Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Ok. Right. And the Nords inhabited the land after the Dwemer disappeared. Skyrim does not have a sign on it saying it's for the Nords only. Just like America is a land of immigrants just like Nords came from Atmora. The point is the Reachmen made it their home, even if they had to shed a little blood for it. There's a difference between an occupation and permanent settlement.​

I didn't say Skyrim is Nords only, I was correcting the current debate of Nords stealing the Reach from the Forsworn.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

However, you are wrong about the second part. Ulfric was not acting on behalf of the Empire he was acting on behalf of the Jarl's family. Ulfric was thrown in prison because the Jarl wanted to hand the city back to the Empire and Ulfric would not work with the Empire by letting them have the city. The Stormcloaks did exist at the time as Ulfric's personal militia. They may have picked up the name Stormcloak a little later on but it doesn't matter, both serve Ulfric's purpose.​

He was acting on behalf of the Empire, Jarls are part of the Empire. The Stormcloaks weren't around until after the Markarth Incident. Ulfric was arrested because of the White-Gold Concordat, which the Empire breached by allowing Talos worship.

The Empire would not have allowed the Reach, the source of Skyrim's wealth to be controlled by unaffiliated hands. Especially not after a destructive war which meant they needed every resource they could get their hands on in rebuilding.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Whose switching back and forth? The only one that's doing that as far as I can see is you, at least in this post. Not sure why but I suppose you have your reasons.​

Back and forth as in using Ulfric of twenty five years ago, to Ulfric of 4E 201. His motives weren't the same.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

About Ulfric... he hasn't really changed. Not according to Legate Rikke and those Nords close to him. While he hasn't been killing Imperials the entire time, the hate has been building and he's been speaking out against the Empire. Ulfric is goal-minded.​

According to Legate Rikke, Ulfric has indeed changed. She mentions he wasn't always like this.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

While I realize that you and yours are very lore minded and base your methods after Dagmar, I'm not that kind of person. I've debated with her before so this is all too familiar. Much of TES Lore and History, Events, is open to interpretation and investigation. The only absolute we have in TES is the Timeline, assuming that's correct which I think it is. The rest is open to interpretation and investigation.​

Investigation surrounding the events of Markarth, tells us the Empire was involved too.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

And I promise that you and I and even other Imperials may not necessarily draw the same conclusion(s). However, can we at least all agree the Empire should get a second chance, a fighting chance, to right the wrongs and fix itself?​

I still believe the Empire is the best chance, I'm not going against that. I'm just admitting we were involved in the events of Markarth.

The Empire works in what is best for the Empire.

Ok, the thing is though like with Ulfric and the Jarl being with the Empire, that's subjective. I don't really have time nor see any value in mulling over Ulfric's character dev although I can imagine him changing a great deal after the Thalmor messing with his head.

The Jarl though was not acting under the Empire, he was on his own. The Thalmor gave him an ultimatum when they found out what was going on so he wanted to hand the city back over to the Empire. Empire had no part of that deal other than wanting to accept the city back. That deal was not made by the Empire. What happened was the Jarl heard the Empire was making overtures to accept the Reachmen's claim to Markarth and so the Jarl needed a fixer and fast, which is where Ulfric came in. Then the Jarl had to decide between war with the Thalmor and rejoining the Empire, which I'm sure the Empire was all to happy to accept.

However, though we have our differences of opinion, I can def agree that the Empire is the best thing for the world of man and should be given a second chance.


Good Day.

 

[Daryl Dixon]

There's nothing valid on the topic any of you can say that hasn't been said here already. Also, it is likely hardly any of you still play Skyrim.

Just saying XD

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Also, it is likely hardly any of you still play Skyrim.

I would be if my computer didn't get this bug (thanks Windumb 7, by the way!) which makes it crash after exactly 1 hour. A single hour isn't nearly enough for a Skyrim session for me, and I'd be pissed off if I didn't quicksave something and would have to do it again later on.

Meanwhile, I read myself through every single goddamn character to memorize their dialogue and after all TESO content has been added I'll continue to browse through the Imperial Library again as well. Love TES or hate it, but this fantasy world is probably the best and biggest one there is. And I friggin' love it.

 

[Raijin]

There's nothing valid on the topic any of you can say that hasn't been said here already. Also, it is likely hardly any of you still play Skyrim.

Just saying XD

I still play Skyrim. In fact my Dunmer just just finished the Civil war by siding with the Imperials. I'm about to start Dawnguard.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ok, the thing is though like with Ulfric and the Jarl being with the Empire, that's subjective. I don't really have time nor see any value in mulling over Ulfric's character dev although I can imagine him changing a great deal after the Thalmor messing with his head.

