Spoiler Would you consider Ulfric evil?

[DrunkenMage]

Imperials, because I'd forget they tried to cut my head off when a giant dragon pops down and says hello, then all I'd remember from that fateful day was a dragon popped down and burned the place to the ground then enlist into the Imperial Legion because that was one big mofo of a dragon and the Imperial's have a better payment plan for Soldiers of the Empire, money is where it is at. I ain't fighting dragons and attacking cities without my pay check. Stormcloaks can't afford it.

 

[Jeremius]

Imperials, because I'd forget they tried to cut my head off when a giant dragon pops down and says hello, then all I'd remember from that fateful day was a dragon popped down and burned the place to the ground then enlist into the Imperial Legion because that was one big mofo of a dragon and the Imperial's have a better payment plan for Soldiers of the Empire, money is where it is at. I ain't fighting dragons and attacking cities without my pay check. Stormcloaks can't afford it.

Is it that easy, not knowing whether or not the legion is like that captain and the stormcloaks are the good guys, or not knowing anything about the game. All-in-all, this post sounds like Meta-gaming

 

[Raijin]

I am going to throw a hypothetical scenario at yo all. For this activity, I want you all to forget what you learned, put yourself inside your character's shoes. Knowing nothing of what is going on except that the one Imperial officer wants to cut your head off, which side you choose?

I go by a point system. You treat me with respect and you are rewarded by points. You treat me wrong you go into the negative. Had the story been different, and the imperials treated me with respect, and given me a chance to speak out instead of just executing me for the fun of it I would've sided with them in the heart beat. I want to give the imperials and the empire a chance, really. But they went so far below the negative that they've lost my support.

Perhaps I'm not a very good RPler since I leak my RL feelings into the game. I'm a human rights activist in the real world, and what the empire/Imperials did at the very beginning of the game is the very same thing that I fight against in the real world. This is why I support the Stormcloaks.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well considering you're a prisoner so you did something wrong. What are they honestly going to do? "Are you a rebel?" and you're all "Nah" and they go "Alright off you go" You were caught with Ulfric Stormcloak as if they're going to believe a word you bloody say, it's like being caught in a cave with members of al qaeda and being all "Oh yeah I'm not with them, we're just sharing the same cave because it's more cost effective"

In times of war, innocents are sometimes killed, but if you play through the Imperial beginning you Get Hadvar saying "Stormcloaks, maybe we can reason with them" Yeah one person said you should die, if you judge an entire population because of a single person then that isn't right. Besides the General didn't even realise it, he was busy looking at Ulfric, he probably assumed you were on the list because he has people lower in rank to handle those matters. You get bad people on both sides, but I would of done what she did in all honesty, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, crap happens.

People always use that "The Empire tried to cut off my head" a Captain tried to have you killed and it is a big deal, almost everything in Skyrim tries to kill you.

 

[Jeremius]

Well considering you're a prisoner so you did something wrong. What are they honestly going to do? "Are you a rebel?" and you're all "Nah" and they go "Alright off you go" You were caught with Ulfric Stormcloak as if they're going to believe a word you bloody say, it's like being caught in a cave with members of al qaeda and being all "Oh yeah I'm not with them, we're just sharing the same cave because it's more cost effective"

In times of war, innocents are sometimes killed, but if you play through the Imperial beginning you Get Hadvar saying "Stormcloaks, maybe we can reason with them" Yeah one person said you should die, if you judge an entire population because of a single person then that isn't right. Besides the General didn't even realise it, he was busy looking at Ulfric, he probably assumed you were on the list because he has people lower in rank to handle those matters. You get bad people on both sides, but I would of done what she did in all honesty, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, crap happens.

People always use that "The Empire tried to cut off my head" a Captain tried to have you killed and it is a big deal, almost everything in Skyrim tries to kill you.

Can't judge them all by Hadvar either, so there is no reason for you not to think they are like that captain.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Can't judge them all by Hadvar either, so there is no reason for you not to think they are like that captain.

I judge them by how I meet them during the course of the game, Stormcloaks only seem to really befriend a Nord character anything else and well...

