The death of Margaret Thatcher

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Cylos

The Last Dragonborn
As some of you may have heard, the former British Prime Minister Lady Thatcher died of a stroke earlier today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/margaret-thatcher-roundup-of-todays-full-coverage-8564595.html

Thought I'd share this with you all and see whether or not you had any comments. It could be anything from her policy, how she changed Britain, how she came across as a global figure (for you non British members)
I'll pause for a while before I make a comment, seeing as I was against her.
 

scarey

Member
I posted this on another forum, with a very different demographic to this forum. I'm interested to see how a younger group of people perceive Mrs T's legacy.


I was born in 1969, so I just remember the 70s, and the 80s rather well. For those who were not around then, or who have forgotten, let me tell you that the UK was in desperate straites by the time Mrs T came to power.
I did my homework by candlelight several nights per week. Power cuts you see. Yes, power cuts in the United Kingdom because there was no coal to fuel the power stations. No coal because the Miners were on strike. Again. And again. And again. Or even if they were not on strike, somebody else was, meaning that there was a picket line that could not be crossed by workers of any type - even those with no connection to the dispute. Imagine that, if the local car factory went on strike they could send pickets to the nearest power station and shut that down too. It was called secondary action. It went on everywhere. Everything stopped. And boy oh boy did the Unions use their muscle. You name the trade, it was on strike at least once a year, and of course with all these strikes and the resultant secondary actions, nothing got done. So we had stand pipes in the streets for water, candles for light, and parafin stoves or coal fires for heat. In Britain. In the 1970s.
Supermarket shelves were frequently empty. Hospitals rented refridgerated containers to store bodies for weeks on end (undertakers went on strike) petrol was rationed. RATIONED in 1970s Britain. If you had a job, there were long periods when you were only allowed to work 3 days a week. Not enough power for a 5 day week you see. Coal miners again.
And the filth, oh boy the filth. Google the images of Leicester Square at the height of the dustbinmens strike. 4 stories (I think) of rotting stench. Rats as big as terriers scampering around bold as brass. In Britain, in the 1970s.
And even when things were working, well they didn't. 6 months to get a phone line from the Post Office. And then you'd have to share it with your neighbour if you were not lucky - most young people think a party line is a premium rate number these days - back then it was how you got your phone service. As for what we produced as a nation... well it was laughable. Cars? Mostly plops. Televisions, washing machines, consumer goods? Mostly plops. So plops in fact that the British, who had staunchly bought British turned to anything but British goods. I remember the first little Datsun cars (Nissan today) arriving on these shores. Oh how we laughed at the notion that they might be better than our beloved Austin 1100s,..... Trouble is, all these foreign goods showed us what things should be like. Cars that ran reliably. Washing machines that lasted longer than 12 months. Motorcycles that kept their oil inside them. All novelties for a nation grown accustomed to Great British products produced by Great British Workers (when they could be bothered to turn up to work, on production lines that may or may not have had power to run them - Miners again)
And do you know what? The people got sick of it. And Mrs Thatcher came and changed all of that. The lights stayed on. We could have stuff, stuff that worked. We could own our homes, we could own our shares, we could get telephones in a few weeks instead of months - and we did not have to share them. Our streets became clean, and the dead eventually got buried.
She took on a task of modernising Britain that Governments had either shirked (Labour) or were defeated in doing by Unions(Conservative).
People drone on about how she gave no thought for communities that were reliant on coal and manufacturing. These were the same communities that gave no thought for the rest of the population as their selfish actions condemned us to the cold, the dark, the standpipes and the unending gloom that was the shiteness of Britain in the 1970s. But never mind that, the simple question is what could have been done? The country was skint. The miners and their unions and the hold that they had on the UK was such that what would have been merely a nasty boil that required lancing in the 1950s and 60s had turned into a full on gangrenous infection that required the amputation of the limb by the 1980s. Compassion you say? You say that as if there was ever any reasoning to be had with the Unions about the strikes and demands. Anyone who watched the annual televised event that was the TUC congress would have known that there was no reasoning with the forces of the left.
Having seen Heaths Government fall, and Callaghan emasculated, Thatcher came to power determined that the rule of Government should apply. Scargill was determined to maintain the power of the miners. There could be only one victor. Especially as North Sea Gas was now coming to heat our homes and fuel our power stations, the demand for coal, Britains addiction to coal in fact, was broken. The transition was brutal, but was made infinitely worse by the Unions. Honestly, who in the right minds would have considered that reasonable debate could have been had with them over a transition policy, given their behaviour of the previous 20+ years and the public positions adopted by the Union leadership and the TUC. The Unions betrayed the workers by convincing them that the fight to keep the status quo could be won....one more strike, one more dispute. The world owes us.