How is it subjective? You can't just reject someone from the Empire when it upsets your argument. The Empire isn't a foreign entity, it is Skyrim and other provinces. Jarls, just like Counts are all part of the political system that makes up the vast Empire.

You can't accept the good parts then deny the bad.

The Jarl though was not acting under the Empire, he was on his own.

So he was independent? Had nothing to do with the Empire. Then why did the Legions show up in the Reach so quickly after it was taken back?

The Thalmor gave him an ultimatum when they found out what was going on so he wanted to hand the city back over to the Empire.

That doesn't make sense, since the Empire was already in control when the Thalmor arrived. They demanded the Empire to hand over Ulfric, or it was back to war. How would they make an ultimatum of going back to war with a single Hold?

If the Jarl was on his own as you claim, had nothing to do with the Empire. Then the Thalmor would not have been there, the Reach was apparently independent since the Empire had nothing to do with it.

Empire had no part of that deal other than wanting to accept the city back. That deal was not made by the Empire.

People who were there disagree.

"Forsworn had taken over Markarth, and Ulfric and his men drove them out. Empire promised they'd be free to worship Talos afterwords. Pity no one told the Elves. Whole group of those Thalmor came and they demanded Ulfric's arrest." - Cedran

What happened was the Jarl heard the Empire was making overtures to accept the Reachmen's claim to Markarth and so the Jarl needed a fixer and fast, which is where Ulfric came in.

The Empire was making no such attempt to accept Reachman claim over the Reach and it's holdings. So that is just completely false.

Then the Jarl had to decide between war with the Thalmor and rejoining the Empire, which I'm sure the Empire was all to happy to accept.

What?

If they weren't part of the Empire, how could the Thalmor demand Ulfric's arrest? The White-Gold Concordat wouldn't apply.

How could the Thalmor go to war with Markarth? The Treaty doesn't allow Aldmeri armies to pass through Cyrodiil, into Skyrim, marching across Falkreath Hold, into the Reach and besiege Markarth.

Why would Igmund mention they were hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out? That is showing they were bound by the White-Gold Concordat.

Your summary of events doesn't add up.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I have apologized for my mistake although Ive come to the conclusion that he was an Imperial Veteran in the Great War as the armor seems to be his(since you can steal it). However it is standard issue Imperial Armor and not Imperial Officer Armor which would support the claim of him being a veteran. Look, It being there is suspicious, that's all. It doesn't prove anything but its suspicious. You can even admit that.

OR, you know, the armor and flag have no identity other than being Imperial design and thus are simply armor and a flag.

But that's not the case. They're Imperial Army Standard Armor

 

[Jeremius]

I have apologized for my mistake although Ive come to the conclusion that he was an Imperial Veteran in the Great War as the armor seems to be his(since you can steal it). However it is standard issue Imperial Armor and not Imperial Officer Armor which would support the claim of him being a veteran. Look, It being there is suspicious, that's all. It doesn't prove anything but its suspicious. You can even admit that.

OR, you know, the armor and flag have no identity other than being Imperial design and thus are simply armor and a flag.

But that's not the case. They're Imperial Army Standard Armor

Which is mass produced and could mean anything, but not necessarily what you think it is.

 

[LegateFasendil]

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Ok, the thing is though like with Ulfric and the Jarl being with the Empire, that's subjective. I don't really have time nor see any value in mulling over Ulfric's character dev although I can imagine him changing a great deal after the Thalmor messing with his head.​

How is it subjective? You can't just reject someone from the Empire when it upsets your argument. The Empire isn't a foreign entity, it is Skyrim and other provinces. Jarls, just like Counts are all part of the political system that makes up the vast Empire.

You can't accept the good parts then deny the bad.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

The Jarl though was not acting under the Empire, he was on his own.​

So he was independent? Had nothing to do with the Empire. Then why did the Legions show up in the Reach so quickly after it was taken back?

LegateFasendil said: ↑

The Thalmor gave him an ultimatum when they found out what was going on so he wanted to hand the city back over to the Empire.​

That doesn't make sense, since the Empire was already in control when the Thalmor arrived. They demanded the Empire to hand over Ulfric, or it was back to war. How would they make an ultimatum of going back to war with a single Hold?

If the Jarl was on his own as you claim, had nothing to do with the Empire. Then the Thalmor would not have been there, the Reach was apparently independent since the Empire had nothing to do with it.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Empire had no part of that deal other than wanting to accept the city back. That deal was not made by the Empire.​

People who were there disagree.

"Forsworn had taken over Markarth, and Ulfric and his men drove them out. Empire promised they'd be free to worship Talos afterwords. Pity no one told the Elves. Whole group of those Thalmor came and they demanded Ulfric's arrest." - Cedran

LegateFasendil said: ↑

What happened was the Jarl heard the Empire was making overtures to accept the Reachmen's claim to Markarth and so the Jarl needed a fixer and fast, which is where Ulfric came in.​

The Empire was making no such attempt to accept Reachman claim over the Reach and it's holdings. So that is just completely false.

