Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Jeremius · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Jeremius said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Because the others aren't pulling their weight. That's the only reason. If the others actually decide to maybe bite their tongue and do some work for the Nords maybe they could be treated a little better. Rolf (Hate quoting this guy) even says himself:
"They're living in our city, under our protection, but what do they do for us? Nothing!" I know hes generalizing and is wrong about people like Suvaris and Bellyn

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like 99% of the guy's dialogue is racist and untrue. You can never trust him. Plus, you do not know anything about them. Maybe they want jobs but can't find anything that matches any skills they have.

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I'm sure they would be complaining about not being able to find a job if they were actually looking.

I am also sure that if they can find jobs, it would not be enough to pay for anything they need so they would still have to complain to the Jarl about it, who will still ignore them and blindly expect them to magically understand that he is too busy to even promise to listen to their complaints either.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Docta Corvina said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Docta Corvina said:

It's much harder to integrate fully into any society when you're racially marginalized.

Additionally, even if they somehow did all manage to work for the Shatter-Shields...how is this going to change the law? Ulfric has the power to address things. No one is saying he can snap his fingers and make everything clean and new and shiny in the Gray Quarter in one night. But he can start by changing the law and listening to his subjects.

The Dunmer seem on the whole to be employed, as it is. It's not a matter of them being destitute and wanting handouts. They may be bitter, and understandably so, but they do work for what they have.

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But NOT employed by Nords. Its a lot harder for them to integrate fully into society because now they actually have to EARN respect as opposed to integrating when they got there in the first place. Also, I don't suggest they only work for the Shatter Shields, just Nords in general. Luafynn is a Bard in the Mead Hall, She's not disrespected, and from what I can tell Suvaris isn't actually disrespected by the Nords as a whole, Rather just the two racists around the corner, which by the way, you'll always have regardless of laws put into a city. When in Rome, Do as the Romans. When in Skyrim, do as the Nords. You'll be just fine.

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It seems to me that if they're following the law and working, they should be getting not only basic respect but the same freedoms others have in the city. That's the crux of the matter - even if Rolff took a blow to the head and started loving and adoring Dunmer, they're still treated differently in a manner that Ulfric himself could change but won't. The Dunmer who's doing comparatively better financially still can only live in the slums because that's the only place he's allowed to live in Windhelm. Yeah, maybe he could afford to move between cities - but the point is that he shouldn't have to.

Really, I don't think that being Stormcloak-aligned means one has to try to defend the state that Windhelm finds itself in. You can support the overall cause and still think that they're getting it wrong in that city.

But WHERE in the city can he live? Seriously give me an answer. Also why can't they integrate? Why is it so hard for them?

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Jeremius said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Jeremius said:

like 99% of the guy's dialogue is racist and untrue. You can never trust him. Plus, you do not know anything about them. Maybe they want jobs but can't find anything that matches any skills they have.

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I'm sure they would be complaining about not being able to find a job if they were actually looking.

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I am also sure that if they can find jobs, it would not be enough to pay for anything they need so they would still have to complain to the Jarl about it, who will still ignore them and blindly expect them to magically understand that he is too busy to even promise to listen to their complaints either.

The fact is none of them are looking, at all. They'd rather run their own businesses. Which is fine if you want to be treated like dirt the rest of your life.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

DrunkenMage said:
Why do they all need to work for Nords? Are you saying Dunmer are being disrespected for being able to have their own businesses? That is foolish, what is so wrong about some Dunmer working on their own and succeeding?

I'm sorry, but this argument is a straw man. They should all work for Nords in general, instead of being able to own a business and thus pay taxes to the city.

Windhelm prospers more from the Dunmer having businesses than it would from all Dunmer just working for Nords.

for fluff sakes "Straw Man" cool use that.Running your own business is fine if you wanted to be treated like plops the rest of your life.

Seanu Reaves · Jul 2, 2014

That makes little to no sense. Starting your own business is one of the bravest things Anyone bellow rich can attempt. You are saying they should be low level labor instead of trying to survive on their own?

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

DrunkenMage said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

That's why I said I hate quoting him. But if you please look around you'll see at least five Dunmer who aren't and maybe one of those who could be considered breaking the Law. If those five actually tried to integrate and stopped living in Little Morrowind over there maybe they wouldn't have as many problems. When in Skyrim, do as the Nords. An old saying my friend. Also, Like I've said before, they would do the same thing to you if you were in Morrowind so why are you spending so much time trying to defend Slave owners.

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What five Dunmer? Give names. I don't see how you could even say they don't pull their weight, since they feed and clothe themselves. The city doesn't give them money or food, they get all that themselves.

Stop living in little Morrowind? Because they have a corner club? They all work, some for Nords, others are able to own their own things. What do you exactly mean by integrate? Jarls before Ulfric were quite kind to them, their issues came when Ulfric became Jarl.

They're not slave owners... They haven't practiced slavery in over two hundred years after they released all the slaves. They're about as much slavers as Americans are today.

Ambarys Rendar, Malthyr Elenil, Aval Atheron, Revyn Sadri. all right you got me there 4 sorry Drunken 4.

