Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I don't think the Nord from Markarth was openly worshiping Talos. He didn't have an amulet of Talos around his neck. He kept it inside of his own home yet the Talmor was pursuing him.

Yet they can't touch him, they can't enter his home. The head of the Thalmor Justiciars in all of Skyrim, has to ask the player for help.

Can you prove to me that this is a fact and not an opinion?

I seriously doubt that.

It is logical, gathered from dialogue of Rikke who mentions the Thalmor are doing an Inquisition while the war is raging, making matters worse. Also in the Thalmor Dossier 'Indirect Stormcloak aid' and when listening to Stormcloak soldiers they talk about someone was grabbed by the Thalmor, wasn't long before they found themselves under Stormcloaks banner.


Explain to me why it would overall harm their position in Skyrim if the Imperial legion won the war by defeating a bunch former legionnaires who gone rogue? What is stopping Ulfric from using the Greybeard training to benefit his army? To teach the Thu'um to his army? Granted it takes many years to accomplish this, but still that's a great improvement for his military.

He won't. He respects the Greybeards teaching, and tries to not use the Thu'um. He mentions a lot of their training stuck, even though he knows his old Master wouldn't agree to his use of the voice.



I don't see a problem with giving Jarls armies. Why is that such a bad thing? Upon Ulfrics death will be a successor to carry on his life long work to keep Skyrim to their old Nordic traditions. If for any reason Ulfric doesn't bare children the responsibilities will most likely be carried on to his next high general to become the new King once the moot declares it of course.

Nine armies. Under Jarls who all see the cause differently, and who either believe Ulfric is selfish and power hungry or believe he's like the second coming of Talos.

The moot never agrees.


Hammwerfell is most likely going to side with Ulfric rather than the Imperial milk drinkers who surrenders so easily.

Why would Hammerfell side with Skyrim? To what seems to be suggested the war is very close. Ulfric will most likely be rebuilding for the rest of his life. The Stormcloaks also seek to lead Tamriel.

Nords leading Redguards? Not even Tiber Septim was able to do that, he had to form a treaty after rebellion. Where the Redguards felt they're part of the Empire, but not a subject.


And what makes you think the Imperial Legion is ready to continue with the great war? 500 nords manage to fought and won the war against the snow elves, and Skyrim became the homeland of the Nords. What makes you think history will repeat itself? The Stormcloaks are already getting a lot of support, and Legate rikke can acknowledge it.

Because nearly the entire Imperial army is sitting on the Dominion's door step waiting for the order. Alright let me tell you about these 500 Nords.

1) They had the best enchantments known to men and mer of the Era.

2) They also had Mages

3) It took a lot more than '500' but in fact it wasn't until the 13th generation of Ysgramor. That they finally won the 'war'.


And you're sadly underestimating Nords.

Fourth Era Nords, most definitely. Stormcloaks have no Battlemages.


Ulfric has no other choice but to fight for the thorne. He was obligated to do it for the love of his homeland. The Empire king wasn't doing a damn thing to what was going on in Skyrim. He was weak and couldn't even defend himself... how on earth can he defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself in battle?

Torygg could defend himself, he had some martial training. Ulfric was a trained Legionary and he actually used the Thu'um to shout Torygg down, and kill him.

How can a King defend all of Skyrim when he couldn't defend himself in battle? Warriors don't often make good Kings. Majority of the Kings of old, died shortly in their reigns.

He started a war because he had to. The Thalmor put essentially put on a shock collar over the Empires neck, and as a result all of the provinces under the Empires rulings also had to suffer from the treaty that the Emperor had signed.

And yet, the treaty has been in place for twenty six years. How come all this 'suffering' is in Skyrim and only when Ulfric and his Stormcloaks started their uprising? The Thalmor are using the Stormcloaks to weaken the Empire and Skyrim.

If you want a little history lesson. The Thalmor hate the Empire, they hate everything it stands for. They want to destroy the Empire. But they won't stop there. They'll come for Skyrim and High Rock.

