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Sahdira

Member
Sahdira has heard tales of ancient Illusion spells that could be used to camouflage and spells to charm unsuspecting fools. She wishes to see such magic. How useful it would be! The selection of Illusion spells is paltry. Sahdira can replicate any of those with potions and poisons.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
Sahdira has heard tales of ancient Illusion spells that could be used to camouflage and spells to charm unsuspecting fools. She wishes to see such magic. How useful it would be! The selection of Illusion spells is paltry. Sahdira can replicate any of those with potions and poisons.



Welcome to the forums and my hate thread. :)

I agree, the high level spells are nothing more than more powerful versions of the equally boring low level spells. You outgrow 80% of your total Illusion spells... and one of those is only really viable if you travel with a posse. Which I don't. In fact, I should be able to conjure up an Illusionary posse for distraction at least.

Now that I can say that I've taken Illusion as far as it can go... Vamp Lord and everything... I can also say that they dropped the ball big time in implementing the Illusion spells. So many possibilities yet, like you said, all can be accomplished by other means with less investment.

Why waste time and perks when you can just Frenzy an arrow or two?
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I have only tried Illusion a few times and my problem is that its effects don't scale up the way I expect. By the time I am meeting higher level foes I seem to get "XXX is unaffected by Spell" almost all the time. As a result I have to use Destruction and/or combat to kill them. This ups my Destruction and Combat skills, raises the level of my next opponent, and now I am even worse off.
Did you take the Dual Casting, Animage and Hypnotic Gaze perks? Your Calm should have affected every thing that can be effected by Calm spells and Fury and Fear should have worked on most creatures.

Illusion is a crowd control school of magic and it works great if that's your goal. It's pretty essential for a pacifist build. The point isn't to destroy your enemies. It's to shut them down. At high levels you can actually breeze through encounter areas faster than most other builds but if you feel the need to kill everything then it's not the school of magic for you.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
I have only tried Illusion a few times and my problem is that its effects don't scale up the way I expect. By the time I am meeting higher level foes I seem to get "XXX is unaffected by Spell" almost all the time. As a result I have to use Destruction and/or combat to kill them. This ups my Destruction and Combat skills, raises the level of my next opponent, and now I am even worse off.
Did you take the Dual Casting, Animage and Hypnotic Gaze perks? Your Calm should have affected every thing that can be effected by Calm spells and Fury and Fear should have worked on most creatures.

Illusion is a crowd control school of magic and it works great if that's your goal. It's pretty essential for a pacifist build. The point isn't to destroy your enemies. It's to shut them down. At high levels you can actually breeze through encounter areas faster than most other builds but if you feel the need to kill everything then it's not the school of magic for you.

It's only a crowd control type magic because that's the only thing you can do with it. That doesn't make it great. It makes it narrow.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
It's only a crowd control type magic because that's the only thing you can do with it.
I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make with this statement. It's no different than saying Destruction is a killing school of magic because that's the only thing you can do with it. It is what it is.
That doesn't make it great. It makes it narrow.
I said it's great if your goal is crowd control. That's objectively and analytically true no matter how you try to rephrase it. It's no more narrow than Destruction magic giving you killing as the only option to deal with enemies.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
It's only a crowd control type magic because that's the only thing you can do with it.
I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make with this statement. It's no different than saying Destruction is a killing school of magic because that's the only thing you can do with it. It is what it is.
That doesn't make it great. It makes it narrow.
I said it's great if your goal is crowd control. That's objectively and analytically true no matter how you try to rephrase it. It's no more narrow than Destruction magic giving you killing as the only option to deal with enemies.



Destruction is way less narrow. First off, you can hurl direct damage tailor made against your opponent. Fire, ice or shock depending on your opponents weaknesses. You can set booby traps with Runes. You can start pools of oil and flammable gasses on fire with any flame spell. You can lay a wall of damage down on the ground and force your opponents to come through it in order to get to you. You can wrap yourself in the element of your choice for protection. Not to mention using Ice to slow down opponents so as to make an escape.

Destruction as narrow as Illusion? Not buying it.
 

HappyFaceClown

PunkNation
It's only a crowd control type magic because that's the only thing you can do with it.
I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make with this statement. It's no different than saying Destruction is a killing school of magic because that's the only thing you can do with it. It is what it is.
That doesn't make it great. It makes it narrow.
I said it's great if your goal is crowd control. That's objectively and analytically true no matter how you try to rephrase it. It's no more narrow than Destruction magic giving you killing as the only option to deal with enemies.
My main gripe with illusion magic is simply that it does not work half the time, i can't count how many times its gotten me killed all cuz i shot a bolt of frenzy at a group of high level bandits from a mile away and instead of attacking each other they all decided to hike up the mountain to where i was and slaughter me! Its just not reliable, i dunno if bethesda designed it this way on purpose or if its a bug but either way it sucks.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
It's all just inflicting damage. Everything you referenced is a damage effect. Cloaks don't provide any protection. I don't know why you would think that. The primary purpose of the Destruction school of magic is to inflict damage on your enemies. Period. Pointing to different damage types is no more compelling than pointing to different kinds of crowd control effects. You have three damage types in Destruction and three controlling effects in Illusion.

