Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Heimskr goes to jail.

It isn't so bad, I visit him and leave him copies of 'The Talos Mistake' for reading material. ;)
 

Vatonage

Joyeuse et Glorieuse
"Your eminence, my scrying has suggested nothing in the area. Dragon Bridge is under imperial control. This is likely superstitious nonsense." - Sybille

The Court Wizard didn't detect anything (Most likely due to the powerful nature of the Necromancer Coven) You say he has evidence, but nothing major. Certainly not something to divert limited guards to go on a possible wild goose chase. He already says with the war he had to prioritize, he has reports of lights and apparently travelers disappearing. Which could indicate bandits or wild animals.

Sybille is a vampire. Its likely she was trying to misdirect the court for her own ends. She could have been a follower of Potema, or wanted her rising for other reasons.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
"Your eminence, my scrying has suggested nothing in the area. Dragon Bridge is under imperial control. This is likely superstitious nonsense." - Sybille

The Court Wizard didn't detect anything (Most likely due to the powerful nature of the Necromancer Coven) You say he has evidence, but nothing major. Certainly not something to divert limited guards to go on a possible wild goose chase. He already says with the war he had to prioritize, he has reports of lights and apparently travelers disappearing. Which could indicate bandits or wild animals.

Sybille is a vampire. Its likely she was trying to misdirect the court for her own ends. She could have been a follower of Potema, or wanted her rising for other reasons.


Or, you know, it is just a game and has no bearing on real life.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Sybille is a vampire. Its likely she was trying to misdirect the court for her own ends. She could have been a follower of Potema, or wanted her rising for other reasons.

Except there is nothing to suggest she is trying to misdirect the court, or even is a follower of Potema. Something on that scale is generally hinted at, has notes mentioning the fact on their person or in their residence.

Just because she is a vampire, it doesn't mean she has an obvious evil intention. The Count of Skingrad was a vampire, he didn't have any sinister plots. Lore wise there are plenty of vampires who make their home in the bureaucracy of the Empire.

If there was something more incriminating, then maybe. "She's a vampire" isn't enough to suggest she is aiding the necromancers.
 

The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass

Sahrot Vahlok Spaan. Bahnahgaar. Minion #88!
Staff member
You are completely missing the point. They are not saying, "SHIP THEM ALL OFF!" They are saying if the dunmer do not like living in Windhelm, THEY HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MOVE.

Except they don't have the ability to leave safely. They can't afford to pack up and exit, even if they wanted to.

That freedom to leave is an illusion, to believe otherwise is just illogical. They have friends and families in the Gray Quarter, they're low income and can't simply walk out.

Let's say you have some Grandparents, they have lived in their house for many years, decades. Now comes a new person next door, plays loud music, insults them, threatens them etc. They don't have money to go buy a new house elsewhere.

By the current logic in this thread, they should quit their bitching and simply piss off if they're not happy.
Except for the fact, once again, that they could get a job (similar to the dunmer and high elf, as well as the argonians who live there and function), earn their own money, pool it together, and afford supplies and even an escort.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
Except for the fact, once again, that they could get a job (similar to the dunmer and high elf, as well as the argonians who live there and function), earn their own money, pool it together, and afford supplies and even an escort.

They barely get any jobs, and business is slow in Windhelm, especially for Dunmer. In fact, Suvaris is the only one employed by a Nord.
And afford supplies or escorts? Well you're funny. If you haven't noticed, there's a war going on and supplies get plucked away from soldiers who consider themselves to be 'heroes' and therefore have the right to take what they need.

They stayed at the inn, but didn't pay. They said soldiers don't need to pay because they're risking their lives to protect us. And that's not all. They took a heap of our lumber, and one tried to have his way with my daughter. They think they can do whatever they want.

Besides, there isn't going to be a lot of stuff concerning food around Windhelm anyway unless you're crazy enough to hunt in a blizzard. If they ever had the means to afford supplies there's the chance they'd need it for their survival.

And don't use High Elves - probably hinting at Niranye - as an "example of elves being productive". She's a fence, has underground contacts, there's a good chance she bribed guards etc. Argonians? Seriously? Do you think they live outside the walls because they wanted to?
They've been locked out. To avoid conflict with the Dunmer probably, but they're still facing harassment from Nords as well.

Even the smallest among them. All the Argonians at the docks are nice to me. Good thing, too, or father would run them off!
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Except for the fact, once again, that they could get a job (similar to the dunmer and high elf, as well as the argonians who live there and function), earn their own money, pool it together, and afford supplies and even an escort.

