Second Thoughts...

Every Elder Scrolls game I've played a assassin/rogue/sneak character. In Skyrim, no matter how much I've played, it seems only warriors benefit from "combat" situations. Maybe it's just me but Skyrim has really killed the beauty of Elder Scrolls through the obligation of being the Dragonborn.

*Looking for help utilizing assassin in Skyrm, since it's obviously different from morrowind/oblivion.

Let me tell you in a way about how every ES game involves a Dragonborn.
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Arena - Rescue the "Dragonborn Emperor" Uriel Septim VII from Jagar Tharn
Daggerfall - Go to High Rock on Behalf of the "Dragonborn Emperor" Uriel Septim VII
Morrowind - You are sent from the Imperial City prisons to Vvardenfell by the "Dragonborn Emperor" Uriel Septim VII
Oblivon - The "Dragonborn Emperor" is assassinated at the Start and your Job is to find the new "Dragonborn"
Skyrim - You are the damn "Dragonborn"

See the reason is because in Skyrim unlike all the other games you are no longer a servant of a Dragonborn or being sent someplace by them, In Skyrim you are the "Dragonborn" The one that fate decreed would battle the World eater at the end of time, the world literally revolves around you it does not seem to in the other game's

I've played every basic build in Skyrim—warriors, mages, thieves, assassins, and even pacifists. I keep going back to rogue types, because that's the play style I most enjoy, and I've never had an issue. In fact, though it is certainly more of a challenge in the early stages of the game, in the later stages I find it easier to be a rogue than a warrior. Armed only with my bow, I can clear out entire dungeons, including the Draugr Death Overlord or Dragon Priest bosses, without ever being spotted or hit. Even with a really jacked warrior, you're still going to have to face high-level enemies with hard-hitting weapons in melee combat, and you don't get any special damage bonuses, like rogues do with sneak attacks.

What exactly is it that you're having trouble with, and need help with?

By the way, there is no obligation to be the Dragonborn. You can simply not do the Dragon Rising quest. You'll never unlock the first Shout, and you'll never become the Dragonborn. I think there might be an issue with the civil war questlines, when you have to bring Ulfric's or Tullius's message to Balgruuf, but even then, you can just complete Dragon Rising, and forget all about the main quest. Sure, you'll be able to Shout now, but you don't have to.

imaginepageant said:

I've played every basic build in Skyrim—warriors, mages, thieves, assassins, and even pacifists. I keep going back to rogue types, because that's the play style I most enjoy, and I've never had an issue. In fact, though it is certainly more of a challenge in the early stages of the game, in the later stages I find it easier to be a rogue than a warrior. Armed only with my bow, I can clear out entire dungeons, including the Draugr Death Overlord or Dragon Priest bosses, without ever being spotted or hit. Even with a really jacked warrior, you're still going to have to face high-level enemies with hard-hitting weapons in melee combat, and you don't get any special damage bonuses, like rogues do with sneak attacks.

What exactly is it that you're having trouble with, and need help with?

By the way, there is no obligation to be the Dragonborn. You can simply not do the Dragon Rising quest. You'll never unlock the first Shout, and you'll never become the Dragonborn. I think there might be an issue with the civil war questlines, when you have to bring Ulfric's or Tullius's message to Balgruuf, but even then, you can just complete Dragon Rising, and forget all about the main quest. Sure, you'll be able to Shout now, but you don't have to.

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actually there are several issues

1- You must be the dragonborn to finish the civil war as you have to take care of Balgruff's dragon problem which will result in your absorbing a dragon soul

2- After you beat Durneviir in the soul cairn he will call you "qaunarrin or something" and he says he has some urge to call you a fellow dovah for some reason and he does not know why and that's if you have not become the Dragonborn yet as in he can sense your Draconic Soul

3- Your character can still understand the Dragon word walls someone who is not dragonborn or a dragon for that matter would NOT absorb their meaning

To actually answer your question:
Assassins are at a disadvantage, sneak attacking a dragon is more than hard with daggers, and you only get one or two shots with a bow before they find you in many cases. Dragons aren't the only enemies that force us into almost straight up fights either. Between relying on sneak attacks, using low damage weapons or ranged weapons and being clad in light armor, we really get beat down alot.

