Why do the Thalmor want an Imperial victory?

I seriously doubt Tullius 'brought' her. You're making it sound like he knocked on her door and invited her. I doubt that happened. So, seems like the type to 'invite' herself. And as I've stated, neither Tulluis or Elenwen would even be there if it wasn't for Ulfric starting the Civil War.

And I thought we've already established that the Thalmor want the war to go on as long as possible? So, why would they want the Stormcloaks to flat out surrender?

And while Tulluis may also think the war is more important, he didn't act like a stubborn child while trying to get things underway. He sat down, awaiting to hear what the Dragonborn had to say. As always, it was Ulfric who started to undermine things.

The Stormcloaks didn't team up with the Imperial Legion during Season Unending. Neither side is lifting a finger to help you in your cause. As if the threat of the end of the world isn't enough motivation, you actually have to negotiate concessions from each side for a temporary ceasefire. That's pretty much the opposite of evidence that the Stormcloaks will team with anyone against a greater threat. It's evidence that they would rather engage in self-destructive delusional behavior unless someone goes to great efforts to convince them to do otherwise.

The Redguards didn't kick out the Empire. The Empire renounced Hammerfell and withdrew the support of its Imperial Legions (what little was left there) from Hammerfell because Hammerfell rejected the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

The Redguards didn't kick out the Thalmor when they invaded either. When the Thalmor invaded Hammerfell during the Great War and quickly occupied the southern coastline it was the Imperial Legions that held the line and halted the advance of the Dominion at Skaven

It was a contingent of hardened Imperial Legion veterans that General Decianus released as "invalids" (when he received marching orders to withdraw from Hammerfell and march for the Imperial City in what would become the Battle of the Red Ring) that drove the Thalmor back to southern Hammerfell.

Some players suffer from the notion that the Redguards literally drove the Thalmor out of Hammerfell and back into the sea but that's not how it happened. Because of the total annihilation of the Dominion's invading army at the Battle of the Red Ring, the Thalmor in Hammerfell were isolated and without outside support which allowed the Redguards to fight the Thalmor to a standstill in southern Hammerfell. The Redguard never actually physically drove the Thalmor out of southern Hammerfell. The Redguards and the Dominion negotiated the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai to allow for the peaceful withdrawal of Dominion forces from Hammerfell.

This is why comparing the Redguard's successful campaign to drive the Dominion out of Hammerfell to the likelihood of the Stormcloaks being able to defend against a full strength Dominion incursion is like comparing apples and oranges. The Redguards only had to fight a weakened Thalmor army with a strategic disadvantage by the time the Empire withdrew its support from Hammerfell.

In Skyrim, the Stormcloaks would be the ones weakened from losses suffered during the civil war and at a strategic disadvantage with no viable military allies (Hammerfell is still recovering and support from the Empire is unlikely given recent circumstances). They would have little to no chance of successfully defending against a full strength Thalmor invasion.

That being said, it's pure speculation that the Dominion has the resources to mount a full scale invasion. The Imperial Legions weren't the only ones to suffer massive losses during the Great War. The opaqueness of Dominion territory after the loss of all of the Empire's spies prior to the Great War was probably a contributing factor in Titus II's decision to make so many concessions to the Dominion. We simply don't have a clue if they're in any better shape than the Empire is to wage another war.

The meeting was between General Tullius, Ulfric stormcloak and Jarl Balgruuf the Greater. The greybeards did not invite Elenwen therefor she had no reason to be there. They didn't even invite that inexperienced jarl and wannabe queen called Elisif the Fair. Not sure why Tullius brought her to the meeting. I guess he wanted an audience, or perhaps theirs something going between both of them, and that this way his way of flaunting his muscles at her? Who knows. Ulfric had the right not to sit because the agreement did not included Elenwen so why should he sit when theirs an uninvited party?

Tullius did too “brought” her there as he said it himself “She's part of the Imperial delegation. You can't dictate who I bring to this council.”

This statement is a total failure in logic. The latter part doesn't follow from the former. Elenwen's reasons for being there are obvious. She may have no right to be there but she has every reason to be there.