And now I see what my children live with today. The stuff that was a daily reality in 1970s Britain is long long gone. Indeed, most people do not even believe it happened, that it could have been as bad as it was.
Thatcher was no saint. She made mistakes. She got stuff wrong. But what she did well, she did brilliantly well, and that specifically was to turn this country towards a road of prosperity and enterprise. It has not all gone well, that is for sure, but compared to where we have come from, it is infinitely better !
She does not in any way deserve the opprobium that some in the UK have heaped upon her. It seems that Mrs T must be blamed for every ill, every knock, every disaster. I heard she also caused Hurricaine Katrina and is probably behind Kim Jong Un. They say you can judge the greatness of a person by how desperately their detractors attack them. By this measure alone Mrs Thatcher was a giant amongst pygmies.
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Sorry but good I fuc#ing hated her when she was alive and wont be changing my mind now she is dead. She fuc#ed this country up yes she did some good but that is outweighed by all the bad shi# she done. Her main aim was to crush the spirit of working class people and she did this with a big fuc# off smile on her face.
 

scarey

Member
Hated the unions, not the working class, she was working class.

If she hated the working class so much why did she let them buy their council houses at a big discount?

The 'working class' at the Nissan factory in Sunderland are consistently the most productive workers in motor manufacturing on the entire planet, bar none, and are rightly very proud of that fact. No unions.

The city you live in benefited greatly from the power of the unions being reduced. HP had a huge campus there. The thin bits that stick out the sides of Airbus's are built there.

Who would have invested in Britain when it was on strike?

In 1979, 29,000,000 working days were lost to strikes. Based on a normal working year of 220 days, that is an average of 132,000 workers on strike each and every day of the year.
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Hated the unions, not the working class, she was working class.

1. If she hated the working class so much why did she let them buy their council houses at a big discount?

The 'working class' at the Nissan factory in Sunderland are consistently the most productive workers in motor manufacturing on the entire planet, bar none, and are rightly very proud of that fact. No unions.

2. The city you live in benefited greatly from the power of the unions being reduced. HP had a huge campus there. The thin bits that stick out the sides of Airbus's are built there.

3. Who would have invested in Britain when it was on strike?

4. In 1979, 29,000,000 working days were lost to strikes. Based on a normal working year of 220 days, that is an average of 132,000 workers on strike each and every day of the year.

1. She did that just before the election to get votes she also tried these as well share giveaways in public industries, increasing tax allowances etc....

2. We build fuc# all in this country anymore why Mrs T and her goverment.

3. Bristol has suffered quite a bit from Mrs T's goverment.

4. She could of ended the strikes any time she wanted, she didn't want to loose face with the unions and carried on her bullying tactics untill this country was on it's knees. All our utilties are foreign owned British Gas - German BT - German ICI - Swedish etc... I will say though that the unions were way to powerful and the unfair demands on wages and working hours needed adressing and fair play to Mrs T she did sort it but at a pretty heavy cost in the end.

And I will add if she was so in favour of the working class what about the poll tax or the privatisation or the education system she fuc#ed up big time and then of course the cover up of Hillsborough disaster blaming you guessed it pissed up working class men when it was the police that fuc#ed up. Or the signing of the single european act, she lowered the tax for the rich, created the yuppie class and was in bed with Rupert Murdoch and all his cronies in the press. Lets not forget either that before the Falklands war Mrs T had the worst ratings a pm has ever had in this country like I said she did do some good but imo and just imo I think she was a nasty piece of work.

This is what people in Bristol think not that I condone people rejoicing over someones death I will draw the line somewhere.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html

But I will be giving this a few more plays today and tomorrow and the next day....

 

scarey

Member
Everything is built in China. Thatcher or no Thatcher everything would still be getting built in China. Germany builds a lot. They also never strike. America builds a lot. They never strike.