It is possible to fight these monsters though. In general my advice would be to ignore the main quest for awhile, because dragons are not going to be merciful. Head to Windhelm and follow rumors of a strange child. You want to join the Dark Brotherhood and do quests that are geared towards that playstyle and give you some nice bonuses. You'll want help from this questline and the thieve's guild in Riften. Both net you some great weapons and armor as well as some cool powers that will help immensly.

Obviously you want to utilize sneak, one-handed, archery and light armor. While you don't NEED alchemy, you definitely should consider it for both healing and poisons to even the odds. Most magic isn't a great help because it either attracts attention or when you need it, you need to act quickly and kill your foe before they kill you, not be casting spells. That said, illusion magic can be fantastic, especially invisibility, and synergizes well with the assassin style play. Enchanting is always useful and smithing will keep your armor strong and your blades sharp.

Eventually it becomes a test of killing your enemies before they kill you if you're forced into a fight. Dragons are a whole 'nother challenge though. Against a dragon, you want to just keep doing damage while avoiding most of it yourself, either putting arrows into it while maintaing safe distance or cutting it down with daggers from the side. Your first few dragons WILL be extremely difficult, but you can do it, especially with help from guards or followers. Later when you gain access to shouts, THIS is where you use them heavily. One last little bit of advice would be to grab the level 100 perk in the sneak tree: "Shadow Warrior" Cocking your arrow and then dropping into a crouch right before letting it fly will grant you a sneak attack even if they can see you. If you master the art of crouching and quickly rolling around your enemies, you can set up devastating sneak power attacks with your blades even though they know you're there.

The thing to remember about an assassin: They fight smart, not fair. Use any advantage you have, and avoid a straight up toe-to-toe fight any time it's possible(always).

tx12001 said:

actually there are several issues

1- You must be the dragonborn to finish the civil war as you have to take care of Balgruff's dragon problem which will result in your absorbing a dragon soul

2- After you beat Durneviir in the soul cairn he will call you "qaunarrin or something" and he says he has some urge to call you a fellow dovah for some reason and he does not know why and that's if you have not become the Dragonborn yet as in he can sense your Draconic Soul

3- Your character can still understand the Dragon word walls someone who is not dragonborn or a dragon for that matter would NOT absorb their meaning

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Yes, and as I said, you can complete Dragon Rising, and then completely forget about the main quest. So you have a dragon soul, and you have a Shout - does that mean you have to use it? Of course not. You start the game automatically with the Flames spell, but that doesn't mean you can't play a character who uses no magic whatsoever. Just don't use Flames. And if you don't want your character to be Dragonborn, don't use Shouts.

I suppose if you're really hardcore into roleplaying, completing Dragon Rising breaks immersion a bit, but otherwise, it doesn't affect your game at all. I mean, if you're that concerned, just pretend you're a regular guy who helps the guards defeat a dragon, and close your eyes when you start to absorb the soul. Put your TV or computer on mute when you return to Balgruuf, and pretend he's just thanking you for being so nice and defending his hold. Bam! Roleplaying saved!

Really, the game is what you make it. You are not forced to play as the Dragonborn. You are not forced to play the main storyline past the first quest (and you don't even have to do that if you're not doing the civil war).

imaginepageant said:

tx12001 said:

actually there are several issues

1- You must be the dragonborn to finish the civil war as you have to take care of Balgruff's dragon problem which will result in your absorbing a dragon soul

2- After you beat Durneviir in the soul cairn he will call you "qaunarrin or something" and he says he has some urge to call you a fellow dovah for some reason and he does not know why and that's if you have not become the Dragonborn yet as in he can sense your Draconic Soul

3- Your character can still understand the Dragon word walls someone who is not dragonborn or a dragon for that matter would NOT absorb their meaning

Click to expand...

Yes, and as I said, you can complete Dragon Rising, and then completely forget about the main quest. So you have a dragon soul, and you have a Shout - does that mean you have to use it? Of course not. You start the game automatically with the Flames spell, but that doesn't mean you can't play a character who uses no magic whatsoever. Just don't use Flames. And if you don't want your character to be Dragonborn, don't use Shouts.

