Why do the Thalmor want an Imperial victory?

The last thing the Thalmor need is another independent nation of warriors. That already happened to Hammerfell, where the Redguards (another nationalistic warrior people like the Nords) kicked otu the Empire, then kicked the Thalmor out when they invaded. The Thalmor want to completely subjugate humanity, and the Stormcloaks would never, ever give up the fight. The amount of manpower required for the Thalmor to put down the Stormcloaks if they defeat the empire would be insane.

It's all well and good that the Redguards managed to kick out the Dominion. But, that could play into the hands of the Thalmor in the end. If the provinces remain under the rule of the Empire, the more difficult it would be for the Thalmor to take over. If the provinces split from the Empire, the easier it is to take over each province. Now, the Thalmor could allow Hammerfell to sit pretty for a awhile. Until the Dominion has taken over the rest of Tamriel. It's a classic divide and conquer tactic. The Dominion doesn't want the Empire to remain strong, because if the Empire remains strong, the more difficult it is to defeat the Empire.

Jersey Dagmar said:

It's all well and good that the Redguards managed to kick out the Dominion. But, that could play into the hands of the Thalmor in the end. If the provinces remain under the rule of the Empire, the more difficult it would be for the Thalmor to take over. If the provinces split from the Empire, the easier it is to take over each province. Now, the Thalmor could allow Hammerfell to sit pretty for a awhile. Until the Dominion has taken over the rest of Tamriel. It's a classic divide and conquer tactic. The Dominion doesn't want the Empire to remain strong, because if the Empire remains strong, the more difficult it is to defeat the Empire.

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The counter-argument to that, of course, is that an independent Skyrim might well ally with an independent Hammerfell against the Thalmor, and there is the potential that they may attack before the Thalmor are ready to resume hostilities.

bulbaquil said:

The counter-argument to that, of course, is that an independent Skyrim might well ally with an independent Hammerfell against the Thalmor, and there is the potential that they may attack before the Thalmor are ready to resume hostilities.

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And I can counter with that with I don't see Ulfric working alongside the Redguards, honestly I don't. And even IF they did, and the Thalmor managed to gain control of the rest of Tamriel, I don't see how two independent provinces can take on the rest of a Dominion controlled Tamriel. The Dominion will have all the resources of the other provinces at their disposal. Including those provinces soldiers.

And let's say the Dominion can't take a hold of the other provinces, and the other provinces join alongside Hammerfell and Skyrim. Well, that's basically what the Empire wants to happen. To have all the provinces unite and take out the Thalmor. But, the Empire can't do that when certain provinces can't see the bigger picture, which is the more divided the Empire is, the easier it is for the Thalmor to take over.

Yeah but Jersey you miss one piece of important information that I pointed out in my post. The Stormcloaks will team with anyone against a greater threat. This is shown during Seasons Unending. Thus yes Ulfric would team up with anyone against the Thalmor, simply because of the Talos issue and being *next*

Necromis said:

Yeah but Jersey you miss one piece of important information that I pointed out in my post. The Stormcloaks will team with anyone against a greater threat. This is shown during Seasons Unending. Thus yes Ulfric would team up with anyone against the Thalmor, simply because of the Talos issue and being *next*

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I didn't miss that. I said IF Skyrim and Hammerfell managed an alliance, I seriously doubt they would stand up a chance against the rest of Tamriel that is controlled by the Dominion. Yes, you're right, Ulfric would side with anyone for personal gain. But, whose to say Ulfric would continue to allow Hammerfell to be independent, IF they happened to win against the Dominion. There's just so many IFs. And I find it amusing that people underestimate the Dominion so much. Just because they lost against Hammerfell doesn't mean their forces should be cast so easily aside.

And are you so sure other races even care about the not being to worship Talos openly issue? That's a mighty big assumption. I'm sure the Khajiits, Argonians, and the Orcs don't care about that at all.

And for Ulfric to make a statement about marching onto Summerset Isles is just a joke. He has no knowledge of the terrain and he'd be giving the Dominion the advantage. It's seriously not a good tactic. But, what do you expect from a man who can't even do his job as Jarl?