LegateFasendil said: ↑

Then the Jarl had to decide between war with the Thalmor and rejoining the Empire, which I'm sure the Empire was all to happy to accept.​

What?

If they weren't part of the Empire, how could the Thalmor demand Ulfric's arrest? The White-Gold Concordat wouldn't apply.

How could the Thalmor go to war with Markarth? The Treaty doesn't allow Aldmeri armies to pass through Cyrodiil, into Skyrim, marching across Falkreath Hold, into the Reach and besiege Markarth.

Why would Igmund mention they were hoping the Thalmor wouldn't find out? That is showing they were bound by the White-Gold Concordat.

Your summary of events doesn't add up.

What do you mean I can't add? Look ok math was never my strong point. Yet somehow I blew that computational logic class out of the water. Teacher said I was a better philosopher anyways. Whatever in the hell that is. Hehehe


Now.

I have read your post. You are making the mistake of throwing out what I like to call "essential links" within these events. Dagmar was notorious for doing the very same thing. And I caught her everytime.

I could spend all night explaining this to you. But I fail to understand how someone has knowledgeable as yourself can just dumb down your conclusions.

If this is a test, for you I will never pass. If this is not a test and this is what you truly believe, then by all means, believe it. I am not the truth cop, I am the truth merchant. And I have nothing to gain or lose by accommodating you, again and not to be disrespectful.

It's really as simple as that. This response from you, is black and white but you are missing the grey in it. Also, you have said before that this petty Civil War is about... ahh... Religion vs Racism. I disagree. It is about THE LAW.

THE LAW IS SACRED. It is more about the law than anything else.

Corvina showed me that, albeit not intentionally. Still, I like her posts. She has a good head on her shoulders.

Anyways, about me being wrong... you guys who really care can read this and decide for yourself.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth​

As I have argued time and again and not just on here... data by itself is not meaningless but misleading. You have to massage, mine, and mint the data before it's worth anything.

That was Dagmar's flaw, she was strong, powerful, persistent, but missed the minor details which indicates connections between things. And as one of her followers, you have this trait as well.

So here we are. My only reason for returning was to help some of the other mmmm less experienced Imperials get back on their feet.

I must say, these Stormcloaks are different from the usual petty, disgusting, "cause they cut my head off" "boo hoo hoo for me" variety that usually stalks these kinds of forums. These actually stand for something.

However, seeing how things have turned around and I think the score is nicely evened, in the best interests / wellbeing of the Empire, I'll retire my services to the Empire. I don't think us going head to head is going to accomplish anything. Although I had hoped you would understand, maybe I could somehow rescue the Empire on here from the mistakes of the past.

But what choice do I have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

OR, you know, the armor and flag have no identity other than being Imperial design and thus are simply armor and a flag.

But that's not the case. They're Imperial Army Standard Armor

Which is mass produced and could mean anything, but not necessarily what you think it is.

But they were made for the purpose of being used in the Imperial Army. The Flag is an Imperial Military Flag

 

[DrunkenMage]

What do you mean I can't add? Look ok math was never my strong point. Yet somehow I blew that computational logic class out of the water. Teacher said I was a better philosopher anyways. Whatever in the hell that is. Hehehe


Now.

I have read your post. You are making the mistake of throwing out what I like to call "essential links" within these events. Dagmar was notorious for doing the very same thing. And I caught her everytime.

I could spend all night explaining this to you. But I fail to understand how someone has knowledgeable as yourself can just dumb down your conclusions.

If this is a test, for you I will never pass. If this is not a test and this is what you truly believe, then by all means, believe it. I am not the truth cop, I am the truth merchant. And I have nothing to gain or lose by accommodating you, again and not to be disrespectful.

It's really as simple as that. This response from you, is black and white but you are missing the grey in it. Also, you have said before that this petty Civil War is about... ahh... Religion vs Racism. I disagree. It is about THE LAW.

THE LAW IS SACRED. It is more about the law than anything else.

Corvina showed me that, albeit not intentionally. Still, I like her posts. She has a good head on her shoulders.

Anyways, about me being wrong... you guys who really care can read this and decide for yourself.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth​

As I have argued time and again and not just on here... data by itself is not meaningless but misleading. You have to massage, mine, and mint the data before it's worth anything.

That was Dagmar's flaw, she was strong, powerful, persistent, but missed the minor details which indicates connections between things. And as one of her followers, you have this trait as well.

So here we are. My only reason for returning was to help some of the other mmmm less experienced Imperials get back on their feet.