I suppose if you're really hardcore into roleplaying, completing Dragon Rising breaks immersion a bit, but otherwise, it doesn't affect your game at all. I mean, if you're that concerned, just pretend you're a regular guy who helps the guards defeat a dragon, and close your eyes when you start to absorb the soul. Put your TV or computer on mute when you return to Balgruuf, and pretend he's just thanking you for being so nice and defending his hold. Bam! Roleplaying saved!

Really, the game is what you make it. You are not forced to play as the Dragonborn. You are not forced to play the main storyline past the first quest (and you don't even have to do that if you're not doing the civil war).

Click to expand...

here is the thing the very second you absorb a dragon soul you are instantly the dragonborn from their on and the guards will even have dialogue pertaining to that and you can't get any further threw the civil war without first absorbing that dragon soul because even if you do get away from it and speak to balgruff he will tell you to go back and make sure you killed the dragon

tx12001 said:

here is the thing the very second you absorb a dragon soul you are instantly the dragonborn from their on and the guards will even have dialogue pertaining to that and you can't get any further threw the civil war without first absorbing that dragon soul because even if you do get away from it and speak to balgruff he will tell you to go back and make sure you killed the dragon

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Actually, the only thing guards say in regards to the Dragonborn is, "Maybe I'm the Dragonborn, and I just don't know it yet," and, "What does the Dragonborn do after he's summoned to High Hrothgar?" They don't call you Dragonborn, aside from the guards at the watchtower after killing Mirmulnir - and you can even avoid that if you leave the scene immediately.

Are you technically the Dragonborn? Yes. So what? I'll say it one more time: you don't have to play as the Dragonborn. If you absolutely can't stand the idea that you have a Shout in your magic menu and you can't go on playing because it's a constant taunting reminder that you are the Dragonborn, well, you might be taking the game a little too seriously.

imaginepageant said:

tx12001 said:

here is the thing the very second you absorb a dragon soul you are instantly the dragonborn from their on and the guards will even have dialogue pertaining to that and you can't get any further threw the civil war without first absorbing that dragon soul because even if you do get away from it and speak to balgruff he will tell you to go back and make sure you killed the dragon

Click to expand...

Actually, the only thing guards say in regards to the Dragonborn is, "Maybe I'm the Dragonborn, and I just don't know it yet," and, "What does the Dragonborn do after he's summoned to High Hrothgar?" They don't call you Dragonborn, aside from the guards at the watchtower after killing Mirmulnir - and you can even avoid that if you leave the scene immediately.

Are you technically the Dragonborn? Yes. So what? I'll say it one more time: you don't have to play as the Dragonborn. If you absolutely can't stand the idea that you have a Shout in your magic menu and you can't go on playing because it's a constant taunting reminder that you are the Dragonborn, well, you might be taking the game a little too seriously.

Click to expand...

they also say "you couldn't possibly be the dragonborn of Legend could you" and "Their is talk amongst the guards that you are Dragonborn but such a thing surly it isn't possible

Warriors do have the advantage in combat over a assasin/sneak/rogue character. One rule though, , , , ''dont get caught'' .. .. ..

RedNeK said:

Assassins are at a disadvantage, sneak attacking a dragon is more than hard with daggers, and you only get one or two shots with a bow before they find you in many cases.

Click to expand...

RedNeK said:

Your first few dragons WILL be extremely difficult, but you can do it, especially with help from guards or followers.

Click to expand...

If you use a bow, you actually have an advantage over warriors against dragons at early levels. A warrior is useless until the dragon decides to land, and even then, you'll have to walk through their fire or frost to get close enough to hit them, and even then you're in danger of getting chomped. An assassin armed with a bow can stay safely out of reach, and land shots while the dragon is in the air. You'll do less damage per hit than a warrior, but you'll be doing damage and avoiding damage when a warrior can't.

If you're focusing more on one-handed weapons and are using Shouts, Elemental Fury is fantastic for dual daggers, and will kill almost anything quickly, even dragons. Get all three words of the Shout, a good set of (unenchanted) daggers, and you'll be as deadly in melee combat as any warrior.

RedNeK said:

The thing to remember about an assassin: They fight smart, not fair.

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This. A million times this.