The issue is that we really don't know how powerful or not-powerful the Aldmeri Dominion is. Maybe they are as big a threat as they're made out to be. Maybe Titus Mede signed the W-G Concordat because there really was no other alternative. Maybe he signed it because he was tired of the war and just wanted to declare peace. We don't really know.

We know that the Dominion of 30 years ago were powerful enough to nearly eradicate the Blades and take, but not hold onto, the Imperial City, but we also know that the Dominion of 20 years ago was either not strong enough or not motivated enough to hold onto whatever portion of Hammerfell that was ceded to them.

A crapload of Skyrim, especially as pertains to the civil war, can easily be viewed as opinions or propaganda, even if it's in a book. It seems to be largely a matter of who you, the player, choose to trust and distrust.

And ultimately, it boils down to what Bethesda wants to happen; all else is essentially fanfiction. They want a Thalmor victory no matter what happens to SKyrim, there'll be a Thalmor victory. They want a Thalmor defeat no matter what happens to Skyrim, the Thalmor will be defeated. They want Ulfric to win and ally with Hammerfell, then he'll ally with Hammerfell. They want Ulfric to win and not ally with Hammerfell, then he'll not ally with Hammerfell. They want the Dragonborn to go down to Summerset Isle and destroy the Thalmor single-handedly, that'll happen.

Jersey Dagmar said:

I didn't miss that. I said IF Skyrim and Hammerfell managed an alliance, I seriously doubt they would stand up a chance against the rest of Tamriel that is controlled by the Dominion. Yes, you're right, Ulfric would side with anyone for personal gain. But, whose to say Ulfric would continue to allow Hammerfell to be independent, IF they happened to win against the Dominion. There's just so many IFs. And I find it amusing that people underestimate the Dominion so much. Just because they lost against Hammerfell doesn't mean their forces should be cast so easily aside.

And are you so sure other races even care about the not being to worship Talos openly issue? That's a mighty big assumption. I'm sure the Khajiits, Argonians, and the Orcs don't care about that at all.

And for Ulfric to make a statement about marching onto Summerset Isles is just a joke. He has no knowledge of the terrain and he'd be giving the Dominion the advantage. It's seriously not a good tactic. But, what do you expect from a man who can't even do his job as Jarl?

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I am not discounting the Thalmor, I actually think they are quite powerful, though the Empire should not have been such a wuse and fought it out. I believe in the end they would have one and not had to sign such a one sided peace agreement. I think the Stormcloaks would side with the Empire, and even Hammerfall might. Use WWII as an example. Many smaller countries combining for their overall survival. Also I am in no way saying that others will give a hoot about Talos worshiping, I am saying the Nords will and will remember what the Thalmor wanted to do to them. It is just conjector on all our parts unless Bethesda writes it into the history or story of the next ES.

Necromis said:

I am not discounting the Thalmor, I actually think they are quite powerful, though the Empire should not have been such a wuse and fought it out. I believe in the end they would have one and not had to sign such a one sided peace agreement. I think the Stormcloaks would side with the Empire, and even Hammerfall might. Use WWII as an example. Many smaller countries combining for their overall survival. Also I am in no way saying that others will give a hoot about Talos worshiping, I am saying the Nords will and will remember what the Thalmor wanted to do to them. It is just conjector on all our parts unless Bethesda writes it into the history or story of the next ES.

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But the butthurt Nords that are whining about the Talos worship need to remember that sometimes with peace treaties, you have to make compromises. And usually the losing side gets the raw end of the deal. Now with the Civil War going on, the Empire is forced to use the resources it has been building up. Building up to take battle back to the Thalmor. The Empire AND the Thalmor wouldn't even be in Skyrim if Ulfric didn't throw his hissy fit.

True, but let me ask you this, would the muslims in the US stop practicing if the US signed a treatie outlawing it. Heck no. Any person who has a strong belief in their faith will not honor such a treatie, and those who belong to that faith would then rise up to fight against the persecution of their faith. So even if Ulfric is a douche those following him are not. The Empire would always have some presence in Skyrim even w/o the war.

