Would you welcome an Elven Empire(Not Thalmor)?

[Lewsean]

I remember touching on such a subject with someone in the Imperials vs Stormcloak debate about the benefits of a new Elven Era, it is well known that there society is leaps and bounds ahead of men, who let's face it are a race of war mongerers.

"I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims."
―Queen Ayrenn

 

[Seanu Reaves]

It really doesn't matter the race in power it is the culture. I look at Councillor Otaco (Spelling sorry on phone) I will add more when I get on a computer.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I'll stick with the Dominion. They're my kind of folks.

 

[Lewsean]

I'll stick with the Dominion. They're my kind of folks.

But the Dominion want everything to end No more TES games

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I'll stick with the Dominion. They're my kind of folks.

But the Dominion want everything to end No more TES games

Well. They are an integral part of the TES Universe. Similar to Dragon Age or Dragon's Dogma, I think it would be great to play on their side as they try to take over from the Argonians, Bosmer or even the Dunmer (and possibly even the Empire!) (not sure if anyone could really take of Elswyr) again.

Can you imagine playing a high level member of the Thalmor or Dominion cadres and having to change your whole belief system as you explore and learn about all of these different people that you have always been told on the Isles are inferior and need to be subjugated? (well, with the exception of the humans - they do indeed need to be brought to heel). I think it would be epic. But then again, I'm pretty weird.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Well. They are an integral part of the TES Universe. Similar to Dragon Age or Dragon's Dogma, I think it would be great to play on their side as they try to take over from the Argonians, Bosmer or even the Dunmer (and possibly even the Empire!) (not sure if anyone could really take of Elswyr) again.

Can you imagine playing a high level member of the Thalmor or Dominion cadres and having to change your whole belief system as you explore and learn about all of these different people that you have always been told on the Isles are inferior and need to be subjugated? (well, with the exception of the humans - they do indeed need to be brought to heel). I think it would be epic. But then again, I'm pretty weird.

While they are very interesting, I feel they (2nd Aldmeri Dominion) are to firmly established as villains. Unlike the Imperial and Stormcloaks almost all the Thalmor you meet are simply not nice people. That being said you meet a relatively normal person among their SS (Yes, I know.) in Markarth. They are good as part of the world, but not as a focus. At least to me.

So overall I do agree that if we could get more details about them it would be interesting, but still The Empire prevails.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Well. They are an integral part of the TES Universe. Similar to Dragon Age or Dragon's Dogma, I think it would be great to play on their side as they try to take over from the Argonians, Bosmer or even the Dunmer (and possibly even the Empire!) (not sure if anyone could really take of Elswyr) again.

Can you imagine playing a high level member of the Thalmor or Dominion cadres and having to change your whole belief system as you explore and learn about all of these different people that you have always been told on the Isles are inferior and need to be subjugated? (well, with the exception of the humans - they do indeed need to be brought to heel). I think it would be epic. But then again, I'm pretty weird.

While they are very interesting, I feel they (2nd Aldmeri Dominion) are to firmly established as villains. Unlike the Imperial and Stormcloaks almost all the Thalmor you meet are simply not nice people. That being said you meet a relatively normal person among their SS (Yes, I know.) in Markarth. They are good as part of the world, but not as a focus. At least to me.

So overall I do agree that if we could get more details about them it would be interesting, but still The Empire prevails.

Oh! I absolutely agree. Not nice in general. But, then again, they aren't evil in their own eyes. Villains to the other folks maybe, but not to themselves. They are doing what they think is the right thing to do (think the Emperor in Star Wars).

I'm a big one for moral dilemmas, particularly when gaming. An example would be just last night while I'm playing Dragon Age II. Do I go where morally I should given my character creation or do I go where my heart tells me to go (again as the character). I know that either way the end result is the same, but, I actually was so conflicted, I couldn't make the decision for almost 20 minutes until my other 1/2 said. Just do what you think she (my character) would do if you were her in real life. My decision was made and I had to accept the consequences.