If you're using Shouts, Disarm, Dismay, Kyne's Peace, Marked for Death, and Aura Whisper are all very helpful. If you're using magic, fury and calm spells will be your bread and butter against groups, or summons can help distract enemies while you get back into hiding. If you're using alchemy, aside from damage poisons, make a lot of fury and paralyze poisons, and invisibility potions. Lure enemies into traps or shoot oil lamps down on top of them to get some extra damage in.

Be creative in killing your enemies! That's the beauty of the rogue - there are so many ways to get the upper hand, and so many ways to fight, instead of just hack-and-slashing.

Am I the only one that doesn't bother even going to Bleak Falls Barrow if I don't want to use the MQ? Then no dragons, no soul absorption, and no dialogue pertaining to dragonborn. The only thing I have to deal with are the word walls, which I RP as a foreign language to my character.

W'rkncacnter said:

Am I the only one that doesn't bother even going to Bleak Falls Barrow if I don't want to use the MQ? Then no dragons, no soul absorption, and no dialogue pertaining to dragonborn. The only thing I have to deal with are the word walls, which I RP as a foreign language to my character.

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I've been known to do this too when I'm playing theif/assassin characters or even mages. I just ignore the main quest AND the civil war. Most of the time I don't care about them anyhow. I've actually gone through the entire game (including getting the Dragon Scroll for Dawnguard) without ever having anything to do with either Dragons or the war (although people mention it incessantly!). Sure I didn't get all the houses (Hjerkin) and all the words wall stuff I absorbed was useless (although I got to the point where I simply ignored the walls chanting and just took the chest stuff). Sure there were some places that were inaccesible, but it's only 1 or 2 places so it didn't matter anyhow. It can be great fun and, to me, honestly, the main quest and the civil war are intensily boring and I could, frankly, care less. I'm an adventurer, not a bloody soldier or dragon hunter. I always wondered why Alvor never pressed the issue of my informing the Jarl about Helgen & the Dragon despite visiting him over and over over the months and there still being no soldiers, but, hey, why complain.

imaginepageant said:

I've played every basic build in Skyrim—warriors, mages, thieves, assassins, and even pacifists. I keep going back to rogue types, because that's the play style I most enjoy, and I've never had an issue. In fact, though it is certainly more of a challenge in the early stages of the game, in the later stages I find it easier to be a rogue than a warrior. Armed only with my bow, I can clear out entire dungeons, including the Draugr Death Overlord or Dragon Priest bosses, without ever being spotted or hit. Even with a really jacked warrior, you're still going to have to face high-level enemies with hard-hitting weapons in melee combat, and you don't get any special damage bonuses, like rogues do with sneak attacks.

What exactly is it that you're having trouble with, and need help with?

By the way, there is no obligation to be the Dragonborn. You can simply not do the Dragon Rising quest. You'll never unlock the first Shout, and you'll never become the Dragonborn. I think there might be an issue with the civil war questlines, when you have to bring Ulfric's or Tullius's message to Balgruuf, but even then, you can just complete Dragon Rising, and forget all about the main quest. Sure, you'll be able to Shout now, but you don't have to.

Click to expand...

I think my biggest issue is when I play assassin type characters I tend to focus more on actual fighting (dual wield especially) and less on sneak checks. Dragons are the bane of my existence when it comes to sneak characters, unless I'm using a semi powerful bow. Just recently delved into the illusion and alteration trees with my latest assassin and I have to say it was very refreshing. Unfortunately illusion becomes practically useless past level 40, which is like 10 perk points wasted, and alteration I have no problems with simply due to magic resistance and atronach.

As for being dragonborn my issue with that is how in previous ES games you kind of just existed and did whatever you wanted to. Skyrim almost takes away that freedom by saying "hey, your dragonborn. Deal with it." I feel restricted even though it is open world.

*Side note*
Funny how any character you make, be it orc, nord, dunmer, even altmer, you become dragonborn. Just doesn't sit well with me roleplaying wise. I wish for a morrowind remastered in the near future.

Dynnge said:

imaginepageant said:

I've played every basic build in Skyrim—warriors, mages, thieves, assassins, and even pacifists. I keep going back to rogue types, because that's the play style I most enjoy, and I've never had an issue. In fact, though it is certainly more of a challenge in the early stages of the game, in the later stages I find it easier to be a rogue than a warrior. Armed only with my bow, I can clear out entire dungeons, including the Draugr Death Overlord or Dragon Priest bosses, without ever being spotted or hit. Even with a really jacked warrior, you're still going to have to face high-level enemies with hard-hitting weapons in melee combat, and you don't get any special damage bonuses, like rogues do with sneak attacks.