You didn't even bother to note the aspects of Destruction magic that actually do add diversity to the effects, i.e. that frost slows movement and drains stamina (although it doesn't stack which makes the slowing effect kind of useless), shock drains magicka allowing you to shut down spellcasters, and fire can cause Fear on targets which crowd controls them allowing you to move on to another target.

I could care less what you're buying. The fact of the matter is that Destruction magic ultimately only offers the same solution to every hostile encounter as most builds, which is killing every one and everything that is hostile to you. Alteration, Illusion and Restoration provide alternative strategies for dealing with hostile encounters. I can run through an interior cell all day long leveling the skill as well. You can't do that with Destruction magic because the Destruction way of dealing with things clears the area.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
My main gripe with illusion magic is simply that it does not work half the time, i can't count how many times its gotten me killed all cuz i shot a bolt of frenzy at a group of high level bandits from a mile away and instead of attacking each other they all decided to hike up the mountain to where i was and slaughter me! Its just not reliable, i dunno if bethesda designed it this way on purpose or if its a bug but either way it sucks.
If you're going to use Frenzy effectively you have to use stealth, e.g. the Quiet Casting perk, and the Muffle and Invisibility spells. The reason why they're attacking you is because even though a Frenzy spell does no damage it's still flagged as an assault by the game and the NPC AI so it's like going up to a guy and causing him to be generally pissed off while punching him in the face. You have to be undetectable by your target to ensure that they won't aggro on you.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
It's all just inflicting damage. Everything you referenced is a damage effect. Cloaks don't provide any protection. I don't know why you would think that. The primary purpose of the Destruction school of magic is to inflict damage on your enemies. Period. Pointing to different damage types is no more compelling than pointing to different kinds of crowd control effects. You have three damage types in Destruction and three controlling effects in Illusion.

You didn't even bother to note the aspects of Destruction magic that actually do add diversity to the effects, i.e. that frost slows movement and drains stamina (although it doesn't stack which makes the slowing effect kind of useless), shock drains magicka allowing you to shut down spellcasters, and fire can cause Fear on targets which crowd controls them allowing you to move on to another target.

I could care less what you're buying. The fact of the matter is that Destruction magic ultimately only offers the same solution to every hostile encounter as most builds, which is killing every one and everything that is hostile to you. Alteration, Illusion and Restoration provide alternative strategies for dealing with hostile encounters. I can run through an interior cell all day long leveling the skill as well. You can't do that with Destruction magic because the Destruction way of dealing with things clears the area.



Now you are reaching. If you are saying that a cloak that kills/damages things that enter its radius isn't a form of protection then I don't know what to tell you. I don't know about you, but I've laid down a Wall of Storms many times and watched as bandits refused to cross. How is that not protection?

The main problem I have with Illusion is that the effects barely qualify as illusion. They fall more into the realm of psionics or something. Illusion to me is more about tricking the eye, then the mind. Skyrim Illusion basically skips the eye and affects the mind. Lame and boring in my opinion.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Now you are reaching. If you are saying that a cloak that kills/damages things that enter its radius isn't a form of protection then I don't know what to tell you.
Then you don't know what to tell me because your the only one reaching here. Protection is damage resistance. A cloak does nothing to stop enemies from attacking you. It has zero influence on their combat AI.
I don't know about you, but I've laid down a Wall of Storms many times and watched as bandits refused to cross. How is that not protection?
I've never seen any enemy refuse to cross an elemental damage wall. I have seen them use ranged attacks instead of crossing the area but that's what they would do normally anyway. When an enemy doesn't have any ranged attacking options I've seen them walk through or attempt to walk through elemental damage walls to get to me. I've laid them down as thick as an entire hallway length and it doesn't deter them which is great for me when a group of them chases me down a narrow hallway as a I lay down the effect while retreating.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
Now you are reaching. If you are saying that a cloak that kills/damages things that enter its radius isn't a form of protection then I don't know what to tell you.
Then you don't know what to tell me because your the only one reaching here. Protection is damage resistance. A cloak does nothing to stop enemies from attacking you. It has zero influence on their combat AI.
I don't know about you, but I've laid down a Wall of Storms many times and watched as bandits refused to cross. How is that not protection?
I've never seen any enemy refuse to cross an elemental damage wall. I have seen them use ranged attacks instead of crossing the area but that's what they would do normally anyway. When an enemy doesn't have any ranged attacking options I've seen them walk through or attempt to walk through elemental damage walls to get to me. I've laid them down as thick as an entire hallway length and it doesn't deter them which is great for me when a group of them chases me down a narrow hallway as a I lay down the effect while retreating.