Jersey Dagmar said:

But the butthurt Nords that are whining about the Talos worship need to remember that sometimes with peace treaties, you have to make compromises. And usually the losing side gets the raw end of the deal. Now with the Civil War going on, the Empire is forced to use the resources it has been building up. Building up to take battle back to the Thalmor. The Empire AND the Thalmor wouldn't even be in Skyrim if Ulfric didn't throw his hissy fit.

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Presumption: the Empire was, in fact, the losing side. Certainly Titus Mede thought so, but do we know that for sure? All things considered, the Imperial City isn't that far from the Aldmeri Dominion.

Vinz said:

• Empire is no one's puppet.
• Ulfric started this war. Talos worship is an excuse. I'm sure you know that people who wanted to, were merrily worshiping Talos before the Stormcloaks came in and created all this bloody hue and cry. Ulfric is milking this issue to fix his own ends.
• Empire had to sign the treaty because they thought it was the most logical thing to do at that time. Don't forget the Empire fought bravely but Dominion was a very strong opponent. This is war, stuff like this happens and obviously the treaties never favour the losing side. Look at our world's history for references.

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Either you're an atheist and do not believe in a god or you simply do not understand the mentality of a person who is very religious. Ulfric is a religious fantastic and religiously worships Talos. When the empire took his freedom away to the thalmor his respect for the empire liquidated almost immediately. Ulfric obviously has a lot of followers that shares his grievance towards the empire. Hear what some of these stormcloak soldiers say out in the wilderness, and you get a better understanding on why they join. Ulfric was a former legionnaire who actually fought for the empire during the great war so it's not like he hated the empire since the beginning.

Raijin, I agree with you to a point as I indicated about my thoughts on the religious aspect of it earlier. However, I disagree with your assesment of Ulfric. He is not in this for the worshipers of Talos, he is in this for himself. He wants to title of High King and wants out of his little hell hole of Windhelm. His motivations are selfish as you can tell by his attitude, actions, and words. Those who follow him, however are concerned about Talos worship.

Raijin said:

Either you're an atheist and do not believe in a god or you simply do not understand the mentality of a person who is very religious. Ulfric is a religious fantastic and religiously worships Talos. When the empire took his freedom away to the thalmor his respect for the empire liquidated almost immediately. Ulfric obviously has a lot of followers that shares his grievance towards the empire. Hear what some of these stormcloak soldiers say out in the wilderness, and you get a better understanding on why they join. Ulfric was a former legionnaire who actually fought for the empire during the great war so it's not like he hated the empire since the beginning.

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When it comes between religion and racism, I feel racism is a bit more of a concern. I refuse to support a rebellion and it's leader when they are so openly against anyone who isn't a Nord. And the Stormcloaks didn't just pop up the minute Talos rule was banned. Ulfric had been trying to get support for quite some time, and the recent banning was merely the leverage he needed. This shows, ultimately, he doesn't care about the supposed people he fights for. He's after the throne, he's in it for Ulfric and no one else.

As I said, he's using a moral issue to get the popular vote. Very common in politics. However, it does seem Skyrim is divided on the Stormcloak/Empire issue overall. And as Dagmar has said, that's by design. That's just how the game is made.

The racism argument would be more compelling if it weren't for the fact that Khajiit still aren't allowed in Imperial-controlled cities.

Also, it needs to be pointed out that regardless of your personal beliefs in real life, the gods DO exist in Tamriel. Their existence is not even debatable; if they did not exist, then you'd find the Daedric quests to be a whole lot shorter and a whole lot less fun. If Talos is, in fact, an Aedra, the inability of his devout to worship him - even temporarily! - could create instability in the cosmos. Hectk, it might have been such instability that brough Alduin out of banishment. (Well, maybe not, but it's an interesting idea for a fanfic.)

Necromis said:

Raijin, I agree with you to a point as I indicated about my thoughts on the religious aspect of it earlier. However, I disagree with your assesment of Ulfric. He is not in this for the worshipers of Talos, he is in this for himself. He wants to title of High King and wants out of his little hell hole of Windhelm. His motivations are selfish as you can tell by his attitude, actions, and words. Those who follow him, however are concerned about Talos worship.