If Cyrodiil falls, majority of Tamriel will also. Chances are TES VI will have the Thalmor as the rulers of Tamriel.
 

Rimfaxe96

Well-Known Member
I don't think the Nord from Markarth was openly worshiping Talos. He didn't have an amulet of Talos around his neck. He kept it inside of his own home yet the Talmor was pursuing him.

On a sidenote; the Thalmor wanted Talos worship to be banned, both open worship and 'private' worship. If you're suspected to be a worshipper, you'll be safe as long as you're in a city with a Jarl who'll wave your pursuers off if they don't have evidence. If you're somewhere in those villages like Dragonbridge or Riverwood, well damn, then you might as well be at the wrong place in the wrong time to get kidnapped.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I don't think the Nord from Markarth was openly worshiping Talos. He didn't have an amulet of Talos around his neck. He kept it inside of his own home yet the Talmor was pursuing him.

On a sidenote; the Thalmor wanted Talos worship to be banned, both open worship and 'private' worship. If you're suspected to be a worshipper, you'll be safe as long as you're in a city with a Jarl who'll wave your pursuers off if they don't have evidence. If you're somewhere in those villages like Dragonbridge or Riverwood, well damn, then you might as well be at the wrong place in the wrong time to get kidnapped.

This. The whole 'ban' was more than likely a tool to be used by the Thalmor to weaken and hopefully destroy the Empire from the inside to make it easy to conquer from the outside.

Reading the Dossier and just paying attention to the game at large, tells me that the Civil War is being fought under false pretenses.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Imperial Legion/Supporters Lie #1

Ulfric Stormcloak brought the Thalmor over to Skyrim after his incident in Markarth.

FALSE!
Cd9JHvF.png

Notice how this Thalmor didn't speak of 1 word about the Stormcloaks nor Ulfric? Did you see how he mention "Emperor"? you got it. The Empire brought them over due to the treaty that they signed to end the great war.
 

Seanu Reaves

The Shogun of Gaming
He mentions "false Gods" Which means Talos though... And who is making the biggest fuss over Talos?

And also by that logic you see this Thalmor saying Elven Masters... Yet the empire is gearing up to fight them.

You are essentially trusting an indoctrinated soldier at face value.
If you go to North Korea, they will tell you how you are inferior and weak, and how Kim Il Sung was a god (or God esk) figure. Does that make it true? By your logic it seems so...
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
The High elves kicked the Empire's ass once they can do it again. Don't think for a moment that the Aldmeri Dominion isn't getting ready for second round because they're very much getting ready as the empire. A treaty will not save the Empire this time.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Imperial Legion/Supporters Lie #1

Ulfric Stormcloak brought the Thalmor over to Skyrim after his incident in Markarth.

FALSE!

Notice how this Thalmor didn't speak of 1 word about the Stormcloaks nor Ulfric? Did you see how he mention "Emperor"? you got it. The Empire brought them over due to the treaty that they signed to end the great war.

"Whole group of those Thalmor came and they demanded Ulfric's arrest." - Cedran, about the Markarth Incident

The Thalmor were always going to establish a presence, the Markarth Incident sped things up. No doubt. Why would they speak about Ulfric or the Stormcloaks? The Thalmor go to extreme lengths to make the Empire look bad, with the parties and their large Inquisition. Fueling the rebellion, because silly little boys like yourself get so wrapped up by what the Thalmor say, and do. Can't see yourself being manipulated to weaken the Empire of Man.

The High elves kicked the Empire's ass once they can do it again. Don't think for a moment that the Aldmeri Dominion isn't getting ready for second round because they're very much getting ready as the empire. A treaty will not save the Empire this time.

Not in the sense you're thinking of, Dominion's success was due to the unpreparedness of the Empire and the weakened Military they currently had. Next war will be more devastating. Or it won't, since the Civil War could be the spark that causes the fall of the Third Empire and the succession of the Thalmor as rulers of Tamriel.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Imperial Legion/Supporters Lie #1

Ulfric Stormcloak brought the Thalmor over to Skyrim after his incident in Markarth.