At the time of the '84 miners strikes the industry received £1,200,000,000 every year in state subsidies. Laws had been passed making it illegal for British industry to buy coal from abroad, because coal from abroad was 32% cheaper, yet the miners still were demanding a 15% pay rise.

The unions - not the working class, I want to make that distinction clear - had decided they ran the country, not Government. They had brought down the two previous Governments and were going for the hat-trick. Scargill never cared about the miners. They were his meal ticket, nothing more, nothing less, as he ably demonstrated earlier this year, still bleeding the NUM dry. His actions, and those of his union colleagues, made manufacturing impossible here.

How would you feel about being told, not asked, to go on strike, unpaid, because two of your colleagues have been fired because they brought sleeping bags and alarm clocks to their night shifts, and slept the whole shift?Every shift. That was British Leyland. It happened. The strike lasted three weeks. You just lost three weeks wages because the unions told you you had to strike. That it was unfair that your colleagues were sacked for sleeping through all their shifts. Worth three weeks wages to you?

I'm not a fan of Thatcher, but I'm a lot less of a fan of militant Trade Unionism. It took 22 years for there to be enough people of voting age, in the UK, who could not remember what it was like here to get the Tories out. Despite Thatcher and her cronies, what preceded was that bad it still took 22 years for anyone to be brave enough to vote labour back in.

1964 the term "zombie industries" was first coined to describe British heavy industry. So called, because there is no life left in them. That's a full fifteen years before Thatcher arrived.

Thatcher did not destroy manufacturing, the Trade Unions did. Long before Thatcher was an MP. She was just the first PM with a spine that Britain had for 30 years, and refused to give in to their demands. Maybe if all the previous PMs had done their job properly we would still have industry. But we don't. It was long gone before Thatcher arrived. That was just Custer's Last Stand.

I'll put it in to a football analogy.

I'm a Reading fan. Do you blame McDermott or Atkinson when we get relegated? We were not mathematically assured of relegation when Atkinson was hired, but he will be at the helm when we do. Who's grave do we dance on?
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Everything is built in China. Thatcher or no Thatcher everything would still be getting built in China. Germany builds a lot. They also never strike. America builds a lot. They never strike.

At the time of the '84 miners strikes the industry received £1,200,000,000 every year in state subsidies. Laws had been passed making it illegal for British industry to buy coal from abroad, because coal from abroad was 32% cheaper, yet the miners still were demanding a 15% pay rise.

The unions - not the working class, I want to make that distinction clear - had decided they ran the country, not Government. They had brought down the two previous Governments and were going for the hat-trick. Scargill never cared about the miners. They were his meal ticket, nothing more, nothing less, as he ably demonstrated earlier this year, still bleeding the NUM dry. His actions, and those of his union colleagues, made manufacturing impossible here.

How would you feel about being told, not asked, to go on strike, unpaid, because two of your colleagues have been fired because they brought sleeping bags and alarm clocks to their night shifts, and slept the whole shift?Every shift. That was British Leyland. It happened. The strike lasted three weeks. You just lost three weeks wages because the unions told you you had to strike. That it was unfair that your colleagues were sacked for sleeping through all their shifts. Worth three weeks wages to you?

I'm not a fan of Thatcher, but I'm a lot less of a fan of militant Trade Unionism. It took 22 years for there to be enough people of voting age, in the UK, who could not remember what it was like here to get the Tories out. Despite Thatcher and her cronies, what preceded was that bad it still took 22 years for anyone to be brave enough to vote labour back in.

1964 the term "zombie industries" was first coined to describe British heavy industry. So called, because there is no life left in them. That's a full fifteen years before Thatcher arrived.

Thatcher did not destroy manufacturing, the Trade Unions did. Long before Thatcher was an MP. She was just the first PM with a spine that Britain had for 30 years, and refused to give in to their demands. Maybe if all the previous PMs had done their job properly we would still have industry. But we don't. It was long gone before Thatcher arrived. That was just Custer's Last Stand.

I'll put it in to a football analogy.

I'm a Reading fan. Do you blame McDermott or Atkinson when we get relegated? We were not mathematically assured of relegation when Atkinson was hired, but he will be at the helm when we do. Who's grave do we dance on?