Putting aside the juvenille colloquialisms, so what? They didn't explicitly invite Legate Rikke or Galmar either. Each side is allowed to include people in their delegation who they believe may be relevant to the negotiations. It's quite obvious to anyone who understands the relationship between Solitude and the Empire as to why General Tullius would include the Jarl of Solitude in his delegation.

There's no such thing as a "right not to sit" in a chair. There may be a reason he wont take a seat, but Ulfric's reasons are poor, and using up part of his leverage in the negotiations to simply get Elenwen to leave (it counts as a concession to the Stormcloaks if she does and the Imperials can gain an additional Hold as a result) is just remarkably bad diplomacy on his part.

People love to use this as a reason to side with the Stormcloaks but really? You are not only seen with the killer of the High King but you were attempting to cross the border. Of course they thought you were a Stormcloak and was a part of the assassination plot. Funny how you notice the captain's disregard but ignored Hadvar's concern. Also, the fact that Ulfric does nothing to exonerate your plea of not guilty is quite telling on his part.

The point is she wasn't invited therefor she had no right to be there in the first place. It was between Ulfric and Tullius... Not the Thalmor, which their not apart of the civil war.

But the Jarl of solitude had no business being there. What did she do to contribute to the delegations? To call Ulfric a murderer? Come on she did NOTHING therefor her being there was for Tullius audience and support only. Do you see Ulfric inviting one of his supported Jarls to this meeting? No. He could've invited someone like the Jarl of dawnstar Skald to the meeting to be his audience but he didn't.

No Ulfrics reasons are not poor this is coming from your imperial supporting tongue. Ulfric accepted a meeting WITH the empire aka Tullius to halt off the civil war until after Alduin is dealth with. Nowhere did the player (you) mention the Thalmor or Elenwen so why should Ulfric want to start the meeting with an unauthorized party?

We use it because it's the truth. The imperial legion are nothing more but savages. Without being on neither side Tullius often tells the player "There something I can do for you? Perhaps direct you to the nearest prison..." when speaking to the man. Am I suppose to support this General by siding with him when he almost tried to kill me, and now threatens me with prison just for SPEAKING with that asshole?
They thought I was a stormcloak eh? I certainly didn't have the gear, and why wasn't my name on the list? Helgan had a prison so why not put me in there and start up an investigation like I deserve instead of righting it off like what that snobby captain bitch did, and put me in line to be executed?

As far as Ulfric doing nothing to exonerate me how could he when he had the gag over his mouth? Did you notice that while Tullius was speaking with him in Helgan that he couldn't speak and was muttering instead? How could he plea for my innocence when he couldn't even say a single word? Even if he could do you seriously think for a moment that they would listen to him? Hardly.

Raijin, as I've stated before I seriously doubt if the roles were reversed, that the Stormcloaks would have investigated had you been captured among Imperial soldiers. It's just how war works. Loose ends and all that.

Exactly. You can't apply modern day ideas of law and a fair trial to this situation. It just doesn't work.

You're full of contradictions. That was my observation not yours. You said she had no reason to be there. I was the one that pointed out that she might not have a right to be there but has obvious reasons to be there. Thanks for conceding the point. You also admitted she was part of General Tullius's delegation which means she's there by his right so it's not even a relevant observation to your argument notwithstanding that it's not even an original argument on your part.

Since you didn't get the hint I'll try to explain it in terms even you should be able to understand. Solitude is not just any city, Haafingar is not just any Hold and the Jarl of Solitude and Haafingar is not just any Jarl. All are valued with special regard by the Empire. Solitude is the capital of Skyrim and the seat of the High King of Skyrim for at least 2 generations. It's also the headquarters of the Imperial Legion, the largest port city in Skyrim, one of the most prominent port cities in Tamriel, and has historically been one of the most powerful and influential cities in Skyrim even when it wasn't the seat of the High King. As such the city, the Hold and the Jarl are of higher strategic and political value to the Empire than any other.

Whether you like it or not, Elisif isn't just a Jarl supporting the Imperial Legion. She is the defacto political leader of the Nords who support the Empire not only because she is the Jarl of Solitude and Haafingar, but also because she is the former Queen of Skyrim and the widow of the last legitimate High King of Skyrim. Ulfric doesn't have any of the other Jarls from the Stormcloak Holds with him because there is no separate Stormcloak military leader and Stormcloak political leader. He serves in both capacities. Your opinions of what she does or doesn't do at the peace negotiations are irrelevant. She is the obvious political counterpart to Ulfric which is why she's there.

