empire Company...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Suvaris_Atheron's_Logbook
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Suvaris_Atheron

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I'm sorry what? The person you're looking for is Ambarys Rendar

Ivory said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

"Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities Argonian population as well" a Soft Hand is not a good trait for a Nord Jarl.

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Under what judgement? Yours? Sorry man, but you can't say "A soft nord is a weak nord". That's purely opinion and Not a lore based explanation that Ulfric's Father babied the Dunmer, especially when this quote has to do with Argonian.

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Yes I can. Given with what Nords Value and what they cherish I can imagine that being soft is being weak that's synonymous with it anyway.

Ivory said:

Which is where? I can't find it, besides. Definition of Murder.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
He broke Imperial Law. He accepts that, which means accepting that he committed Treason and murdered his King.

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However he challenged him to a duel and he accepted making it no longer murder and rather a kill

Ivory said:

I ask again, does this mean you are okay with the Forsworn slaughtering your Nordic brethren to take back what was theirs?

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We shouldn't be in the Reach at all so kind of.

Well Im done for the night Ill respond tomorrow when Im more physically able

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Docta Corvina said:

And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration? It's not like they just were dropped there when the war began, they've been there since the Red Mountain erupted almost 200 years prior to the game's current events. If you're not able to live freely in the city, then all you're left with is moving to another one (assuming you can afford to) or staying put in the corner of town you're allowed in. I don't see why they need to be working for Nords in order to get respect.

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My problem here is that the Dunmer situation is tied to Ulfric. Like you said they've been there for 200 years How does that have anything to do with Ulfric, have they always been segregated, or have they never been segregated, and just all prefer to live in the Dunmer half of the City. Its all weird confusing and not elaborated on enough in the game. And its just like Belyn said "The only way to earn the respect of the Nords is through Hard Work."

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It's tied to Ulfric because he's the current Jarl and he alone has the power to change it. When the Red Mountain erupted 200 years ago, the Dunmer were initially taken in as refugees. There is actually a monument at Refugees' Rest that reads:

This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.

Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

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I agree that the timeline isn't as clear as it could and should be, and it's probably on purpose. But what we do know is that as Jarl, Ulfric has the ability to do something about changing the law - and he certainly should have been listening to his subjects' plight well before now. He didn't become Jarl overnight. And he is responsible for the Argonians' mandated segregation.

As for the hard work quote, again, he and others can continue working hard all they want. But the law is the law until the Jarl rescinds it. It doesn't matter if they win over the Rolffs and the Angrenors. They have to matter to the Hold's ruler. And it's harder to swallow the racial mandates when Windhelm is unique in having them. Obviously the ordinances against the Khajiit are more or less universal in the current timeframe, but Windhelm goes the extra mile. And that's why it has people's attention, especially as the Stormcloak capital.