That's one thing I love and loathe about SR at the same time. In RP, my decisions have weight. In the game itself, it really doesn't matter since nothing you do has any real consequences. I wish they would have added that aspect.

 

[Rhew]

Well. They are an integral part of the TES Universe. Similar to Dragon Age or Dragon's Dogma, I think it would be great to play on their side as they try to take over from the Argonians, Bosmer or even the Dunmer (and possibly even the Empire!) (not sure if anyone could really take of Elswyr) again.

Can you imagine playing a high level member of the Thalmor or Dominion cadres and having to change your whole belief system as you explore and learn about all of these different people that you have always been told on the Isles are inferior and need to be subjugated? (well, with the exception of the humans - they do indeed need to be brought to heel). I think it would be epic. But then again, I'm pretty weird.

While they are very interesting, I feel they (2nd Aldmeri Dominion) are to firmly established as villains. Unlike the Imperial and Stormcloaks almost all the Thalmor you meet are simply not nice people. That being said you meet a relatively normal person among their SS (Yes, I know.) in Markarth. They are good as part of the world, but not as a focus. At least to me.

So overall I do agree that if we could get more details about them it would be interesting, but still The Empire prevails.

Oh! I absolutely agree. Not nice in general. But, then again, they aren't evil in their own eyes. Villains to the other folks maybe, but not to themselves. They are doing what they think is the right thing to do (think the Emperor in Star Wars).

I'm a big one for moral dilemmas, particularly when gaming. An example would be just last night while I'm playing Dragon Age II. Do I go where morally I should given my character creation or do I go where my heart tells me to go (again as the character). I know that either way the end result is the same, but, I actually was so conflicted, I couldn't make the decision for almost 20 minutes until my other 1/2 said. Just do what you think she (my character) would do if you were her in real life. My decision was made and I had to accept the consequences.

That's one thing I love and loathe about SR at the same time. In RP, my decisions have weight. In the game itself, it really doesn't matter since nothing you do has any real consequences. I wish they would have added that aspect.

I agree that the game makes it very difficult to like the Aldmeri Dominion but I don't think every elf in the Dominion are inherently evil. From the interactions the player has with Elenwen (you know besides finding out the thalmor tortures people in her home) she doesn't come off as evil to me. The same with Arcano. He doesn't seem evil just stupid.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

I agree that the game makes it very difficult to like the Aldmeri Dominion but I don't think every elf in the Dominion are inherently evil. From the interactions the player has with Elenwen (you know besides finding out the thalmor tortures people in her home) she doesn't come off as evil to me. The same with Arcano. He doesn't seem evil just stupid.

I hate being that guy, but since their robes do have a Gestapo vibe, people thought the same about Hitler.

Now that is the thing, they don't "seem" evil. Ancano (Just realized his name is almost Arcane with an O instead of E) was obsessed with getting more power for his group. Elenwen does put on a relatively polite front (And when Ulfric interacts with her she easily comes across more reasonable in a way) you get constant proof that it is in fact a front.

It can be tied to the idea that most serial killers seem normal. They aren't as mustache twirling evil as say the Dark Brotherhood that revels in being Evil, they are a more tempered evil. They are about dominating and eventually destroying.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I agree that the game makes it very difficult to like the Aldmeri Dominion but I don't think every elf in the Dominion are inherently evil. From the interactions the player has with Elenwen (you know besides finding out the thalmor tortures people in her home) she doesn't come off as evil to me. The same with Arcano. He doesn't seem evil just stupid.

I hate being that guy, but since their robes do have a Gestapo vibe, people thought the same about Hitler.

Now that is the thing, they don't "seem" evil. Ancano (Just realized his name is almost Arcane with an O instead of E) was obsessed with getting more power for his group. Elenwen does put on a relatively polite front (And when Ulfric interacts with her she easily comes across more reasonable in a way) you get constant proof that it is in fact a front.

It can be tied to the idea that most serial killers seem normal. They aren't as mustache twirling evil as say the Dark Brotherhood that revels in being Evil, they are a more tempered evil. They are about dominating and eventually destroying.