Yeah Arthur Scargill was a grade a cun# 100% agreed but at the end of the day Mrs T was all about making the rich richer and the poor poorer at the end of the day and that is why I dont like her.

Oh and to answer your question John Madejski as he is in charge.;)
 

scarey

Member
No she wasn't, but yes you are correct that is ultimately what happened. It also happened under Major. It also happened under Blair. It also happened under Brown. It will happen under Cameron. It will happen under the next Prime Minister.
Thatcher was about giving people the tools to allow anyone, irrespective of status, to achieve and better their life. Yes I'm aware of the irony that industry would normally be considered one of those basic tools. Especially as her premise was you have to earn what you achieve, but that if you are willing to work hard you should keep what you earn. 98% top tax rate? Ouch!
 

AS88

Well-Known Member
Staff member
This is the reaction I've had.

548470_10151456642599681_1460986201_n.jpg


As a 22 year old, I wasn't there to experience the circumstances at the time, but much of the vocal consensus on websites like Facebook seem to have a negative view of her, probably down to the media and parents' distaste for her.

Honestly, I don't know what to think. She was obviously very controversial, but I would love to see a PM these days with a bit of backbone, all the MPs and Cabinet these days are all about passing the book and avoiding blame, and nothing gets done because of it.

And also, scarey, I think you mean Adkins when referring to Reading. I should know, I'm from Sfuzzy kittenhorpe, where he went from being our physio to the most in-demand British manager outside of the Prem ;)

We used to sing "Who needs Mourinhoooo, we've got our physiooooo" :p

EDIT: Hilariously, Sc-u-n-th0rpe is still a bad word on these forums :rolleyes:
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
This is the reaction I've had.

548470_10151456642599681_1460986201_n.jpg


As a 22 year old, I wasn't there to experience the circumstances at the time, but much of the vocal consensus on websites like Facebook seem to have a negative view of her, probably down to the media and parents' distaste for her.

Honestly, I don't know what to think. She was obviously very controversial, but I would love to see a PM these days with a bit of backbone, all the MPs and Cabinet these days are all about passing the book and avoiding blame, and nothing gets done because of it.

And also, scarey, I think you mean Adkins when referring to Reading. I should know, I'm from Sfuzzy kittenhorpe, where he went from being our physio to the most in-demand British manager outside of the Prem ;)

We used to sing "Who needs Mourinhoooo, we've got our physiooooo" :p

EDIT: Hilariously, Sc-u-n-th0rpe is still a bad word on these forums :rolleyes:

Whoever edits the swear filter must of been for a visit then.;):D
 

scarey

Member
Nope 95% of us Reading fans incorrectly call him Atkins, and we live in a democracy, so we are correct, he is wrong.

I'm a very sceptical person. I rarely believe what people tell me, at face value, and never with politics. No one will tell you anything political without their own preferences affecting it. It's human nature. Especially now the internet exists it is very easy to find raw facts, from non-political organisations, and then make up your mind. For this particular debate, look for employment stats in various UK industries from 1964 onwards, see when the jobs were actually lost. For the "milk snatcher" nickname you need to start looking around 1968. Etc...

In fact, this is good advice for life. Find out, make your own mind up, don't be a sheep.
 

AS88

Well-Known Member
Staff member
He's a good manager, I hope you stick with him. :)

I'll leave you to politics :p
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Nope 95% of us Reading fans incorrectly call him Atkins, and we live in a democracy, so we are correct, he is wrong.

I'm a very sceptical person. I rarely believe what people tell me, at face value, and never with politics. No one will tell you anything political without their own preferences affecting it. It's human nature. Especially now the internet exists it is very easy to find raw facts, from non-political organisations, and then make up your mind. For this particular debate, look for employment stats in various UK industries from 1964 onwards, see when the jobs were actually lost. For the "milk snatcher" nickname you need to start looking around 1968. Etc...

In fact, this is good advice for life. Find out, make your own mind up, don't be a sheep.

I agree with you that is why all the stuff I posted is purely about stuff Thatcher did during her time if it wasn't for the Falklands war she would of been out on her ear hole long before she eventually left office.