 

[Janus3003]

I am going to throw a hypothetical scenario at yo all. For this activity, I want you all to forget what you learned, put yourself inside your character's shoes. Knowing nothing of what is going on except that the one Imperial officer wants to cut your head off, which side you choose?

Isn't that what a lot of Stormcloak supporters do HEYO!!!

 

[DrunkenMage]

Seems like Thalmor mischief to me.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Only youtube video that had the one scene I wanted.

This is what Ulfric was like after he killed the High King, instead of "Get off the streets" he was "OPEN THE GATE"

 

[CaptMorgan72]

No, I don't consider Ulfric evil. He believes that what he is doing is for the good of Skyrim. He doesn't know that he is being used as a tool by the Thalmor. So his intentions are noble, but he is on the wrong side of the fight, unknowingly. That is why I always give him an honorable death and always make sure to visit him in Sovngarde. He will understand all of this when he goes there.

 

[Raijin]

Only youtube video that had the one scene I wanted.

This is what Ulfric was like after he killed the High King, instead of "Get off the streets" he was "OPEN THE GATE"

Dude old people must be driving on the road again!

 

[Jeremius]

Isn't that what a lot of Stormcloak supporters do HEYO!!!

you forgot the 'put yourself in your character's shoes' part. basically the scenario is that you (As your character) enter Skyrim and are sent to the chopping block, despite Hadvar's protests. you have no clue where the order came from, was it just that one captain, or was it her superior, the general? Was the dragon there because of the legion, the stormcloaks, or for no other reason? without meta-gaming, you cannot answer these questions so you just have to pick. this can be just for the start if you wish, and another choice as you go along.

 

[DrunkenMage]

you forgot the 'put yourself in your character's shoes' part. basically the scenario is that you (As your character) enter Skyrim and are sent to the chopping block, despite Hadvar's protests. you have no clue where the order came from, was it just that one captain, or was it her superior, the general? Was the dragon there because of the legion, the stormcloaks, or for no other reason? without meta-gaming, you cannot answer these questions so you just have to pick. this can be just for the start if you wish, and another choice as you go along.

My thoughts during that opening when a dragon pops down wouldn't be "Is the legion bad for skyrim" It'd be "SWEET JESUS EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF" and run away screaming.

 

[Jeremius]

My thoughts during that opening when a dragon pops down wouldn't be "Is the legion bad for skyrim" It'd be "SWEET JESUS EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF" and run away screaming.

then let me rephrase: going with the scenario, who would you follow-Ralof or Hadvar (still using the same scenario)

 

[Janus3003]

then let me rephrase: going with the scenario, who would you follow-Ralof or Hadvar (still using the same scenario)

Whoever I saw first, which is how I did it when I first played. I would't be thinking straight at that moment.

 

[Raijin]

My thoughts during that opening when a dragon pops down wouldn't be "Is the legion bad for skyrim" It'd be "SWEET JESUS EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF" and run away screaming.

Only milk drinkers would run away. Embrace yourself. Get naked and show Alduin who's the true boss of Skyrim, and the most dominating. You do realize that if you show fear it will only make things worst for you as the predator (Alduin) can smell your fears.

 

[DrunkenMage]

then let me rephrase: going with the scenario, who would you follow-Ralof or Hadvar (still using the same scenario)

Hadvar.
Ralof ditched me during the most dangerous part of running past a dragon.

I use to support the Stormcloaks, hated the Empire because of how they tried to kill me and stuff about them surrendering.

But what turned me off being a Stormcloak? was how they treated non nords in windhelm, how they talked about Orcs and their strongholds saying they are an affront to their people, I liked the Orcs they welcomed me as a Brother because I helped one of them and I'd fight beside an orc anyday. They attacked Whiterun the Jarl of Whiterun was trying to keep out of the Civil War he was a Jarl more concerned with his people defending them against dragons, he was honourable and I respected him and his motives, but it was as Galmar Stone-Fist said it "If he's not with us, he's against us" Whiterun was attacked it's Jarl removed because he was a Jarl who cared about his people more than what Ulfric was doing. Then when speaking to the people of Whiterun people I liked, the Redguard at the forge was losing business because she wasn't a Nord, the alchemy shop owned by an Imperial who has lived there for 10-20 years gets no business because she isn't a nord, they say she'd poison them so she'll have to close.