I mean blend in with society. As in maybe stop with all the Flags around. It doesn't bug me but to have it in a city like Windhelm? C'mon you're asking for trouble.

They certainly were and they would fall into the habit again if the Argonians didn't kick the piss out of them. You know what, They should be allowed in they certainly deserve it more than those 4.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Skies said:
That makes little to no sense. Starting your own business is one of the bravest things Anyone bellow rich can attempt. You are saying they should be low level labor instead of trying to survive on their own?

I'm saying they're going to be treated like that if they flaunt it around it doesn't help their situation.

Seanu Reaves · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Skies said:

That makes little to no sense. Starting your own business is one of the bravest things Anyone bellow rich can attempt. You are saying they should be low level labor instead of trying to survive on their own?

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I'm saying they're going to be treated like that if they flaunt it around it doesn't help their situation.

Only people I see flaunting in Windhelm are Nords. Dark Elves are to busy working under duress. I am going to not insulted your intelligence and assume you know what flaunting means and that you are using an obscure definition that escapes my knowledge. You are say I they are going to be treated badly no matter what they do... So you effectively ruin your own point with poor word choice. Truth is they are just trying to live normal lives. Yet you say they are flaunting. That means you think nothing short of slavery would suffice? The are just downtrodden and moving forward, which seems to bother people, yet they are still discriminated against because they dont want part of something that has little to so with them.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Skies said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Skies said:

That makes little to no sense. Starting your own business is one of the bravest things Anyone bellow rich can attempt. You are saying they should be low level labor instead of trying to survive on their own?

Click to expand...

I'm saying they're going to be treated like that if they flaunt it around it doesn't help their situation.

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Only people I see flaunting in Windhelm are Nords. Dark Elves are to busy working under duress. I am going to not insulted your intelligence and assume you know what flaunting means and that you are using an obscure definition that escapes my knowledge. You are say I they are going to be treated badly no matter what they do... So you effectively ruin your own point with poor word choice. Truth is they are just trying to live normal lives. Yet you say they are flaunting. That means you think nothing short of slavery would suffice? The are just downtrodden and moving forward, which seems to bother people, yet they are still discriminated against because they dont want part of something that has little to so with them.

Some of them don't want to even try to integrate. That's the problem. Don't you think if they maybe tried to do something about their situation other than bellyache to the Jarl that maybe, just maybe, They could achieve something. They want to keep a little piece of Morrowind at hand and I get that, But doing things like hoisting Dunmer flags, in Windhelm of all cities, publiclly is asking for trouble from the local populace. Its also worth noting that you would be treated the same way if not worse in Morrowind.

Docta Corvina · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Docta Corvina said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

But NOT employed by Nords. Its a lot harder for them to integrate fully into society because now they actually have to EARN respect as opposed to integrating when they got there in the first place. Also, I don't suggest they only work for the Shatter Shields, just Nords in general. Luafynn is a Bard in the Mead Hall, She's not disrespected, and from what I can tell Suvaris isn't actually disrespected by the Nords as a whole, Rather just the two racists around the corner, which by the way, you'll always have regardless of laws put into a city. When in Rome, Do as the Romans. When in Skyrim, do as the Nords. You'll be just fine.

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It seems to me that if they're following the law and working, they should be getting not only basic respect but the same freedoms others have in the city. That's the crux of the matter - even if Rolff took a blow to the head and started loving and adoring Dunmer, they're still treated differently in a manner that Ulfric himself could change but won't. The Dunmer who's doing comparatively better financially still can only live in the slums because that's the only place he's allowed to live in Windhelm. Yeah, maybe he could afford to move between cities - but the point is that he shouldn't have to.

Really, I don't think that being Stormcloak-aligned means one has to try to defend the state that Windhelm finds itself in. You can support the overall cause and still think that they're getting it wrong in that city.

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But WHERE in the city can he live? Seriously give me an answer. Also why can't they integrate? Why is it so hard for them?

Right now, he can live in the Gray Quarter - and that's it. Unless he pulls up stakes. If you're trying to get me to account for available living space throughout the city, that's never been something anyone has attributed the racial laws in Windhelm to (if I've missed dialogue, please point it out to me). It's not been presented as a reason why the Dunmer are isolated. And it still is a separate issue from having the legal right to live outside of the Gray Quarter, which is what they lack.

And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration? It's not like they just were dropped there when the war began, they've been there since the Red Mountain erupted almost 200 years prior to the game's current events. If you're not able to live freely in the city, then all you're left with is moving to another one (assuming you can afford to) or staying put in the corner of town you're allowed in. I don't see why they need to be working for Nords in order to get respect.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Docta Corvina said:
And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration? It's not like they just were dropped there when the war began, they've been there since the Red Mountain erupted almost 200 years prior to the game's current events. If you're not able to live freely in the city, then all you're left with is moving to another one (assuming you can afford to) or staying put in the corner of town you're allowed in. I don't see why they need to be working for Nords in order to get respect.