Just out of intrest and feel free to tell me to fuc# off and mind my own but what were you and your family working, middle or upper class during her reign as pm.
 

scarey

Member
Mother (French) was a teacher, dad was a project manager in construction. Dad started off a labour voter, has never, and will never vote for them again after the '70s. Dad's father was a career army man (Sergeant). Got an MBE for going on the beaches to recover tanks on D-Day +1. I'm very proud of him for that.
I lean more towards the right than the left, although I'm anti-greed and against looking after No.1 and sod the rest. I'm also rabidly against the work-shy and feckless, but believe in helping those that deserve help. I was never handed anything on a plate, everything I achieved I worked hard for. And I worked hard. Left uni at 22, spent the next 15-20 years working 70-80 hour weeks, 7 days a week. I'm 43 and pretty much retired, bar some volunteer work, and some occasional consultancy work. Damn, when I was 16 and wanted a bike I even had to go and get a part-time job and earn it myself! Pesky parents!!

You?
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
Mother (French) was a teacher, dad was a project manager in construction. Dad started off a labour voter, has never, and will never vote for them again after the '70s. Dad's father was a career army man (Sergeant). Got an MBE for going on the beaches to recover tanks on D-Day +1. I'm very proud of him for that.
I lean more towards the right than the left, although I'm anti-greed and against looking after No.1 and sod the rest. I'm also rabidly against the work-shy and feckless, but believe in helping those that deserve help. I was never handed anything on a plate, everything I achieved I worked hard for. And I worked hard. Left uni at 22, spent the next 15-20 years working 70-80 hour weeks, 7 days a week. I'm 43 and pretty much retired, bar some volunteer work, and some occasional consultancy work. Damn, when I was 16 and wanted a bike I even had to go and get a part-time job and earn it myself! Pesky parents!!

You?

I was brought up very much working class my Dad was a car mechanic my Mum worked in a nursing home. When I was growing up we didn't have pot to piss in. I have been working my whole life and like you everything I have got is down to my own hard work if I wanted something and couldn't afford it then I went without. I used to get everything handed down to me from clothes, books, my first computer good old Atari. I can remember asking for some roller skates for a birthday present I got some hand me downs from my 15 year old cousin I must of only been around 8 or 9 at the time and they were miles to big for me we ended up shoving a load of plopser paper in them to get them to fit but they never did. Where I will hold my hands up and say I was lucky was when I turned 16 I never met either of my grandparents they died before I was born but they set up a savers account for me but I wasn't allowed to touch till I was 16. I more than made up for lost time I will never forget the first time I could afford a real stone island jumper or going on a two week bender to Ibiza or getting my first car or sharing my first flat with my mate. Things weren't great for me growing up but I like to think that I done alright though I live in a nice part of the country in a brand spanking new town house I drive a nice car have a well paid job can pretty much afford to do all the things I want to do in life.

I know you like your football and I'm sure you are aware of the rise of the casual scene during this time it seemed football was the only thing along with music Mrs Thatcher couldn't seem to stop the working class man from enjoying but my god did she try and stop it though. Remember the 1990 World Cup she tried stoping England fans from going across and supporting the team.http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...ed-pulling-out-of-world-cup-1990-8134154.html
 

scarey

Member
I didn't know that about the football, although it is normal for the law abiding masses to suffer because of the actions of the mindless few. Car insured, taxed, registered legally the scameras will love you. Don't bother with any of that they can't touch you!

My first radio was a hand me down from my mum when she was a kid. It caught fire after two days!! I also had clothes from my brother. I think a lot of this comes from the war, rationing and not wasting anything. Waste these days is appalling.

Sounds to me like you're doing well for yourself as well. Ironic thing is you're almost a poster boy for Thatcher!!
 

Brizzle Kicks

Welcome To The Underground
I didn't know that about the football, although it is normal for the law abiding masses to suffer because of the actions of the mindless few. Car insured, taxed, registered legally the scameras will love you. Don't bother with any of that they can't touch you!

My first radio was a hand me down from my mum when she was a kid. It caught fire after two days!! I also had clothes from my brother. I think a lot of this comes from the war, rationing and not wasting anything. Waste these days is appalling.

Sounds to me like you're doing well for yourself as well. Ironic thing is you're almost a poster boy for Thatcher!!

Yeah I've done alright but if I'm a poster boy for Maggie it was more luck than judgement on her part.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Morissey sums up my perceptions of her. Whatever good she did for the UK seems to be heavily outweighed by the bad.
 
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