DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Really? I'd say the same, but after the recent arguments of Vampires and something with the Vigil of Stendarr... I can't exactly hope for a decent topic.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Really? I'd say the same, but after the recent arguments of Vampires and something with the Vigil of Stendarr... I can't exactly hope for a decent topic.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm going to merge your post with Ivory so read my reply from him to get my response.
Wrong. Ulfric did not inflict the life and death injury that Skyrim sustained. The Thalmor have free rein over Skyrim because of the treaty that the empire had signed to end the war. Ulfric's people (The Nords) are being legally slaughtered in their own lands without the protection from the Empire. The Empire gave the Thalmor the authority to arrest and to exterminate any talos worshipers because it was part of the agreement for ending the war.
Do you expect someone like Ulfric to just put up with this nonsense?
The Dunmers have a strong pair of legs they can use to walk out of Windhelm and go else where. And the Argonian's do have privacy. They lock their doors late at night, and the only way you can gain access inside is to pick the lock.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
Because the others aren't pulling their weight. That's the only reason. If the others actually decide to maybe bite their tongue and do some work for the Nords maybe they could be treated a little better. Rolf (Hate quoting this guy) even says himself:
"They're living in our city, under our protection, but what do they do for us? Nothing!" I know hes generalizing and is wrong about people like Suvaris and Bellyn
J
Jeremius
Guest
like 99% of the guy's dialogue is racist and untrue. You can never trust him. Plus, you do not know anything about them. Maybe they want jobs but can't find anything that matches any skills they have.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
So no one has any information.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Not really. All anyone has is what they see, and that does not tell you the whole story often, I have found.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Really?
What Rolff says is bullplops. The Dunmer all work, their businesses pay taxes. Who doesn't "pull their weight"? Give me an example of at least one Dunmer who doesn't do anything and is apparently a burden as you Stormcloak supporters mentioned a bit in the last few pages.
I wouldn't take what Rolff says as fact, since he himself doesn't even do anything. Also, he is contradicted by what we see of the Dunmer.
If anyone isn't pulling their weight it is some Nords in Windhelm.
Epic Keith
By Ysmir you're going to FREEZE to death!
I come back to this thread and it's exactly the same way I left it.
Retarded arguments and Stormcloaks are for some reason trying to win against Mage.
Retarded arguments and Stormcloaks are for some reason trying to win against Mage.
J
Jeremius
Guest
They just want attention because they need the glory love.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
It's much harder to integrate fully into any society when you're racially marginalized.
Additionally, even if they somehow did all manage to work for the Shatter-Shields...how is this going to change the law? Ulfric has the power to address things. No one is saying he can snap his fingers and make everything clean and new and shiny in the Gray Quarter in one night. But he can start by changing the law and listening to his subjects.
The Dunmer seem on the whole to be employed, as it is. It's not a matter of them being destitute and wanting handouts. They may be bitter, and understandably so, but they do work for what they have.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Actually, I've seen several people in this thread and elsewhere try to argue that if the Dunmer just supported or outright joined the Stormcloaks, then that would earn them respect.
This always brings us back to the point that Ulfric's rule didn't start at the same time as the civil war, these conditions for the Dunmer have been in the works for some time. It's in Ulfric's power to rescind the law that relegates the Dunmer to a specific place - as well as rescind the law that keeps the Argonians out of the city altogether (the latter definitely being his law). Even though, you know, they're the ones doing the hard labor the Nords themselves say they don't want to do and pay exceedingly little for.
Windhelm could take some lessons from Riften, which is also governed by a Stormcloak-aligned Nord, but doesn't have any racial policies against the Dunmer or Argonians, and in which the races seem to be coexisting. You can't convince me this is a Stormcloak or war-necessitated thing. Ulfric has everything to gain from trying to build coalitions with those within his Hold's borders. But he just doesn't care. He's made that evident.
Ivory
Let's Player
The Thalmor were NOT arresting people in Skyrim until Ulfric agitated about it, we know this from Hadvar's Uncle and other NPCs. Nobody had much issue with the treaty. Did everyone dislike it? Yes. But as we've said hundreds of times, the Empire and it's provinces were looking for peace at any cost. Ulfric brought the Thalmor's attention to Skyrim and is systematically responsible for the deaths of every Nord at the hands of the Thalmor.
Oh and also, it's not just the Nords suffering at the Thalmor's hands. There are other races in the Thalmor prison where you rescue the Stormcloak Brother.
I have a strong pair of legs, you have a strong pair of legs. Can you walk out on everything you own with just the clothes on your back because you can't afford to move what you do own? I seriously doubt it.Plus With dragons, trolls, bandits wolves and monstrous creatures?
You focus too much on what the Dragonborn is able to do, you forget how still very mortal everyone is. People die from disease, starvation and are murdered constantly by bandits.