Rhetoric fail. I don't support the Empire. In almost every playthrough I have chosen to stay out of the civil war. I have played through the Civil War once on each side simply to cover the content but from an objective point of view found both sides flawed, uninspiring and undeserving of the loyalty of any of my characters unless I specifically created a background for my characters that makes them prone to being biased towards one side or the other. I also stated above why Elenwen is there by General Tullius's right not hers.

Ulfric's reasons for wanting Elenwen to leave are objectively poor regardless of whether you're too obtuse to understand what is going on. If you dismiss Elenwen at Ulfric's insistence, in addition to trading Markarth for Riften the Empire can take Dawnstar and the Pale during the negotiations because granting Ulfric's wish counts as a concession by the Empire during negotiations. That not only puts 6 Holds in the hands of the Empire versus 3 Holds in the Hands of the Stormcloaks but it puts the new Stormcloak city and Hold of Markarth and the Reach in isolation and surrounded by Holds that support the Imperial Legion. The Stormcloaks also lose their only port city (Dawnstar) as a result. It takes a special kind of idiot to negotiate those kind of terms just so he can shoo away a Thalmor emissary that is only there to observe the negotiations and whose going to find out everything that happened at the negotiations from Tullius later anyway. So to review:

I have to reply on this, for just one small disagreement. Ulfric was gagged, due to his dragon shouts, and thus could not speak up if he wanted to on your behalf. Besides no one said you were a stormcloak, you were just a prisoner, the horse theif wasn't a stormcloak either, and he was there.

My religious beliefs are of no consequence to this debate simply because we are dealing with a different world here. The existence of gods here is an undeniable fact and let's leave it at that.

Anyone who wanted to worship Talos was already worshiping Talos before Ulfric started the war. The Empire wasn't really checking and the Thalmor weren't there in Skyrim. So, it can be argued that by starting this war, Ulfric effectively made Talos worshipers prone to being prosecuted. That may not have been his intention but it is a fact. The bigger picture is that Ulfric started the civil for for his own reasons which most likely had nothing to do with Talos.

Yeah, alot of people don't understand that when you have negotiations those that are invited are allowed to bring a *delegation* with them. Thus this is why Ulfric has his second in command with him as well. ALso Tullus says he is negotiating on behalf of the Yarl/Queen, if I remember right, and thus she is there first in that role, and second as part of his delegation.

As to who is better towards the character, neither are in anyway good to the character. Tullus knows you are an escapted prisoner, so yes he would offer to direct you to jail. What law enforcement officer wouldn't? When you go to Ulfric to join the stormcloaks his second in command sends you on what he thinks is a suicide mission.

The questions taken up however are whether the Thalmor want the Imperials or the Stormcloaks to win and the answer we have all come to us utlimately they want neither to win and as long a protracted war as they possibly can. If there is a victor they will gain more advantage by the imperials winning as insurgents from the Stormcloak rebellion will wtill cause a large troop population to have to stay in Skyrim and will cause continued casualties to the populace of Skyrim and the Empire. Though if it keeps on going the Empire will probably leave Skyrim just like they did Hammerfell if the Nords keep going against the treatie and publicly worship Talos.

I agree with this but he wasn't gagged when they first arrested us but then I'd be fanwanking.

Ah, but then you are assuming you were arrested together.

They were arrested together weren't they? That's why you are told you walked into the Imperial ambush just like the rest of the Stormcloaks, that is also why they arrested you. Because they though you were a Stormcloak.

I believe they say "an imperial ambush" which doesn't mean you were in the same ambush there can be more than one.

I don't see how it's relevant either way. I wouldn't begrudge Ulfric for not speaking out for you in the middle of an ambush and he would have been gagged rather quickly after surrendering.

agreed Dagmar.

somewhere in this thread is a post about how Tullius wanted the Dovahkiin dead. NEWSFLASH: most likely Tullius did not even see you, it was that one Captain that did, only because i bet she was paranoid that you were coming to Skyrim to aid the rebellion and did not want that to happen. i bet She was dead no matter what. General T was busy with Ulfric, and did not notice you, otherwise i doubt he would let an imperial die just for crossing the border.