If Jarl Balgruuf can barely afford food supplies and soldiers, the Dunmer are suddenly going to pay for it all on their low end jobs?

The Dunmer do have jobs, it isn't a case of "Well get a job" they work. What little money they do earn would have to go towards their food and clothes, they'd hardly have enough to fund that kind of journey.

In fact, Suvaris is the only one employed by a Nord.

Faryl Atheron is employed by Bolfrida and Idesa Sadri is employed by Clan Cruel-Sea.

"All the jobs" aren't taken. Its a matter of Pride. If they wanted to earn the respect of the Nords they could work for the Cruel-Seas or the Shatter-Shields, That'd certainly give them a bit more leverage, but no, they refuse.

There is Dunmer working for Cruel-Seas and Shatter-Shields... So that kind of backfired on you?
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Maybe, but Perhaps they would also hate the Stormcloaks even more for bellyaching and discriminating against them just because they do not fight for Talos.

If you want to see true discrimination you might want to head on over to the vigilant of stendarr headquarters. I've seen so many of these folks chasing after vampires with their maces, and beating the crap outta them as they beg for mercy. When the vampire is cowardly submitting to them they show no mercy and still beat the crap out of them.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Maybe, but Perhaps they would also hate the Stormcloaks even more for bellyaching and discriminating against them just because they do not fight for Talos.

If you want to see true discrimination you might want to head on over to the vigilant of stendarr headquarters. I've seen so many of these folks chasing after vampires with their maces, and beating the crap outta them as they beg for mercy. When the vampire is cowardly submitting to them they show no mercy and still beat the crap out of them.

Yeah, but they actually tell you there is no mercy before they beat you. "Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the Vigil have none to spare." So is it really surprising they don't show mercy after they've just mentioned not showing mercy?

What do you expect from some inquisition fanatic militia? Why is the Vigil relevant anyway, they make no secret of not being nice.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
I don't remember this particular scene you're discussing here. I always follow Ralof and I was never in the position where it was necessary to kill these 2 Stormcloaks whom you're bringing up. I don't recall ever seeing a Stormcloak torturing an Imperial solider. On the other hand you brought up the quote of where Hadvar said "These bastards call themselves Imperial Legionnaires..." and you clearly ignored my comment about Hadvar's lack of loyalty to the Legion by not doing a damn thing, and brought up some lame excuse to try to debunk what I originally said.

Like I said before, and I will c/p what I wrote on my previous thread...

I'm glad you've mention that scenario with Hadvar because his lack of action causing the death of his fellow comrades was on the borderline of treason. He just stood there and done nothing while his prisoner slaughtered them to bits. How can he say those words when he refuses to give a helping hand to his own? What kind of Legionnaire just stands there while his prisoner is slaughtering his kind? Unbelievable!

You can attack the two Stormcloaks without any problems from Ralof. Hadvar makes those comments when the two Legion torturers are dead, either by your hand or the Stormcloaks.

Maybe so but the Thalmor is highly interested in taking over Skyrim at this very moment, as they clearly indicated in their battle dialogue. They also want to enslave the Nords by making them as thralls.

Are they going to take over an entire province from a single embassy with Justiciars? The Thalmor don't number that high in Skyrim, they want to take over Tamriel. They need to defeat the Empire's armies on their border before they can even think about taking over Skyrim.

The companions aren't fighting this war because they're not into the political aspects of Skyrim, and to be quite frank I don't understand why you're bringing them up when were clearly discussing about the Dunmers in Windhelm. The Companions are very valuable in the contribution to society. What has the Dunmers of windhelm ever did to Skyrim that deserve such respect? What have they done to Windhelm that requires Ulfrics top attention? Can you tell me that?

I brought up the Companions because they're not fighting in the Civil War because it isn't their fight. So why should the Dunmer pick up a blade in Ulfric's name?

The Dunmer in Windhelm work and provide a service for Windhelm, they're not begging or depending on the local government to feed and clothe them.

Like I said before the Dunmers should count their blessings for getting this far, and to be safe and secured inside of a strong walled city.

Really? Shame the Argonians can't agree to that. Windhelm is a harsh city and it is very cold. Run down buildings can lead to people dying.

I've already pointed it out. If you want to see the evidence go back to my previous post. I don't feel like repeating myself at this time. The evidence was right there.

"Your eminence, my scrying has suggested nothing in the area. Dragon Bridge is under imperial control. This is likely superstitious nonsense." - Sybille

The Court Wizard didn't detect anything (Most likely due to the powerful nature of the Necromancer Coven) You say he has evidence, but nothing major. Certainly not something to divert limited guards to go on a possible wild goose chase. He already says with the war he had to prioritize, he has reports of lights and apparently travelers disappearing. Which could indicate bandits or wild animals.