FALSE!


Prior to the Markarth Incident, Thalmor had to take the Emperor at his word that Talos ban was being enforced. Now, I'm sure the Thalmor had offices here and there however information about the Markarth Incident suggest the Justiciars weren't active in Skyrim until afterwards.

Alvor says that no one even paid attention to 'it' when he was a boy. But then Ulfric and his Sons of Skyrim started agitating about it and the Emperor had to crack down.

The Emperor was FORCED to allow the Justiciars to roam Skyrim after Ulfric and his Militia started attracting attention to the Ban on Talos. If you actually read that Justiciar's Dialogue, it's really quite compelling. And executing Torygg did not help matters either.

Thalmor are there in Skyrim specifically to enforce what they 'admit' the Empire wasn't enforcing properly or at all.

So... technically The Stormcloaks are lieing about that one.

And there's other evidence too, just talk to the Jarl of Markarth and Ondolomor. That's why Ondolomor and those Thalmor soldiers are in Markarth.

Now, the truth and the truth isn't always pretty or what you want it to be.

No, the truth is... Jarl Ingmund (or his sons, whichever) struck a deal with Ulfric while he was cooperating with the Thalmor. Unbeknownst to the Jarl and the Empire, Ulfric was setting them up by using the Markarth Incident as a PR campaign for his cause while at the same time, the Thalmor were setting up Ulfric to take the fall so they could execute phase# 2 for their plans in Skyrim.

Ulfric gets the Empire to renig on the treaty, opening the door to the Thalmor, then Thalmor make an example out of Ulfric, Ulfric uses the fallout from that to validate his war against the Empire for his own personal benefit. From the first 5 mins of the game, in the cart ride, Ralof states that Ulfric is the True High King of Skyrim. That is one of their goals if not the main objective, other than getting rid of the Empire and possibly the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks are not actually Freedom Fighters... they are more like the Ultra-Nationalist party fronting Conservatism.
One of the very first things I noticed from the Stormcloak quest line is you never take any quests to raid or otherwise engage the Thalmor.

In other words, the Empire banned Talos because of the Thalmor, however Ulfric is 'pimping' Talos.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
10385.jpg
Raijin said:
The High elves kicked the Empire's ass once they can do it again. Don't think for a moment that the Aldmeri Dominion isn't getting ready for second round because they're very much getting ready as the empire. A treaty will not save the Empire this time.​
Not in the sense you're thinking of, Dominion's success was due to the unpreparedness of the Empire and the weakened Military they currently had. Next war will be more devastating. Or it won't, since the Civil War could be the spark that causes the fall of the Third Empire and the succession of the Thalmor as rulers of Tamriel.


If Ulfric has his way, then yes. lol This is what you can all look forward to. Skyrim will probably be 'safe' in it's little corner, not giving a fl*ff about everyone else. Who tried to save them. Of course, 'safe' doesn't mean free. Saving Skyrim from the WGC so everyone can be 'safe' may not actually provide them with freedom in the longrun.

Not if Cyrodil falls.

Things will revert to like they were back in the good old days of High Adventure. With Pelinal and Ayleids and the Thalmor in Cyrodil might break away from Alinor... Human slaves running around everywhere... da-dee da-dum...

Highly, Highly doubt Ulfric would try and save anyone. Too many Nords don't want to fight 'The Empire's Wars' and, Ulfric tells the truth in his opening speech at Windhelm, however he tells everyone what they want to hear at Solitude. He even expresses fear/concern over the Thalmor turning their attention to Skyrim.

Simply put, Ulfric didn't save the Redguards... he won't save anyone else. He's a user.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Imperial Legion/Supporters Lie #1

Ulfric Stormcloak brought the Thalmor over to Skyrim after his incident in Markarth.