Then when I decided I wouldn't join the Civil War got to season unending trying to make a peace, Ulfric who claims to be fighting for Skyrim and her people seemed more interesting in trying to gain land than help those he thinks he should rule, then when that is done he demands more bloody land. But what really annoyed me about him was in the start of that quest where I tell him the Graybeards are doing a peace conference as a Nord who studied with the Graybeards he should go easily but he gets childish "I'll only go if Tullius is going" Tullius isn't even a Nord and he went easily he should of been the one who showed more resistance because he doesn't believe in the nord way of things.

 

[Jeremius]

Hadvar.
Ralof ditched me during the most dangerous part of running past a dragon.

I use to support the Stormcloaks, hated the Empire because of how they tried to kill me and stuff about them surrendering.

But what turned me off being a Stormcloak? was how they treated non nords in windhelm, how they talked about Orcs and their strongholds saying they are an affront to their people, I liked the Orcs they welcomed me as a Brother because I helped one of them and I'd fight beside an orc anyday. They attacked Whiterun the Jarl of Whiterun was trying to keep out of the Civil War he was a Jarl more concerned with his people defending them against dragons, he was honourable and I respected him and his motives, but it was as Galmar Stone-Fist said it "If he's not with us, he's against us" Whiterun was attacked it's Jarl removed because he was a Jarl who cared about his people more than what Ulfric was doing. Then when speaking to the people of Whiterun people I liked, the Redguard at the forge was losing business because she wasn't a Nord, the alchemy shop owned by an Imperial who has lived there for 10-20 years gets no business because she isn't a nord, they say she'd poison them so she'll have to close.

Then when I decided I wouldn't join the Civil War got to season unending trying to make a peace, Ulfric who claims to be fighting for Skyrim and her people seemed more interesting in trying to gain land than help those he thinks he should rule, then when that is done he demands more bloody land. But what really annoyed me about him was in the start of that quest where I tell him the Graybeards are doing a peace conference as a Nord who studied with the Graybeards he should go easily but he gets childish "I'll only go if Tullius is going" Tullius isn't even a Nord and he went easily he should of been the one who showed more resistance because he doesn't believe in the nord way of things.

In the scenario, you KNOW NOTHING. as in you have no clue how they treat non-Nords in Windhelm, or about the greybeards or anything, try again.

 

[DrunkenMage]

In the scenario, you KNOW NOTHING. as in you have no clue how they treat non-Nords in Windhelm, or about the greybeards or anything, try again.

I claim the Geneva Convention.

I will only now offer my Name, Rank and Imperial Regimental Number.

 

[Dagmar]

actually they do, if the book was influenced by someone who hated Ulfric, there would be bias in the book.

Again you have no basis for this claim. The book precedes the Stormcloak rebellion. Any animosity towards Ulfric in the text is based on what he did in Markarth and nothing else. The book also credits Ulfric for retaking Markarth without any assistance from the Imperial Legion. If you disclaim the veracity of a book based on the mer fact that it alleges that Ulfric executed non-combatants you're reduced to the ridiculous position of refusing to believe any book that presents any person in a bad light as "biased" against that person.

In the real world we could go out and question people and investigate on our own to independently verify things but that's not how RPG video games work so constructing arguments based on the absence of NPC verification is a fatally flawed approach that lacks merit. There would be a litany of events in the Elder Scrolls universe that we could dismiss from its lore based on nothing but sheer speculation if that were the case, but it's not and we don't. We take lore content at face value unless there's other lore content that contradicts or makes it otherwise confusing. It does happen and there are lore articles at UESP that note the contradictions and cite the sources, but citing the absence of additional supporting content is never one of them because the absurdity of the position is recognized and dismissed out of hand. If you and Raijin want to pretend that relying on the logical fallacy of an appeal to ignorance is valid support for your premise that's you're prerogative but all you're really doing then is invalidating your position.