What exactly is it that you're having trouble with, and need help with?

By the way, there is no obligation to be the Dragonborn. You can simply not do the Dragon Rising quest. You'll never unlock the first Shout, and you'll never become the Dragonborn. I think there might be an issue with the civil war questlines, when you have to bring Ulfric's or Tullius's message to Balgruuf, but even then, you can just complete Dragon Rising, and forget all about the main quest. Sure, you'll be able to Shout now, but you don't have to.

Click to expand...

I think my biggest issue is when I play assassin type characters I tend to focus more on actual fighting (dual wield especially) and less on sneak checks. Dragons are the bane of my existence when it comes to sneak characters, unless I'm using a semi powerful bow. Just recently delved into the illusion and alteration trees with my latest assassin and I have to say it was very refreshing. Unfortunately illusion becomes practically useless past level 40, which is like 10 perk points wasted, and alteration I have no problems with simply due to magic resistance and atronach.

As for being dragonborn my issue with that is how in previous ES games you kind of just existed and did whatever you wanted to. Skyrim almost takes away that freedom by saying "hey, your dragonborn. Deal with it." I feel restricted even though it is open world.

*Side note*
Funny how any character you make, be it orc, nord, dunmer, even altmer, you become dragonborn. Just doesn't sit well with me roleplaying wise. I wish for a morrowind remastered in the near future.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with your side note. I asked that question a few months back stating that I would have assumed that a dragonborn would have been Nord, Breton or Imperial rather than mer or beast race, but it was pointed out to me that, since it is a blessing from the big boss god (sorry can't remember the name right now), it could be anyone. I guess it's not genetic then.

Daelon DuLac said:

Dynnge said:

imaginepageant said:

I've played every basic build in Skyrim—warriors, mages, thieves, assassins, and even pacifists. I keep going back to rogue types, because that's the play style I most enjoy, and I've never had an issue. In fact, though it is certainly more of a challenge in the early stages of the game, in the later stages I find it easier to be a rogue than a warrior. Armed only with my bow, I can clear out entire dungeons, including the Draugr Death Overlord or Dragon Priest bosses, without ever being spotted or hit. Even with a really jacked warrior, you're still going to have to face high-level enemies with hard-hitting weapons in melee combat, and you don't get any special damage bonuses, like rogues do with sneak attacks.

What exactly is it that you're having trouble with, and need help with?

By the way, there is no obligation to be the Dragonborn. You can simply not do the Dragon Rising quest. You'll never unlock the first Shout, and you'll never become the Dragonborn. I think there might be an issue with the civil war questlines, when you have to bring Ulfric's or Tullius's message to Balgruuf, but even then, you can just complete Dragon Rising, and forget all about the main quest. Sure, you'll be able to Shout now, but you don't have to.

Click to expand...

I think my biggest issue is when I play assassin type characters I tend to focus more on actual fighting (dual wield especially) and less on sneak checks. Dragons are the bane of my existence when it comes to sneak characters, unless I'm using a semi powerful bow. Just recently delved into the illusion and alteration trees with my latest assassin and I have to say it was very refreshing. Unfortunately illusion becomes practically useless past level 40, which is like 10 perk points wasted, and alteration I have no problems with simply due to magic resistance and atronach.

As for being dragonborn my issue with that is how in previous ES games you kind of just existed and did whatever you wanted to. Skyrim almost takes away that freedom by saying "hey, your dragonborn. Deal with it." I feel restricted even though it is open world.

*Side note*
Funny how any character you make, be it orc, nord, dunmer, even altmer, you become dragonborn. Just doesn't sit well with me roleplaying wise. I wish for a morrowind remastered in the near future.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with your side note. I asked that question a few months back stating that I would have assumed that a dragonborn would have been Nord, Breton or Imperial rather than mer or beast race, but it was pointed out to me that, since it is a blessing from the big boss god (sorry can't remember the name right now), it could be anyone. I guess it's not genetic then.

Click to expand...

AKATOSH! Just got it.