As I said in another post. I disagree that the Dark Brotherhood is "Evil". Killing another person, in, and of, itself is not evil. If that were true than acts committed during the war or in self defense would be evil as well. The Dark Brotherhood is a tool used by others, similar to a gun, to commit murder. Murder is the premeditated slaying of another individual. Therefore the individual who hired the DB would be the murderer. The gun is not the murderer.

I suppose it really depends on the moral views that you bring to the game. I avoid preconception when I enter in to the game environment and realize that most actions in RP games can be construed multiple ways.

As to the Thalmor being evil, I go back to my argument that perhaps they are evil in the view of some, but, to themselves they are not evil. The believe they are doing work that is best for Tamriel as a whole. The Nazi's, you mention, I am sure held a similar view. It makes the moral question of defining evil very murky. While I, personally, find the actions taken during that time period in our history and those taken by the Thalmor in the context of Tamriel reprehensible and I would consider them evil, but, I also have to consider the point of view of the other side.

I try not to take a narrow view on anything in this life as I realize that, whatever view I may have, there will always be an opposing one that I should take in to consideration.

But then again, I am very weird.

 

[Rhew]

I agree that the game makes it very difficult to like the Aldmeri Dominion but I don't think every elf in the Dominion are inherently evil. From the interactions the player has with Elenwen (you know besides finding out the thalmor tortures people in her home) she doesn't come off as evil to me. The same with Arcano. He doesn't seem evil just stupid.

I hate being that guy, but since their robes do have a Gestapo vibe, people thought the same about Hitler.

Now that is the thing, they don't "seem" evil. Ancano (Just realized his name is almost Arcane with an O instead of E) was obsessed with getting more power for his group. Elenwen does put on a relatively polite front (And when Ulfric interacts with her she easily comes across more reasonable in a way) you get constant proof that it is in fact a front.

It can be tied to the idea that most serial killers seem normal. They aren't as mustache twirling evil as say the Dark Brotherhood that revels in being Evil, they are a more tempered evil. They are about dominating and eventually destroying.

i understand what you are saying. And part of the lore of TES is that most of the Bosmers who are in Skyrim escaped from Valenwood during what the Thalmor was doing called "the cleansing" which sounds a lot like genocide. (And Bosmers are my favorite race) Which makes it really really hard to say that the Thalmor isn't evil. But I don't think that everyone in the Thalmor are bad people. It's also hard to think of them as evil when the only big thing that makes them "evil" in the eyes of the Nords is that they don't allow the worship of Talos which isn't seen as a real god to them. Unfair? Sure.

I also don't think DB are fully evil either. Everyone in the group has a story that isn't just "I like to kill because I like it." But it's really up to the opinion of the player. Everyone's moral codes are different. I've always been a neutral type of person so I do what I think is best (regardless of the law) but it also gets me in trouble from time to time (Real world I was a Navy sailor and thought majority of the rules we had were ridiculous and not needed. Needless to say I got in trouble a lot. But at the end of the day I did my job and did it well)

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Actually for most of the dark brotherhood their motivation can be simplified to "I like killing people."

And for Dulac. They are still people. Even if they allow themselves to be hired out. They have free will they chose that life. This means who uses them is evil, but doesn't clean the Dark Brotherhood of responsibility. In case you forgot when you get the torture chamber Delvin asks basically "Looking for something to do for fun?"

So let me tie this back in to the Thalmor/ Aldmeri Dominion. You don't have to be utterly evil to work for an evil group or cause.

"We should all fear evil men. But we should also fear the inaction of good men."

(Sent from work on my Cell Phone sorry it is light and not properly quoting. It is rushed.)

 

[DrunkenMage]

So let me tie this back in to the Thalmor/ Aldmeri Dominion. You don't have to be utterly evil to work for an evil group or cause.

I think the higher level Thalmor have brain washing, as there is mention to something called 'reeducation' if you make an error.

I wouldn't call all of them evil, there are normal people within their ranks.