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I'm sorry but I disagree with your post regarding to Ulfric reasoning. I've browse through Ulfrics sound-byes periodically and nowhere did I hear him mentioning anything derogatory regarding to Windhelm. Can you provide evidence claiming that he only wants to be the High King because he wants out of Windhelm? Because I sure as heck didn't approach any materiel like that before.
Also if he isn't in this for the worship of Talos then why during the season unending right after you are told to sit Ulfric immediately spills out his disapproval of Elenwen's presence “No. You insult us by bringing her to this negotiation? Your chief Talos hunter?"
Sorry I do not view Ulfric as being this selfish man who is out there for himself.

bulbaquil said:

The racism argument would be more compelling if it weren't for the fact that Khajiit still aren't allowed in Imperial-controlled cities.

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I actually feel the Khajiits don't want to be in the towns to begin with. Despite what they say, the majority of them are performing illegal activities and it's easier for them to get away with it while not in the cities. And the Dunmer ARE allowed in Windhelm. And yet seem to garner the most racism out of any of the races. Seriously, Skyrim is such a different game than Oblivion in terms of equality for each race. So the racism argument is very valid, so please try that again.

And Ulfric not sitting his ass down at Season Unending just shows even more he really is. Despite his feelings about Elenwen, he was there to set up a truce with the Empire, so the Dragonborn could do his/her job and save the world from Aludin. Despite what Ulfric thinks, there are bigger concerns going on in Skyrim than the Civil War. His behavior was extremely childish.

Jersey Dagmar said:

And Ulfric not sitting his ass down at Season Unending just shows even more he really is. Despite his feelings about Elenwen, he was there to set up a truce with the Empire, so the Dragonborn could do his/her job and save the world from Aludin. Despite what Ulfric thinks, there are bigger concerns going on in Skyrim than the Civil War. His behavior was extremely childish.

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And yet Tullius brings her to the negotiations to begin with in full awareness that her presence would be very poorly received by Ulfric and his delegation. Yes, she talks of being here to ensure nothing violates the White-Gold Concordat, but in reality anything short of a total Stormcloak surrender is a violation of the Concordat. Not to mention that Tullius also thinks that the civil war is a bigger deal than the dragons.

Raijin said:

I'm sorry but I disagree with your post regarding to Ulfric reasoning. I've browse through Ulfrics sound-byes periodically and nowhere did I hear him mentioning anything derogatory regarding to Windhelm. Can you provide evidence claiming that he only wants to be the High King because he wants out of Windhelm? Because I sure as heck didn't approach any materiel like that before.
Also if he isn't in this for the worship of Talos then why during the season unending right after you are told to sit Ulfric immediately spills out his disapproval of Elenwen's presence “No. You insult us by bringing her to this negotiation? Your chief Talos hunter?"
Sorry I do not view Ulfric as being this selfish man who is out there for himself.

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LOL you took that a bit too literal. I am saying his asperations, as noted in his actions and such is he wants to be the high king. I personally say part of the reason is to get out of Windhelm, as Solitude is so much nicer.

Jersey Dagmar said:

When it comes between religion and racism, I feel racism is a bit more of a concern. I refuse to support a rebellion and it's leader when they are so openly against anyone who isn't a Nord. And the Stormcloaks didn't just pop up the minute Talos rule was banned. Ulfric had been trying to get support for quite some time, and the recent banning was merely the leverage he needed. This shows, ultimately, he doesn't care about the supposed people he fights for. He's after the throne, he's in it for Ulfric and no one else.

As I said, he's using a moral issue to get the popular vote. Very common in politics. However, it does seem Skyrim is divided on the Stormcloak/Empire issue overall. And as Dagmar has said, that's by design. That's just how the game is made.

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So you support the legion and the ruthless General who was willing to kill someone (you) who wasn't even on the execution list? The female captain had absolutely no concern over it and just shrugged it off like if it didn't even matter. Oh and the horse thief? Cutting his head off because he stole a horse? That scene kind of reminds me of the Alice and wonderland scene where the toad stole the queens heart tarts.