FALSE!
Cd9JHvF.png

Notice how this Thalmor didn't speak of 1 word about the Stormcloaks nor Ulfric? Did you see how he mention "Emperor"? you got it. The Empire brought them over due to the treaty that they signed to end the great war.


Noticed how the Thalmor consider the province apart of the Empire in that dialogue? They want the EMPIRE warring with the EMPIRE.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Correct. And they consider themselves over him. No Professional courtesy whatsoever. :p

I also like how they said, "...he agreed the Empire would give up false Gods and foolish beliefs."

Of course, the question is... was that really his intention? I know what it says from The Talos Mistake, however that appears to be just propaganda.

Although TMII does wear a Talos Amulet. Found that pretty interesting. Pretty damning for him if anyone else knew this before he resigned. Which pretty much invalidates alot of what Ulfric said about him.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
"Not in the sense you're thinking of, Dominion's success was due to the unpreparedness of the Empire and the weakened Military they currently had. Next war will be more devastating. Or it won't, since the Civil War could be the spark that causes the fall of the Third Empire and the succession of the Thalmor as rulers of Tamriel.

You think The Aldmeri Dominion doesn't realize that the Empire is getting ready for round two? Yes round two will be far more devastating than the previous one because the Dominion will most likely not to accept a whole new treaty due to the fact that the Dominion are fighting to become the new rulers of tamerial. They're fighting to totally evict the Empire from the throne and for the Aldmeri Dominion to become the new Empire.

Quite frankly it's for the best that the Dominion win considering how the humans behave and react.

Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Tullius knew that this is what the Thalmor wanted (For him and Ulfric to fight) and he willingly played along knowing that his elven overlords wanted this civil war to go as long as it did.
 

Seanu Reaves

The Shogun of Gaming
Tullius knew that this is what the Thalmor wanted (For him and Ulfric to fight) and he willingly played along knowing that his elven overlords wanted this civil war to go as long as it did.


Ummm... Okay... So him being a good soldier... Winning the Civil War man to man even with half the holds not on his side... And being smart enough to see the bigger picture... Is a negative?

And by extension Ulfric being short sighed, selfish, and ignorant is the better option?

What is your argument exactly? Also looking at a semi official timeline Tulius won in less than a year.

4E 201 The High King of Skyrim is killed by Ulfric Stormcloak, Jarl of Windhelm.
  • Ulfric kills the High King Torygg (probably with the help of the Thu'um, although there are arguments for and against this) and proclaims right to the throne, following ancient Nordic custom. [7] [8]
4E 201 The Nords of Skyrim engage in a Civil War.
  • Ulfric begins the Stormcloak rebellion in an attempt to take the throne of the High King and secede from the Empire.
  • Ulfric is captured and sent to Helgen to be executed along with other rebels and two unrelated prisoners after a surprise ambush led by Imperial General Tullius.
  • Ulfric Stormcloak escapes the execution, and resumes the position of the Jarl of Windhelm.
4E 201 --- The Dragon Crisis Begins
Tulius let the war go on to long. With out a dragons intervention he got Ulfric within Months... And even with Thalmor trying to directly intercede (On Ulfric's behalf) still was willing to end it all at Helgen.

Elven masters my Ass. Tulius is willing to tell the elves to go fluff themselves whenever he has the upper hand. Basically a smart man in military and political conflicts.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
"Not in the sense you're thinking of, Dominion's success was due to the unpreparedness of the Empire and the weakened Military they currently had. Next war will be more devastating. Or it won't, since the Civil War could be the spark that causes the fall of the Third Empire and the succession of the Thalmor as rulers of Tamriel.

You think The Aldmeri Dominion doesn't realize that the Empire is getting ready for round two? Yes round two will be far more devastating than the previous one because the Dominion will most likely not to accept a whole new treaty due to the fact that the Dominion are fighting to become the new rulers of tamerial. They're fighting to totally evict the Empire from the throne and for the Aldmeri Dominion to become the new Empire.

Quite frankly it's for the best that the Dominion win considering how the humans behave and react.

Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Tullius knew that this is what the Thalmor wanted (For him and Ulfric to fight) and he willingly played along knowing that his elven overlords wanted this civil war to go as long as it did.


First Bold: Then why can't you see that the Thalmor want the Rebellion to continue, and weaken humanity as a whole in the process?

Second Bold: Oh, right, you love the rebels, and can't see that the rebels are the tools here.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Elven masters my Ass. Tulius is willing to tell the elves to go fluff themselves whenever he has the upper hand. Basically a smart man in military and political conflicts.


Ahmm. Would just like to remind you that some of the Thalmor are Master Wizards which does indeed, make them Masters. This does not, however, mean the Thalmor are handling Skyrim properly. That is politics.
 

poprotzy

New Member
At the beginning, the imperial that you have the option to go with, seems kind enough. He is reluctant to even allow you to the block, and apologizes when the captain says that you have to. All in all, after meeting Ulfric, he's a huge scumbag. He's honestly power obsessed, and only wants Skyrim under his belt for the good of himself. The Imperials want Skyrim to be a land of peace again. They have good intentions for the well being of Skyrim. Whoever speaks out against them, they simply say "Do as you may, but Sovngarde awaits." When you speak out against the Stormcloaks, you're seen as a public enemy and embarrassment to man kind. The Stormcloaks will only see you as a human being if you obey what they say and be their foot stool. But who knows, this is what I've collected and I enjoy a role play aspect of Skyrim. If that's not you, then choose whichever side has the most appealing armor and/or weapons to you.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
First Bold: Then why can't you see that the Thalmor want the Rebellion to continue, and weaken humanity as a whole in the process?

Second Bold: Oh, right, you love the rebels, and can't see that the rebels are the tools here.

I don't love the rebels. I can understand their cause and their overwhelming frustration at what their politicians are doing to them due to the fact that they didn't win the war due to bad intelligence on their side.

I know exactly what the Stormcloaks are feeling and have to deal with because I'm in the same booth as they are. Both my local and federal government is essentially threatening me with prison time if I decided to take a certain route to a medical treatment that can help levitate some of my medical conditions.

The worship of Talos is the Nordic way of life. The Thalmor knew that this would happen, and knew that people would react over the ban of Talos. That's why they forced the Emperor to ban the worship of Talos, to get people angry at the Empire. How exactly is the rebels considered a tool when the Empire is just as much as a tool as the rebels? If the Empire was smart they would've separate the provinces that they rule with a guarantee treaty of being allies. With High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim have their own rulers the Thalmor would have absolutely no jurisdiction over them due to the fact that it's no longer the province of the Empire. The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
8972.jpg
Jeremius said:
First Bold: Then why can't you see that the Thalmor want the Rebellion to continue, and weaken humanity as a whole in the process?​
Second Bold: Oh, right, you love the rebels, and can't see that the rebels are the tools here.​
I don't love the rebels. I can understand their cause and their overwhelming frustration at what their politicians are doing to them due to the fact that they didn't win the war due to bad intelligence on their side.

I know exactly what the Stormcloaks are feeling and have to deal with because I'm in the same booth as they are. Both my local and federal government is essentially threatening me with prison time if I decided to take a certain route to a medical treatment that can help levitate some of my medical conditions.

The worship of Talos is the Nordic way of life. The Thalmor knew that this would happen, and knew that people would react over the ban of Talos. That's why they forced the Emperor to ban the worship of Talos, to get people angry at the Empire. How exactly is the rebels considered a tool when the Empire is just as much as a tool as the rebels? If the Empire was smart they would've separate the provinces that they rule with a guarantee treaty of being allies. With High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim have their own rulers the Thalmor would have absolutely no jurisdiction over them due to the fact that it's no longer the province of the Empire. The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.


Here the thing. Jarl B's Whiterun is essentially a separate country. It's like an Ind hold. So was Markarth when it was under the Reachman for those two years. Empire never bothered either of these entities.