Guard #1: "Did you see those robes march in this morning? Who're they with? More of the Emissary's treaty enforcers?"
Guard #2: "No. They're high mages, just in from Alinor. I guess Herself is finally getting worried about all the dragon attacks."
Guard #1: "Ah, good. I've been wondering how we were supposed to defend this place from a dragon."
Guard #2: "If a dragon does show up, maybe we'll get lucky and it will eat the mages first. Might give us enough time to kill it."
Guard #1: "Ha. I'd like to see those arrogant bastards taken down a notch. Always looking down their noses at us lowly footsloggers."

Shame I killed them, probably the only two Thalmor I liked. But, their deaths were near certain. Just walk into the room going:

"You don't even have a name tag. You've got no chance. Why don't you just fall down? Go on son."

 

[Rhew]

So let me tie this back in to the Thalmor/ Aldmeri Dominion. You don't have to be utterly evil to work for an evil group or cause.

I think the higher level Thalmor have brain washing, as there is mention to something called 'reeducation' if you make an error.

I wouldn't call all of them evil, there are normal people within their ranks.

Guard #1: "Did you see those robes march in this morning? Who're they with? More of the Emissary's treaty enforcers?"
Guard #2: "No. They're high mages, just in from Alinor. I guess Herself is finally getting worried about all the dragon attacks."
Guard #1: "Ah, good. I've been wondering how we were supposed to defend this place from a dragon."
Guard #2: "If a dragon does show up, maybe we'll get lucky and it will eat the mages first. Might give us enough time to kill it."
Guard #1: "Ha. I'd like to see those arrogant bastards taken down a notch. Always looking down their noses at us lowly footsloggers."

Shame I killed them, probably the only two Thalmor I liked. But, their deaths were near certain. Just walk into the room going:

"You don't even have a name tag. You've got no chance. Why don't you just fall down? Go on son."

Ha! Love the Austin Powers line.

where does that interaction take place? I love the Thalmor's mage outfits. I just wish there was a way we could interact with them more in the game that wasn't just "Die Thalmor!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ha! Love the Austin Powers line.

where does that interaction take place? I love the Thalmor's mage outfits. I just wish there was a way we could interact with them more in the game that wasn't just "Die Thalmor!"

Diplomatic Immunity. There are two guards when you leave the kitchen.

 

[Brofski]

I also don't think DB are fully evil either. Everyone in the group has a story that isn't just "I like to kill because I like it." But it's really up to the opinion of the player. Everyone's moral codes are different. I've always been a neutral type of person so I do what I think is best (regardless of the law) but it also gets me in trouble from time to time (Real world I was a Navy sailor and thought majority of the rules we had were ridiculous and not needed. Needless to say I got in trouble a lot. But at the end of the day I did my job and did it well)

Except you... You don't have a reason to kill Grelod. To kill someone in that shack. To keep on killing.

The DB are evil. It's not like a gun. If anything, they are more evil than the people who request the murder. They usually have a reason. The DB kill for status and gold. Not sure how that isn't completely and utterly evil. Even if they're not, Skyrim makes US be pure evil.

On subject, I think an Elven Empire would make a very good story. It's a tried and tested formula An unpopular, (probably will be) unfair and unjust ruler followed by brainwashed people. Some elements of those people would ultimately revolt. Not too different to how we have it in Skyrim now.

One may even argue that the current empire is a Thalmor empire but with a painted face. They pull the string with a lot of things.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Except you... You don't have a reason to kill Grelod. To kill someone in that shack. To keep on killing.

The DB are evil. It's not like a gun. If anything, they are more evil than the people who request the murder. They usually have a reason. The DB kill for status and gold. Not sure how that isn't completely and utterly evil. Even if they're not, Skyrim makes US be pure evil.

On subject, I think an Elven Empire would make a very good story. It's a tried and tested formula An unpopular, (probably will be) unfair and unjust ruler followed by brainwashed people. Some elements of those people would ultimately revolt. Not too different to how we have it in Skyrim now.