My problem here is that the Dunmer situation is tied to Ulfric. Like you said they've been there for 200 years How does that have anything to do with Ulfric, have they always been segregated, or have they never been segregated, and just all prefer to live in the Dunmer half of the City. Its all weird confusing and not elaborated on enough in the game. And its just like Belyn said "The only way to earn the respect of the Nords is through Hard Work."

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Docta Corvina said:
And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration?

Because they're all little Dunmer shops in The Biggest Nord centered city in Skyrim. To the Nords that could be seen as not integrating.

Seanu Reaves · Jul 2, 2014

Are all nords stupid?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Docta Corvina said:

And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration?

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Because they're all little Dunmer shops in The Biggest Nord centered city in Skyrim. To the Nords that could be seen as not integrating.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Skies said:
Are all nords stupid?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Docta Corvina said:

And how is working for an employer or running one's own business not efforts at integration?

Click to expand...

Because they're all little Dunmer shops in The Biggest Nord centered city in Skyrim. To the Nords that could be seen as not integrating.

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See now that could be considered racist but since I'm not a prissy bitch elf I wont complain.

Jeremius · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Jeremius said:

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

I'm sure they would be complaining about not being able to find a job if they were actually looking.

Click to expand...

I am also sure that if they can find jobs, it would not be enough to pay for anything they need so they would still have to complain to the Jarl about it, who will still ignore them and blindly expect them to magically understand that he is too busy to even promise to listen to their complaints either.

Click to expand...

The fact is none of them are looking, at all. They'd rather run their own businesses. Which is fine if you want to be treated like dirt the rest of your life.

So to be respected, you have to work for a race you do not like? you can't earn respect by simply working, you have to essentially enslave yourself to the Nords to get respect?

Seems like you have a racist mind.

Seanu Reaves · Jul 2, 2014

answer here he is just a bigot.

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Skies said:

Are all nords stupid?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Because they're all little Dunmer shops in The Biggest Nord centered city in Skyrim. To the Nords that could be seen as not integrating.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

See now that could be considered racist but since I'm not a prissy bitch elf I wont complain.

Jeremius said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Jeremius said:

I am also sure that if they can find jobs, it would not be enough to pay for anything they need so they would still have to complain to the Jarl about it, who will still ignore them and blindly expect them to magically understand that he is too busy to even promise to listen to their complaints either.

Click to expand...

The fact is none of them are looking, at all. They'd rather run their own businesses. Which is fine if you want to be treated like dirt the rest of your life.

Click to expand...

So to be respected, you have to work for a race you do not like? you can't earn respect by simply working, you have to essentially enslave yourself to the Nords to get respect?

Seems like you have a racist mind.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Jeremius said:
Mikulas Black-Blade said:

Jeremius said:

I am also sure that if they can find jobs, it would not be enough to pay for anything they need so they would still have to complain to the Jarl about it, who will still ignore them and blindly expect them to magically understand that he is too busy to even promise to listen to their complaints either.

Click to expand...

The fact is none of them are looking, at all. They'd rather run their own businesses. Which is fine if you want to be treated like dirt the rest of your life.

Click to expand...

So to be respected, you have to work for a race you do not like? you can't earn respect by simply working, you have to essentially enslave yourself to the Nords to get respect?

Seems like you have a racist mind.

Welcome to Skyrim buddy and No they don't have to "enslave" themselves but they can bite their pride and do some work for the city. Oh, and yes Im aware the Nords are very prideful as well but this is their city not the Dunmer's. You'd think they knew that by now.

Mikulas Black-Blade · Jul 2, 2014

Skies said:
answer here he is just a bigot

Oh and I suppose you weren't when you said all Nords were Stupid yes?

I'm not a bigot just someone who looks at it realistically. Its a harsh world and the Dunmer of Windhelm can learn something from their brethren in the South i.e. Riften

Seanu Reaves · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Oh and I suppose you weren't when you said all Nords were Stupid yes ? I'm not a bigot just someone who looks at it realistically. Its a harsh world and the Dunmer of Windhelm can learn something from their brethren in the South i.e. Riften

Actually I never said that I asked. Because your views of racism are scene a touch. And the laws in Rotten let them properly adjust so you shower another hole in your logic. 're hee. All nords may not be stupid... but well * just starts laughing*

Ivory · Jul 2, 2014

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
Ambarys Rendar, Malthyr Elenil, Aval Atheron, Revyn Sadri. all right you got me there 4 sorry Drunken 4.

Ambarys Rendar- Innkeeper
Malthyr Elenil- Pawnbroker
Aval Atheron- Pawnbroker
Revyn Sadri- A Warrior who OWNS A SHOP

So how are these people not pulling their weight?

Mikulas Black-Blade said:
I mean blend in with society. As in maybe stop with all the Flags around. It doesn't bug me but to have it in a city like Windhelm? C'mon you're asking for trouble.

Are you the type of American that thinks people who burn the American Flag or Hang up their own from their heritage shouldn't do so? As in, oppressing others?

Bruma is a city in the Imperial Province HEAVY shown with influences of Nordic Culture. Should the Imperials be allowed to disgrace the Nords for being proud in the Imperial Province?

Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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