Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

Well yes obviously.

I don't see how this was relevant to anything at all, but calling someone a towelhead doesn't automatically give someone a vote. Unless Mitt Romney explained why he thought Obama was a towelhead he wouldn't get that vote. Even if they are rednecks. Mitt Romney is going for the religious card anyways, kinda like Ulfric, so him saying that wouldn't really gain him much.

The thalmor are the reason the stormcloaks exist in the big picture and the empire has it's hands tied. They can't do anything else than act nice to the dominion

If the empire kept fighting there wouldn't be a skyrim to fight over, the high king and Jarls that opposed them would have been killed along with the emperor, blades, and yes your beloved Ulfric. Do you even notice the Empire hates the Dominion and that eventually they will rally their allies and take back Tamriel? This is impossible if Tamriel is divided by racists like Ulfric. Ulfric want's nothing more than to be high king in the long run. And as for your nords never back down thing, Ulfric surrendered without a fight when he was captured. For all his talk of Death for honour he is a true coward.

Opinion and speculation aren't relevant to the story. If it didn't happen then it didn't happen. That's all there is to it. When people here start voicing their opinions and start speculating during a debate I honestly tend to skip through it because it means little to nothing. I may not be a master of the debater but I do know the ropes. To win a debate you must provide as much prove and facts as you can possibly get on a particular subject. By throwing opinions and speculations into the pile means that you're low on ammunition, and desperate enough to continue with the debate.

And for the loving Mara enough with this Hadvar sympathetic stuffs already. Yes he was very sympathetic regarding to your name not being on the list, but Hadvar is just a low ranked solider with little authority over his head. What counts is the behavior of the upper ranked officials. The captain didn't give to sh**s about it and just shrugged it off like if your life means nothing to her. The captain was very careless and this is what the empire has to offer to the people in Skyrim? I can't help but to side with the Stormcloaks by driving the Imperials out of skyrim. Hadvar seems like a very nice and caring guy... too bad he picked the wrong side. I actually do respect him a lot thought.

Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on the idea that speculation and opinion are irrelevant to the game and its story. There is plenty that we don't know and won't know, most likely. It's not at all out of bounds to exchange ideas about what we do see and extrapolate from there. People debate based on what happens in the game - a good debate is founded upon facts first and foremost, and reasonable indications of unseen or alternative scenarios arise from there. Trust me, I'm familiar with the methodology of debating as well.

You say not to debate using any opinions/speculation/educated guesses at all, yet you have continued to assume things about people's motivations, not least of all those of the Legionnaires involved. I have indicated a factual detail of the opening of the game that you're only seeming to read one way. I see a dismissal of Hadvar's sympathy out of hand, basically saying that he's the exception, not the rule, as far as the Empire/Legion's character goes. That shows to me a keenness to operate on opinions when it suits one's case. The fact is that an officer - yes, higher ranked than Hadvar - was careless and was the one responsible for the player character almost dying. You were not on the Legion's list, meaning very simply that the Legion was not out to get you. You were rounded up among enemy soldiers and though there was hesitance to go through with your attempted execution, Tullius was preoccupied and thus not immediately present to call it off. Is that highly regrettable? Of course, but it's not unlikely or unbelievable. If anything, again, we should cast our blame upon an officer who I believe is there to serve a role in game mechanics.

So indeed, please do not suggest that I have given no facts and all I do is speculate because I'm low on proverbial ammunition, as you put it. All in all and by your standards, if we blame the entire Legion/Empire for one captain's careless actions, then it's entirely fine to paint the Stormcloaks by the same broad brush as any one of their particularly bad apples.

Troopers like Hadvar make up the empire. How would armies be with officers and no soldiers hmm? Their opinions and views, personality etc... are more important in my view.

The captain is clearly trying to ensure no Stormcloaks are spared but I don't agree with her thinking 2 people in rags are part of a group of fully dressed soldiers. But back to the point, Hadvar's opinion is just as important as the officers.

BOOOM, no cumin back from that

What? I just stated that soldiers make up an army thus their opinions matter. What are you talking about?

OK, take EVERY soldier out of the legion, only leave the officers, legates and generals. Then see how much of an army it is. That's all I meant.
Also I said in my opinion.

no its not lol..

not sure I follow. What's not what?

Thats not at all what you meant when u said take all the soldiers away from the army and leave the commanding officer...

The second half of that post was about the captains intentions (what I see them as) I said I dis-agreed. The first was about my post you quoted

My advice is to join the Stormcloaks. I haven't tried the Imperial missions yet, but I have played the entire Stormcloak campaine and that was the best gameplay Skyrim offered me. I also suggest joining the Companions, in Whiterun.

u do no the missions are the EXACT same just ur a different side, its soooo sh*t

They should have maid some of the the stormcloak quests against Thalmor at the least. As for the Empire, That questline should have involved Tullias and Rikke more.

After the crown it's just fort after fort

i no its

pathetic, i was sooo disapointed. I thought they were whole different quest lines. I just hope to god its not the same sort of thing with the dawn guard and the vampires.

and you cannot say that one captain makes up the mentality of the legion either, works both ways. we do not know what another officer would have done in her position, maybe they would have asked us what we were doing in Skyrim in the first place...

also without the soldiers, the legion would not exist so...

Let me put it this way. Remember the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq where USA soldiers force the Iraqi prisoners to get naked, and put leashes on them, and then decided to humiliate them by taking photos? This was probably one of the worst human rights violation that the USA military committed in the 20th century. The treachery behind all of this was in fact that military police personnel of the United States Army along with an additional US governmental agencies was behind all of this.When the photos occurred it made us look bad in public. It made us look like the terrorists who invaded Iraq to abuse the POWs. I'm certain that many regular citizens joined in the ranks of Al Qaeda to seek out revenge. Lets switch this over to Skyrim. At the beginning of the story reveals nothing to your past. As you were heading for Helgan if the imperials lead you to the prison where they then interrogated you then I would have a whole different POV regarding to the legion, and to the empire, But the fact to the matter is that the captain careless shrugged it off and allowed an innocent player to be executed. It categorized the legion as an antagonist class in my eyes. I have more sympathetic to Ulfric causes to drive the imperials out of Skyrim.

i was saying that one officer does not mentality of the legion make. maybe the soldiers' opoinion doesn't matter, but do not say the legion mentality would be the same because such things like the beginning is different per officer.

also, general T does not even notice you, his focus is on Ulfric the whole time. he even lets you join the legion instead of saying "Let's execute you now, since you could be lying to me and be a Stormcloak spy". Officer mentality>soldier mentality, general's mentality>officer's mentality