We all know Ulfric sends his army to attack bandits that prey on Nords, but Argonian and Dunmer? Forget it, they are left to the wolves.
As the Dragonborn, can you tell me you've walked all the way to Riften, Whiterun, Winterhold or even Ivarstead without being attacked by a single thing?
Packs of hunters are slaughtered by one or two spriggan, a Cave bear can kill us faster than a dragon when we aren't high level. Even in our society, bears are some of the most dangerous man eaters around. Caravans are attacked and razed to the ground by Falmer, Bandits and that's not to mention the dangerous Vampire threat that plagues Skyrim.
With the Events of Dawnguard, the Vampires break into CITIES and slaughter anyone they find. Will Ulfric protect the "Lazy, overbearing" Dunmer if that happened? Realistically? Don't be so blind.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I like that the Legion does more than the Stormcloaks. They patrol, lead prisoners, escort nobles and attack Forsworn camps.
Legion soldiers you encounter are; Breton, Redguard, Imperial and Nord. I enjoy that diversity.
Legion soldiers you encounter are; Breton, Redguard, Imperial and Nord. I enjoy that diversity.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
I'm sure they would be complaining about not being able to find a job if they were actually looking.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
But NOT employed by Nords. Its a lot harder for them to integrate fully into society because now they actually have to EARN respect as opposed to integrating when they got there in the first place. Also, I don't suggest they only work for the Shatter Shields, just Nords in general. Luafynn is a Bard in the Mead Hall, She's not disrespected, and from what I can tell Suvaris isn't actually disrespected by the Nords as a whole, Rather just the two racists around the corner, which by the way, you'll always have regardless of laws put into a city. When in Rome, Do as the Romans. When in Skyrim, do as the Nords. You'll be just fine.
Mikulas Black-Blade
The Cave Bear
That's why I said I hate quoting him. But if you please look around you'll see at least five Dunmer who aren't and maybe one of those who could be considered breaking the Law. If those five actually tried to integrate and stopped living in Little Morrowind over there maybe they wouldn't have as many problems. When in Skyrim, do as the Nords. An old saying my friend. Also, Like I've said before, they would do the same thing to you if you were in Morrowind so why are you spending so much time trying to defend Slave owners.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Thalmor's increased presence is a direct result of the rebellion, so Nords who were able to worship in secret are in danger because of Ulfric's actions.
All those Talos worshipers weren't in danger of being slaughtered until the Stormcloaks started their rebellion proper.
"Ulfric's people" are also being illegally slaughtered because of the Stormcloak rebellion. Bandits have free reign to do whatever they like, raiding farms, attacking caravans, people along the roads etc. Because all the soldiers/guards are fighting or are in military camps. What went from a few people who were very public about Talos worship going to jail, has now become suffering of both secret worshipers and normal civilians from bandits. And the issues caused by the bandits are ironically many times worse than what the Thalmor were doing.
The Stormcloak rebellion took one issue that wasn't large for decades and have caused a massive chain reaction, that now causes everyone to suffer.
The Thalmor the Empire allowed to enforce the ban was bad enough. But the bandits the Stormcloaks allowed to get a foot hold, is a lot worse. So say what you will about the Talos Ban and Thalmor Justiciars, because your side actually created a bigger problem than we did. Bandits don't care if you worship Talos or not, they'll kill you and take your things.
More Nords die from the Civil War than by Thalmor hands anyway.
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that if they're following the law and working, they should be getting not only basic respect but the same freedoms others have in the city. That's the crux of the matter - even if Rolff took a blow to the head and started loving and adoring Dunmer, they're still treated differently in a manner that Ulfric himself could change but won't. The Dunmer who's doing comparatively better financially still can only live in the slums because that's the only place he's allowed to live in Windhelm. Yeah, maybe he could afford to move between cities - but the point is that he shouldn't have to.
Really, I don't think that being Stormcloak-aligned means one has to try to defend the state that Windhelm finds itself in. You can support the overall cause and still think that they're getting it wrong in that city.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
What five Dunmer? Give names. I don't see how you could even say they don't pull their weight, since they feed and clothe themselves. The city doesn't give them money or food, they get all that themselves.
Stop living in little Morrowind? Because they have a corner club? They all work, some for Nords, others are able to own their own things. What do you exactly mean by integrate? Jarls before Ulfric were quite kind to them, their issues came when Ulfric became Jarl.
They're not slave owners... They haven't practiced slavery in over two hundred years after they released all the slaves. They're about as much slavers as Americans are today.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Why do they all need to work for Nords? Are you saying Dunmer are being disrespected for being able to have their own businesses? That is foolish, what is so wrong about some Dunmer working on their own and succeeding?
I'm sorry, but this argument is a straw man. They should all work for Nords in general, instead of being able to own a business and thus pay taxes to the city.
Windhelm prospers more from the Dunmer having businesses than it would from all Dunmer just working for Nords.