One may even argue that the current empire is a Thalmor empire but with a painted face. They pull the string with a lot of things.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. [emoji3]

 

[TheQahnaarin]

Maybe the head of the dominion has bad intentions, and I get the nazi metaphor but think about the common soldier/citizen's motives. Considering elven lifespans, their parents or grandparents probably remember Tiber and the Numidium and the complete slaughter of Summerset and valenwood and then having the empire shove the nine divines down their throat would obviously cause the thalmor to have the methods they do. I mean they're a proud race. That's why I wanna see the next game in Summerset or at least valenwood so we can see the other "good" side of the dominion. For the record tho, pretty much all my characters usually have back stories where their lives were shattered due to the thalmor or something like that

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I also don't think DB are fully evil either. Everyone in the group has a story that isn't just "I like to kill because I like it." But it's really up to the opinion of the player. Everyone's moral codes are different. I've always been a neutral type of person so I do what I think is best (regardless of the law) but it also gets me in trouble from time to time (Real world I was a Navy sailor and thought majority of the rules we had were ridiculous and not needed. Needless to say I got in trouble a lot. But at the end of the day I did my job and did it well)

Except you... You don't have a reason to kill Grelod. To kill someone in that shack. To keep on killing.

The DB are evil. It's not like a gun. If anything, they are more evil than the people who request the murder. They usually have a reason. The DB kill for status and gold. Not sure how that isn't completely and utterly evil. Even if they're not, Skyrim makes US be pure evil.

On subject, I think an Elven Empire would make a very good story. It's a tried and tested formula An unpopular, (probably will be) unfair and unjust ruler followed by brainwashed people. Some elements of those people would ultimately revolt. Not too different to how we have it in Skyrim now.

One may even argue that the current empire is a Thalmor empire but with a painted face. They pull the string with a lot of things.

Re: Greold - on a post long, long ago, someone pointed out that Greold the Kind was anything but. I actually took the time to listen to her dealing with the children and noticed the child level shackles. While murder may not be justified (I would have rather had her run out of town on a rail), the Arentino (??) kid really wasn't kidding.
As to the folks in the shack. It is made very clear to you by Astrid, that, if you do not kill one of them then you are dead. If you are higher level it isn't an issue, but, if you are lower level than it is. I will admit that, in SR it is a bit murky when it comes to Greold (after all, you did steal their contract which led you to this situation). I far preferred Oblivion where the DB just shows up as you're sleeping one night and most of the time I had no idea who it was I had murdered (after all, I had killed a lot of people). If I've already killed Greold, I figure this is the road I chose and morals be damned so I just kill all three of them.
What's evil about killing for pay? You're still the tool. It is your job after all. What about an executioner? A soldier? An agent for a government agency? Are they evil? They murder regularly and yet are not considered evil.
I'll admit I feel bad for killing some (Narfi being a good example), but, I am just the tool, after all. I am being paid to carry out an activity.
I know, I'm getting terribly philosophical here, but I just find the subject matter of defining "evil" and "good" fascinating.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

We could talk for hours about this i feel. So to answer you. I will assume killing a person is neither good nor evil.

Now let's look at the soldier. Killing is a part of but not all of his duties. Alright since most soldiers outside of war have other various functions they are not evil. If they decide to slaughter a village then they could be evil. Especially if it was against their orders.

The executioner. With this guy we have a Skyrim example in Athar (Solitude guy) he is purely doing his job, he also tortures. He shows no true outwardly sadistic tendencies. This means he might not be good but not necessarily evil and his "targets" are undoubtedly always criminals.

Now we get to assassins my favorites. Within the Dark Brotherhood we have people that revel in their kills (as a soldier can) sometimes kill crimminals ( like our executioner) but they also express glee at any kill. And often kill because they can (Festus said tepid b*tch! )

When you remove the moral justifications or consequences of killing someone (as tou must for fantasy games) you still see a difference between the three groups. The line the Dark Brotherhood crosses can best be described as sadism. They dont kill because it is a job. They kill because they liked it. Here are some quotes that describe my viewpoint as a Dark Brother.

"When you are good at something never do it for free." The Joker, the Dark Knight.

"Sure I hurt people. It is part of the job." Early.
"You took the job because you like to hurt people." River Tam, Firefly (Paraphrased)