And you don't consider that protection???

Lol... anyway, Illusion can be very powerful, as I've mentioned numerous times. I just think it was implemented very, very poorly thus making it boring. You can throw as many data paragraphs as you want at me and it won't change my opinion. Bethesda dropped the ball on Illusion magic.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
And you don't consider that protection???
No. If you deem that protection then you're adopting a rather absurd position that anything that inflicts damage is protection. By that line of though my Archer's bow is protection because she can kill a group of enemies before they can lay a finger on her with it in open combat. When speaking in terms of game mechanics protection means damage resistance, i.e. physical damage resistance. magic resistance, elemental damage resistance, poison resistance, disease resistance, fall damage resistance and spell absorption. If you ascribe the infliction of damage as a form of protection because dead enemies can't inflict damage then the word doesn't convey anything meaningful and there's little point in even using the term.
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
And you don't consider that protection???
No. If you deem that protection then you're adopting a rather absurd position that anything that inflicts damage is protection. By that line of though my Archer's bow is protection because she can kill a group of enemies before they can lay a finger on her with it in open combat. When speaking in terms of game mechanics protection means damage resistance, i.e. physical damage resistance. magic resistance, elemental damage resistance, poison resistance, disease resistance, fall damage resistance and spell absorption. If you ascribe the infliction of damage as a form of protection because dead enemies can't inflict damage then the word doesn't convey anything meaningful and there's little point in even using the term.



I see. You feel like arguing silly and splitting hairs. Not interested. But do me a favor and keep replying so I can keep this thread bumped. I'd like to lure in more haters. Thanks in advance.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I see. You feel like arguing silly and splitting hairs. Not interested. But do me a favor and keep replying so I can keep this thread bumped. I'd like to lure in more haters. Thanks in advance.
Ascribing definiitions to words so they have meaning isn't splitting hairs. It's a cornerstone of logical discourse even if you lack the capacity to appreciate that fact and can only rely on enganging in logical fallacies that require adopting absurd and lolable positions but have fun with that. :rolleyes:
 

LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
I see. You feel like arguing silly and splitting hairs. Not interested. But do me a favor and keep replying so I can keep this thread bumped. I'd like to lure in more haters. Thanks in advance.
Ascribing definiitions to words so they have meaning isn't splitting hairs. It's a cornerstone of logical discourse even if you lack the capacity to appreciate that fact and can only rely on enganging in logical fallacies that require adopting absurd and lolable positions but have fun with that. :rolleyes:



Thanks. Keep it coming. I'll give you a rep point for every bump starting now.
 
Without getting involved in your discussion, I'd like to throw in my opinion and say that illusion is great. Its easily my favorite school, to say that it has no/bad uses, is clearly proof that whomever makes that claim, has very little imagination with spellcraft and spell casting combination. I have literally went through an entire dungeon using solely illusion magic, nothing else, just to see if it could be done. To those mages I say, go destruction. It takes a lot less imagination.

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LotusEater

I brake for blue butterflies
Without getting involved in your discussion, I'd like to throw in my opinion and say that illusion is great. Its easily my favorite school, to say that it has no/bad uses, is clearly proof that whomever makes that claim, has very little imagination with spellcraft and spell casting combination. I have literally went through an entire dungeon using solely illusion magic, nothing else, just to see if it could be done. To those mages I say, go destruction. It takes a lot less imagination.

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So your claim is that people who think Illusion is boring just don't know how to use it properly. It's no secret that you can use Illusion for days and not get involved in melee and it's not even complicated to do so. That's the point. Easy=Boring imo.

I would prefer if my high-level boring Illusion spells weren't just retreads of low-level boring Illusion spells. Even so, I'd enjoy using them a lot more even if there was just one little effect besides an aura. Fear spell... ok... how about a simple holographic anything for them to run from?
 
The name of the thread is "I officially hate illusion" not "I find illusion boring". In reading this thread all I have seen is complaints about how illusion has let people down through not affecting higher level enemies, or making frenzied enemies hostile to there selves. Its not people finding it boring that caused me to make such a claim, it is basic mistakes like those that caused it. As Dagmar said, sneaking whilst casing frenzy with the Silent Casting perk will NOT make the enemy run to your location, but rather attack he's/her/its comrades. The Frenzy spell affects levels 14 and lower coupled with the animage/kindred mage and rage perks brings this to around level 24, dual cast that makes it affect levels 48 and lower, it would be very difficult to find a group of opponents that Frenzy, used properly, wouldn't affect.

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If you were to see whatever it is that causes a enemy (well let's say bandit for example) to run in fear from a fear spell. Wouldn't that mean that you are under the influence of that spell? As it says in the game, illusion affects the opponents minds, not there eyes, they can see things that are not actually there and hear things that had not been said, whilst under the influence of illusion magic. If it was the illusion that you suggested i.e making a wall that enemies see, then creatures like Falmer would not be affected by illusion as they were rendered blind.

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