Question for you... who forced them to lose their Ind or join the Empire? Furthermore, Ulfric skipped the Olive Branch and never petitioned Torygg to stand up and declare independence in any official capacity.

In other words, who forced them to take sides?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You think The Aldmeri Dominion doesn't realize that the Empire is getting ready for round two? Yes round two will be far more devastating than the previous one because the Dominion will most likely not to accept a whole new treaty due to the fact that the Dominion are fighting to become the new rulers of tamerial. They're fighting to totally evict the Empire from the throne and for the Aldmeri Dominion to become the new Empire.

You think the Empire doesn't realize the Dominion is also getting ready for round two? Both sides are gearing up for the war, the Empire had a five-six year head start at the end of the Great War.

You keep mentioning a new treaty, do you have any source to even back up there will even be a new treaty? The Empire signed the treaty to rebuild after they had been invaded, and nearly destroyed. The White-Gold Concordat is temporary, a pause between Storms.

There will be no treaty, the Empire is fighting to survive. The Thalmor are against everything the Empire stands for, they are sworn enemies. The Empire at least understands the threat to the very existence. When you're fighting to survive, you fight harder and more desperate.

Quite frankly it's for the best that the Dominion win considering how the humans behave and react.

How humans like Ulfric behave and react, taking one issue that wasn't even a problem in Skyrim. The Talos Ban, so poorly enforced basically every Nord still had their little shrines. But, he had to stir things up so he could become the next High King.

He didn't even try to remove Skyrim from the Empire peacefully, not once did he stand with his new King. He merely waited until the old King died, to challenge the new King. Because he damn well knew, Torygg's father was well respected. He used the rally of Talos, starting a Holy War to merely achieve the throne.

Playing his subjects with his grand speeches, talking about traditions and honor. Saying he can't take the title of King until the Moot accepts him. All the while, quietly talking to Galmar saying it was a nice touch about High King. His swords at the throat of all the Jarls, will ensure he becomes High King.

Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Tullius knew that this is what the Thalmor wanted (For him and Ulfric to fight) and he willingly played along knowing that his elven overlords wanted this civil war to go as long as it did.

Tullius knew the Thalmor stirred up trouble, he wasn't going to let the Thalmor and their asset Ulfric Stormcloak win. He considers them a great threat. Tullius knew the situation, it was how he most likely was able to capture Ulfric in the first place. Even with the Thalmor running interference.

'Elven Overlords' Lol. At least Tullius knows what the Thalmor are up to, the Stormcloaks too blind and naive, too hot headed and unwilling to step back and see what it is they're doing.

They've let a charismatic politician, manipulate them until they're so messed up and so wrapped up in his ego. They actually believe it was Torygg who accepted the White-Gold Concordat, and that the Empire surrendered when the Imperial City was nearly destroyed.

How easily they forget the Battle of the Red Ring, or High King Istlod who accepted the treaty for Skyrim.

If the Empire was smart they would've separate the provinces that they rule with a guarantee treaty of being allies. With High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim have their own rulers the Thalmor would have absolutely no jurisdiction over them due to the fact that it's no longer the province of the Empire. The only country that the Thalmor can legally harass is Cyrodiil.

Because High Rock wants to remain part of the Empire. So too does majority of Skyrim, the Empire didn't want to have a Civil War. If Ulfric was smart, he'd have asked his King to declare independence. Peacefully from the Empire, without bloodshed, with treaties to keep trade and other things open.

There is no reason whatsoever, to suggest the Empire wouldn't let Skyrim leave. They have enough problems, but Ulfric forced their hand. The Empire wasn't getting involved in the war, which went on for years. Until Ulfric decided to kill High King Torygg. He forced their hand, when the Empire did not want to get involved.

They're still not fully involved. Skyrim is getting little attention, even now at full scale Civil War. The Emperor just sent Tullius to handle the situation, which he nearly did end it. Other than that, even Ulfric won't make a move on Solitude with the Emperor in Skyrim. Because he doesn't want the Empire's full attention, or to give them reason to crush him.
 

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