Does Tamriel look like Australia to you? What gives you the right to lecture me about what is proper law?

Have I ever said Tamriel was Australia...? Where are you even getting that from. Tamriel is Tamriel and there isn't waivers to sign etc.

It is a medieval fantasy setting, law and punishment isn't fair.

While Torygg did acted like a true Nord when he accepted Ulfrics terms, that doesn't give him the excuse to break Imperial law by accepting it. No matter what their hearts tells them they must go by what the law dictates for as long as their province are under Imperial jurisdiction.

We'll make a bureaucratic Imperial out of you yet.

They want everything Handed to them. Think about it, They went from Great Houses and monumental Fame to pl*** and Poverty. I'd want my mansions back too. Unfortunately they'll have to live with it.

Where is your source for that? Since they make no mention to wanting anything handed to them.

Malthyr: "You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."
Brunwulf: "I'll speak to Ulfric soon, but I make no promises that I can change his mind."
Malthyr: "That's all I ask. With your help, we have a chance to make a better life for ourselves here. For that, I thank you."

They just want their Jarl to listen to their concerns, they're citizens of Windhelm too. They've also been 'living with it' for at least 185 years... So you really have nothing when saying they can't handle being in poverty.

They're just trying to make their living, and home. They've lived in Windhelm long enough to at least be treated as members of the city, they all work and none are begging.

The Dunmers are complaining that they live in small houses and live in poverty, and if the Dunmers don't like Skyrim they can free to leave the state and go else where. Perhaps Cyrodill can welcome them, and put up with their attitudes.

No they're not. When the Empire takes over:

"Well, not yet. The Empire hasn't been in charge for that long, and real change takes time. Still, having a just and honorable man like Brunwulf in charge can only be an improvement. Unlike Ulfric, Brunwulf has shown a great willingness to work with the other races and make us feel more at home here. For the first time in a long while, I truly believe that there are brighter days ahead."

Show me where they're asking for big houses and money? They're actually just happy that Brunwulf Free-Winter is meeting with them, listening to their complaints and discussing improvements to make repairs when they can.

Ulfric's steward could have done that and there would be no issue. All they want is to be treated fairly, majority of them work hard and businesses pay taxes. Ulfric was making money and resources of food for his rebellion because of the Dunmer, so they do more for the city than some Nords.

They sell goods, farm and one (through not so honest means) made a Nord shipping business able to compete with the East Empire Company. So I don't see where you Stormcloak supporters can say they're just a burden on the city.

Dunmer are good hard workers, they just ask to be treated like everyone else. Look at the history of Raven Rock, with the right encouragement they can achieve things.

They shouldn't have to be treated like second class citizens. They've given 185 or more years into Windhelm, and Ulfric's own father and his father before him going back a bit, treated them fairly.

Ambarys: "I'm going back to Morrowind first chance I get."
My point is theyre not willing to wait
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
And how can they earn respect when ALL the jobs are taken and they can't find any outside of their rundown ghetto?

"All the jobs" aren't taken. Its a matter of Pride. If they wanted to earn the respect of the Nords they could work for the Cruel-Seas or the Shatter-Shields, That'd certainly give them a bit more leverage, but no, they refuse. Because they're too stubborn and too proud to understand that they're the foreigners for once. If you went to Morrowind you wouldn't be able to go five seconds without being called a "N'wah" or "Outlander" Even if you were a Dunmer from a different country you'd still be considered one. It's Hard to believe people take pity for Slave Owners and Bigots when they'd do the same to you if you were in their country. Ever heard of the "Foreigners Canton" in Vivec. Yeah, No one gave a f*** then when there were Argonians, Nords, Khajiit and Orcs in segregation but when the Dunmer get a taste of their own medicine its all pitchforks and torches and down with Ulfric. Real fair examination guys.
And do you know what the Dunmer know to do? Do you know if the Clans mentioned are actually hiring/taking on Dunmer? No? then the Dunmer cannot get jobs from them.