I must say, these Stormcloaks are different from the usual petty, disgusting, "cause they cut my head off" "boo hoo hoo for me" variety that usually stalks these kinds of forums. These actually stand for something.

However, seeing how things have turned around and I think the score is nicely evened, in the best interests / wellbeing of the Empire, I'll retire my services to the Empire. I don't think us going head to head is going to accomplish anything. Although I had hoped you would understand, maybe I could somehow rescue the Empire on here from the mistakes of the past.

But what choice do I have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

What? I just pointed out every flaw in what you said. What you were on about didn't even pass the slightest investigation.

I'm sorry, but you were talking nonsense.

As for the Bear of Markarth, notice whenever I use it in an argument, I don't use the entire thing.

Why? Because it does have an obvious political agenda, not so much Civil War related, but what seems to be more meant for the Thalmor. It is removing majority blame away from the Empire during an event that nearly caused the Great War to begin again.

The parts that do that, are destroyed by speaking to several people within Markarth.

I'm not sure you can say I'm "throwing out essential links" when you were making the mistakes. The whole reason I was quoting you was so you could learn, accept when wrong and move past it.

I said the debate at it's core was racial oppression and religious oppression. Do you mean to tell me the Stormcloaks here never once mention the Talos Ban and Thalmor Justiciars? Or that Imperials here never once mention the Dunmer and Argonian situation in Windhelm?

You also bring up Dagmar, saying I'm one of her followers? Is that a negative thing or something? What does that even have to do with anything I am saying to you.

What, because I proved you wrong my posts are invalid due to Dagmar having been in this thread?

 

[Jeremius]

But that's not the case. They're Imperial Army Standard Armor

Which is mass produced and could mean anything, but not necessarily what you think it is.

But they were made for the purpose of being used in the Imperial Army. The Flag is an Imperial Military Flag

They can be found anywhere, makes the idea of him being an imperial soldier/officer/spy nonsense.

 

[Vatonage]

Anyways, fare thee well bro-ham, fare thee well Mr Ivory and Jeremius, Mr Raijin, Corvina, Dixon, Mikulas and Vonage everybody.

I'm a phone company now?

Heh, now I'm logically RICH!

 

[Anouck]

Well.........






........This was weird........

 

[DrunkenMage]

Uh... Logic?

 

[XIIGenocide]

Figured i'd find DM on this thread hahahahaha, long time no see eh.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Which is mass produced and could mean anything, but not necessarily what you think it is.

But they were made for the purpose of being used in the Imperial Army. The Flag is an Imperial Military Flag

They can be found anywhere, makes the idea of him being an imperial soldier/officer/spy nonsense.

Its purposefully placed in his home. You don't find that in every house around every hold in Skyrim. Sure, you can maybe find it in a pirate cave or something for obvious reasons. Also a flag is removable so unless

 

[Bulldog]

There's nothing valid on the topic any of you can say that hasn't been said here already. Also, it is likely hardly any of you still play Skyrim.

Just saying XD

I still play. In fact I play at least an hour every day. Well until the wife starts whining she wants to play. We are actually looking into either upgrading our desktop to run skyrim with mods or just buying a new setup.

 

[Jeremius]

But they were made for the purpose of being used in the Imperial Army. The Flag is an Imperial Military Flag

They can be found anywhere, makes the idea of him being an imperial soldier/officer/spy nonsense.

Its purposefully placed in his home. You don't find that in every house around every hold in Skyrim. Sure, you can maybe find it in a pirate cave or something for obvious reasons. Also a flag is removable so unless

Still has no known meaning, and therefore could be junk he found there, or that spot could have been an imperial outpost. There is no evidence at all to suggest that that stuff belongs to him except your personal bias.

 

[Raijin]

I'm impressed that you Imperial supporters are still making up to excuses over the fact that a Dunmer, in Windhelm - Stormcloak headquarters has in his possession, in his tavern a piece of an Imperial Legion equipment (Military gear) and an Imperial flag dangling down on the second story.

By your logic if I get caught with marijuana inside of my pocket... I'll just tell the police officer that it isn't mine, and hope to not get arrested for drug possession.

to Cyrodill Imperial Legion/Empire lovers! Nobody is falling for your false logic here!

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They can be found anywhere, makes the idea of him being an imperial soldier/officer/spy nonsense.

Its purposefully placed in his home. You don't find that in every house around every hold in Skyrim. Sure, you can maybe find it in a pirate cave or something for obvious reasons. Also a flag is removable so unless

Still has no known meaning, and therefore could be junk he found there, or that spot could have been an imperial outpost. There is no evidence at all to suggest that that stuff belongs to him except your personal bias.

Um actually you can steal the Armor from him. Stealing something implies that it belongs to someone.