Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Ivory]

This is something I'm curious to see talked about. Who sees this man, this icon, as a Hero and who sees him as a Murderer of thousands? We all know he brought the 500 companions to Skyrim after the Night of Tears to take revenge of the attack on Saarthal, but at what point do you think would this have been the end of a War and the beginning of a Holocaust? Despite the unknown power of the Eye of Magnus, was it a righteous thing to slaughter a race to the point of near extinction? Not to mention the Dwemer taking advantage of this situation and aiding in the slavery and destruction of the Elven cousins and effectively making a proud race of beings cease to exist?



That said, this is not a hate Nords or Elven debate, more a curious look about Atmorans and Elven cultures. The Imperials and Stormcloak thread inspired me to bring this up, since the Nords claim Skyrim as their land when the Atmorans took reign, what about Elves and their place before their possible eradication by these Atmorans?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Both. He is a hero to some and a murderous savage to others.

 

[Two Bears]

Ysgramor and the Stories of the Return are the best written lore in Skyrim. It was too bad that more was not made of it. Ysgramor is like the Nord Columbus. The latter came to the New World in the spirit of discovery and enterprise, and certainly did a lot of good. However, in the process he did a lot of really nasty things too. That was Ysgramor, and that is what made him such a believable figure.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I personally see him as someone who should be respected as a conqueror, a warrior, and deserves the respect someone would afford a worthy opponent. I frown upon his accomplishments, and thus say he should not be idoled.

Edit: to be more specific I frown upon him slaughtering the elves as I do for some key American settlers for their actions.

 

[Ivory]

Ysgramor isn't worshipped (To my knowledge). You may be thinking of Tiber Septim.

 

[Ivory]

Ysgramor and the Stories of the Return are the best written lore in Skyrim. It was too bad that more was not made of it. Ysgramor is like the Nord Columbus. The latter came to the New World in the spirit of discovery and enterprise, and certainly did a lot of good. However, in the process he did a lot of really nasty things too. That was Ysgramor, and that is what made him such a believable figure.

Thus making him a fascinating character to talk about here. He caused a lot of Good and prosperity while crippling and aiding in the destruction of another.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Ysgramor isn't worshipped (To my knowledge). You may be thinking of Tiber Septim.

Yeah, wrong guy. in my defense I haven't played skyrim in months.

 

[Gearuvagen]

I'd say murderous savage more than hero (though he is both). He drove the Falmer underground forcing them to take the Dwemer's deal and become what they are today. Whether they drew first blood at Saarthal or not genocide is never the answer.

 

[Ivory]

What further interests me is how even the Gods themselves (Mara, Sai) were involved in this. Apparently reading up on it seems to suggest Sai (God of luck) is to blame for the Falmer's destruction and tried to turn it around by aiding the Falmer against the Dwemer in The War of Crag.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well the Elves were there first since time immemorial, there are several suggestions as to why the Falmer attacked the Nordic city. They felt threatened by the humans arriving and establishing a large city, so they sought to drive the Humans from their homeland. Another theory is the discovery of the eye of magnus under the Saarthal and the Nords tried to hide it, the Snow Elves found out about it and wanted it for themselves.

 

[Ivory]

Which of course begs the question, was the genocide of the Snow elves worth a power the Nords locked away? Or if the other, was it justified as defense? Truly at some point once the Snow elves lost their prince, their will to keep fighting dwindled and they were outright slaughtered by human kind.

 

[Gearuvagen]

Well Ancano claimed to "Have the power to unmake the world" so powerwise yeah it was "Worth It" However whether they were trying to Keep the power for themselves or protect the world from it use is up for debate. I personally think it was the first one.
What I really want to know is, Is Gelebor right? Is the hope for the "Betrayed" or should we just finish what Ysgramor started?

 

[ShadowHunter]

Murderous Savage. He started this genocide after returning from Atmora. The Snow Elves were there first. They simply felt threatened by the large number of humans and wanted their homeland back. The Nords wanted the Eye of Magnus and the Snow Elves found out about it, which is why they attacked Saarthal.

Ysgramor is a piece of plops IMO

 

[Epic Keith]

Ysgramor indirectly caused the extinction of Snow Elves.....so I hate him for that reason

 

[Gearuvagen]

Ysgramor indirectly caused the extinction of Snow Elves.....so I hate him for that reason

They're still around they've just lost sight of who they are.

(bad puns)

 

[Epic Keith]

They're still around they've just lost sight of who they are.

(bad puns)

I guess we need to make them LOOK in the right direction

(This pun was worse)

 

[ShadowHunter]

Ysgramor indirectly caused the extinction of Snow Elves.....so I hate him for that reason

Same. Snow Elves are flippin' awesome!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well I like Ysgramor, without him establishing the Kingdom of Skyrim, the Imperials wouldn't have been able to become free from the Ayleids. The forces of Skyrim aided the Imperials against the elves, with much help from Pelinal Whitestrake who arrived from Atmora as part of Ysgramor's 500 Companions.

 

[Lady Redpool the Unlifer]

My vote goes to both. 1.) He's a hero, he led his people to find a new home, succeeded and when attacked he led them in defense, counterattack and war. The man by all accounts was an honorable, and proud man and a worthy warrior 2.) He's a murderous savage, as all men are in war. Was it genocide? Yes Does that matter? No. War is vicious, and cruel. When war was forced upon him, he embraced it, and well, let's face it, if you're gonna do something then you might as well do it right. By right I mean completely and wholeheartedly. They attacked him so he took their home and killed any who he found. It's called total war, and it's honestly the only right way to win a war, because your enemy isn't going to recover and try again.

To sum it up: He's a Nord who fought for his people and killed elves, he's both.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

The Elves seem to have always had a fear or even envy of the race of man. From what I have deduced from reading books in game, examples of my theory seem to jump out at me. The Elves fear ultimately brought about their destruction at the hands of Ysgramor. They started a series of events that spiralled out of control, but such is war. I consider Ysgramor a hero myself, that's just what side of the fence I sit on. Murderess savage, perhaps he is and perhaps he isn't. Empires have always been and will always be forged in somebodies blood. Such is human nature.