There is a Dunmer working for the Shatter Shields and shes scolded by The Other Dunmer for doing so:

Ambarys: "Don't you ever find it demeaning, working for that Nord family?"
Suvaris: "Look, Ambarys, I just came here for a drink. I don't need any trouble."
Ambarys: "Fine, then. I guess some Dunmer are content to be their pets."
Suvaris: "Here's what's going to happen. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that, and you're going to leave me alone. Deal?" or maybe something like this:

Ambarys: "What's new with the Shatter Shields Suvaris? Have they given you one of those helmets with the horns on them yet?"
Suvaris: "What do you want from me? I work for them ok? We're not friends. They pay me, and I get the job done. That's it."
Ambarys: "Touchy. Maybe some Dunmer lives in you yet."
Suvaris: "Either pour another drink or keep moving, Ambarys."
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
You can attack the two Stormcloaks without any problems from Ralof. Hadvar makes those comments when the two Legion torturers are dead, either by your hand or the Stormcloaks.


I don't know. Those two Stormcloaks didn't do anything that prompts me to want to kill them. In fact it doesn't make any sense to kill them considering the fact that you're at a weak level, and need all the help that you can get to escape from the keep.

Are they going to take over an entire province from a single embassy with Justiciars? The Thalmor don't number that high in Skyrim, they want to take over Tamriel. They need to defeat the Empire's armies on their border before they can even think about taking over Skyrim.


Apparently they're working hard to achieve this goal.

I brought up the Companions because they're not fighting in the Civil War because it isn't their fight. So why should the Dunmer pick up a blade in Ulfric's name?

Skyrim is in shambles right now. The Thalmor are here because the Empire allowed them to be here. Talos worshipers are being slaughtered and being harshly imprisoned that carries out abuse. Ulfric is desperately trying to drive out any imperial influence from Skyrim and making the country independent. priorities are being set. The highest priorities get far more attention then the lowest priorities. You expect Ulfric to give full attention to a few unhappy Dunmers living in his city? Do you expect him to give them resources therefor shorten up the Armys supplies because of few Dunmers who refuse to contribute?

The Dunmer in Windhelm work and provide a service for Windhelm, they're not begging or depending on the local government to feed and clothe them.

At least that's a plus.

Really? Shame the Argonians can't agree to that. Windhelm is a harsh city and it is very cold. Run down buildings can lead to people dying.

SR-place-Argonian_Assemblage.jpg

SR-interior-Argonian_Assemblage.jpg


Yeah the Argonians truly have it rough down there. Keep telling me more about how rough they have it while the beggars (One of them is a former Stormcloak soldier) are forced to stay outside, and beg for coin. I don't know how they can die living in the Argonian Assemblage. They have heat and proper equipment to cook their food, and have beds to sleep on.

"Your eminence, my scrying has suggested nothing in the area. Dragon Bridge is under imperial control. This is likely superstitious nonsense." - Sybille
The Court Wizard didn't detect anything (Most likely due to the powerful nature of the Necromancer Coven) You say he has evidence, but nothing major. Certainly not something to divert limited guards to go on a possible wild goose chase. He already says with the war he had to prioritize, he has reports of lights and apparently travelers disappearing. Which could indicate bandits or wild animals.

Missing travelers and odd lights... mmmm.. that's enough evidence that is needed to start up an investigation, especially since you're dealing with something supernatural in the making.

As for Sybille.

Shes by far more worried about her experiments rather than what truly goes on in Solitude.An investigation in the cave takes resources, and she rather have that go to her experiments and studies.

Sorry but her statement is irrelvent considering the fact that she is a vampire, and most likley are part of the necromancers plan to bring back queen Potema.


We'll make a bureaucratic Imperial out of you yet.

That is one thing that you're going to fail my Imperial friend :)



No they're not. When the Empire takes over:

"Well, not yet. The Empire hasn't been in charge for that long, and real change takes time. Still, having a just and honorable man like Brunwulf in charge can only be an improvement. Unlike Ulfric, Brunwulf has shown a great willingness to work with the other races and make us feel more at home here. For the first time in a long while, I truly believe that there are brighter days ahead."

Show me where they're asking for big houses and money? They're actually just happy that Brunwulf Free-Winter is meeting with them, listening to their complaints and discussing improvements to make repairs when they can.

Ulfric's steward could have done that and there would be no issue. All they want is to be treated fairly, majority of them work hard and businesses pay taxes. Ulfric was making money and resources of food for his rebellion because of the Dunmer, so they do more for the city than some Nords.

They sell goods, farm and one (through not so honest means) made a Nord shipping business able to compete with the East Empire Company. So I don't see where you Stormcloak supporters can say they're just a burden on the city.

Dunmer are good hard workers, they just ask to be treated like everyone else. Look at the history of Raven Rock, with the right encouragement they can achieve things.

They shouldn't have to be treated like second class citizens. They've given 185 or more years into Windhelm, and Ulfric's own father and his father before him going back a bit, treated them fairly.