Dynnge said:

I think my biggest issue is when I play assassin type characters I tend to focus more on actual fighting (dual wield especially) and less on sneak checks. Dragons are the bane of my existence when it comes to sneak characters, unless I'm using a semi powerful bow.

Click to expand...

You definitely need to take advantage of sneak attacks. Some tips:

- Before you shoot, scope out a good place to hide (behind a rock, in the shadows, etc). Then, move a little ways away from it, shoot, and sneak back to your hiding spot. Enemies will look for you in the place you shot from, so try not to hang around there for long, especially if it's somewhere your enemy can get to (e.g. down the hall in a barrow, as opposed to way up on a cliff above an Imperial camp).

- Stay as far away from an enemy as you can when shooting them, because that will give you more time to move and hide without them seeing you.

- Get boots with the Muffle enchantment as soon as you can (guaranteed from the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, very rare to find randomly in shops). Until then, and while you're building up your sneak skill, sneak veeeeeery slooooooowly when near enemies, as you'll make less noise. You can also take off all of your armor and sneak around naked to make less noise—not a great idea when you might suddenly be attacked by, say, a sabrecat, but to sneak past a single draugr, or for some late-night thieving, this can really help!


I've got to head out, but I'll think of some more tips for you and be back with them later.

imaginepageant said:

Dynnge said:

I think my biggest issue is when I play assassin type characters I tend to focus more on actual fighting (dual wield especially) and less on sneak checks. Dragons are the bane of my existence when it comes to sneak characters, unless I'm using a semi powerful bow.

Click to expand...

You definitely need to take advantage of sneak attacks. Some tips:

- Before you shoot, scope out a good place to hide (behind a rock, in the shadows, etc). Then, move a little ways away from it, shoot, and sneak back to your hiding spot. Enemies will look for you in the place you shot from, so try not to hang around there for long, especially if it's somewhere your enemy can get to (e.g. down the hall in a barrow, as opposed to way up on a cliff above an Imperial camp).

- Stay as far away from an enemy as you can when shooting them, because that will give you more time to move and hide without them seeing you.

- Get boots with the Muffle enchantment as soon as you can (guaranteed from the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, very rare to find randomly in shops). Until then, and while you're building up your sneak skill, sneak veeeeeery slooooooowly when near enemies, as you'll make less noise. You can also take off all of your armor and sneak around naked to make less noise—not a great idea when you might suddenly be attacked by, say, a sabrecat, but to sneak past a single draugr, or for some late-night thieving, this can really help!


I've got to head out, but I'll think of some more tips for you and be back with them later.

Click to expand...

I'm well aware of how stealth works and the benefits of sneak attacks. I guess my biggest thing is, after playing for so long, sneak attacks are the only good thing going for assassins (illusion not included) and I find it hard to accept that. Assassins should be dominating the melee game.

Dynnge said:

I'm well aware of how stealth works and the benefits of sneak attacks. I guess my biggest thing is, after playing for so long, sneak attacks are the only good thing going for assassins (illusion not included) and I find it hard to accept that. Assassins should be dominating the melee game.

Click to expand...

Well, I'll just repeat this, then.

imaginepageant said:

If you're focusing more on one-handed weapons and are using Shouts, Elemental Fury is fantastic for dual daggers, and will kill almost anything quickly, even dragons. Get all three words of the Shout, a good set of (unenchanted) daggers, and you'll be as deadly in melee combat as any warrior.

Click to expand...

imaginepageant said:

Dynnge said:

I'm well aware of how stealth works and the benefits of sneak attacks. I guess my biggest thing is, after playing for so long, sneak attacks are the only good thing going for assassins (illusion not included) and I find it hard to accept that. Assassins should be dominating the melee game.

Click to expand...

Well, I'll just repeat this, then.

imaginepageant said:

If you're focusing more on one-handed weapons and are using Shouts, Elemental Fury is fantastic for dual daggers, and will kill almost anything quickly, even dragons. Get all three words of the Shout, a good set of (unenchanted) daggers, and you'll be as deadly in melee combat as any warrior.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What's the recharge on elemental fury? like 2 minutes? Unreliable. Only way I'm going back to sin is if Bethesda revamps the whole stealth system. Too many holes where holes shouldn't be.