They're also guest of Skyrims lands. If you want to be treated equally you need to make yourself known, and to contribute and nobody is treating like second class citizens.
 

Mikulas Black-Blade

The Cave Bear
"All the jobs" aren't taken. Its a matter of Pride. If they wanted to earn the respect of the Nords they could work for the Cruel-Seas or the Shatter-Shields, That'd certainly give them a bit more leverage, but no, they refuse.

There is Dunmer working for Cruel-Seas and Shatter-Shields... So that kind of backfired on you?

I know... but The others don't and they certainly could. But why don't they ALL MIGHTY DRUNKEN MAGE? To me Those four Dunmer seem to be trying to integrate while the rest hold them back. So no it didn't backfire. It actually proved my point. Thank you.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
"All the jobs" aren't taken. Its a matter of Pride. If they wanted to earn the respect of the Nords they could work for the Cruel-Seas or the Shatter-Shields, That'd certainly give them a bit more leverage, but no, they refuse.

There is Dunmer working for Cruel-Seas and Shatter-Shields... So that kind of backfired on you?

I know... but The others don't and they certainly could. But why don't they ALL MIGHTY DRUNKEN MAGE? To me Those four Dunmer seem to be trying to integrate while the rest hold them back. So no it didn't backfire. It actually proved my point. Thank you.

I'm really not too sure Hard Work alone is going to fix things for the Dunmer or anyone else. After all, laboring for almost nothing for the Shatter-Shields has done the Argonians no favors - whom, as we may recall, were actually relegated to living outside the city walls. o_O On Ulfric's watch, no less.

Torbjorn said:
Those boots aren't worth the septims I do pay them. I'm not giving them coin I could give to good, Nord workers.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
There is Dunmer working for Cruel-Seas and Shatter-Shields... So that kind of backfired on you?

I know... but The others don't and they certainly could. But why don't they ALL MIGHTY DRUNKEN MAGE? To me Those four Dunmer seem to be trying to integrate while the rest hold them back. So no it didn't backfire. It actually proved my point. Thank you.

I'm really not too sure Hard Work alone is going to fix things for the Dunmer or anyone else. After all, laboring for almost nothing for the Shatter-Shields has done the Argonians no favors - whom, as we may recall, were actually relegated to living outside the city walls. o_O On Ulfric's watch, no less.

Torbjorn said:
Those boots aren't worth the septims I do pay them. I'm not giving them coin I could give to good, Nord workers.


2ngewle.jpg


Seems like the hard work is helping this Dunmer out, and don't forget that the Guards are recommending people to go the pawn shop to sell their unnecessary stuffs. That's soliciting business for the Dunmers.

Windhelm isn't all that bad to the Dunmers after all.
 

Harc

Big Hog
Beware, Stormcloak, for we'll find you and punish you for treason.

My Imperial signature is better than yours. :p

I made this signature for Harc.
KnIPced.png

He was one of the pickiest people to make a sig for. No problem, of course. Nothing wrong with someone who knows what he wants. But only a week or two later, I saw this:
1Y4NVL9.jpg

(-_-) speaking about wasting time... But alas, if he prefers that one: sure ;). That's up to him...
And yours is by far a more beautiful creation indeed! Which is why I use it now instead of my turd I created
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
I know... but The others don't and they certainly could. But why don't they ALL MIGHTY DRUNKEN MAGE? To me Those four Dunmer seem to be trying to integrate while the rest hold them back. So no it didn't backfire. It actually proved my point. Thank you.

I'm really not too sure Hard Work alone is going to fix things for the Dunmer or anyone else. After all, laboring for almost nothing for the Shatter-Shields has done the Argonians no favors - whom, as we may recall, were actually relegated to living outside the city walls. o_O On Ulfric's watch, no less.

Torbjorn said:
Those boots aren't worth the septims I do pay them. I'm not giving them coin I could give to good, Nord workers.


2ngewle.jpg


Seems like the hard work is helping this Dunmer out, and don't forget that the Guards are recommending people to go the pawn shop to sell their unnecessary stuffs. That's soliciting business for the Dunmers.

Windhelm isn't all that bad to the Dunmers after all.

In terms of endearing them to insular and otherwise unfriendly Nords, I don't think it's helping. He may be making more money than before, but he's not enjoying the same freedom of habitation as non-Dunmers and non-Argonians.

Just because Ulfric isn't sending midnight posses to systematically destroy the Dunmer residents does not negate the fact that they are being discriminated against based on their race.
 

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