Vampire hunter or Vampire?

[LotusEater]

If he is such a monster, that can only go out and try to destroy or dominate mortals... Wouldn't finding personal peace mean more world peace?

His spirit guide says: NO

 

[LotusEater]

Without Alduin I just don't see Paarthy as the same level of threat material. Sure he could rally the dragons, but the game has shown that only Alduin can bring them back from the dead thus far. And the Ebony Warrior, for all intents and purposes, is a rival of the dragonborn and thus rivals Paarthy. It would be a bloody war, because they're dragons, but Paarthy is losing his window. The second great war is the only opportunity I can see for him.

And a certain amount of multiple factors is required to win wars. I'm well aware of that. However it certainly helps, and doesn't detract from my point. Unless he makes a move during the Second Great War, he has nothing to gain by waiting. Since we are making all these great war references, the dragons closely resemble the Nazi dogma of quality over quantity, while the humans resemble more the dogma of industrial capacity and quantity over quality.

That's a whole lot of assumptions there. Just saying. If this were the really real I would not trust the fate of mankind to any of the assumptions you presented. You keep bringing the Ebony Warrior into it like he is just gonna suddenly decide to be a dragonslayer even though there is no indication whatsoever that this is the case.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Had some fun on my recent Dawnguard sided playthrough. I attacked Harkon with a fireball just as he banished me (As the screen is turning black) and when I appeared back at the boat they were all outside with me (Including Harkon in VL form). After a bit of spell slinging and potion drinking I managed to kill two or three of them and the other major Vampires were on their knees when I decided to flee.

Hopping on the boat to the jetty near Northwatch they had followed me. Out of potions and low on magic, there I was running like a bat out of hell as ice spikes are flying over my head and a very angry Vampire Clan in hot pursuit.

A mighty chase across Skyrim began as I started to regret my actions of getting a tad bit angry at being called prey by some crazy bastard, I nearly died several times with their lucky shots in the back. Though things turned in my favor and I finally managed to lose them in the wilds of Skyrim with my tactical retreat for higher ground aka I ran like a bitch jumping up cliffs and down mountains.

All in all I bet they're not likely to forget me in a hurry. Though I'm sure their hatred will grow once they stumble back to their castle, weary, hungry and sunburnt... Only to find out I took all their fine silverware and potions of blood.

Never insult a wizard!

 

[DrunkenMage]

If he is such a monster, that can only go out and try to destroy or dominate mortals... Wouldn't finding personal peace mean more world peace?

The Greybeards know Paarthunax exists, he is their "grandmaster" as the shining example of the Way of the Voice. Which is of peace. It sounds like because he is pursuing peace in the way he recognizes as the best way opposed to what you want him to be which is the monster he was before.

The Way of the Voice isn't solely about peace, the Greybeards are not pacifists. They worship Kyne a favored God for warriors, and are in fact allowed to use the Thu'um in violence for what they deem as "in times of true need".

Technically speaking it isn't allowed to be broken for the glories of mankind. Paarthurnax isn't a man, and what is considered a true need would be a matter of perspective and debate for philosophers.

There is grey in many things within TES.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Without Alduin I just don't see Paarthy as the same level of threat material. Sure he could rally the dragons, but the game has shown that only Alduin can bring them back from the dead thus far. And the Ebony Warrior, for all intents and purposes, is a rival of the dragonborn and thus rivals Paarthy. It would be a bloody war, because they're dragons, but Paarthy is losing his window. The second great war is the only opportunity I can see for him.

And a certain amount of multiple factors is required to win wars. I'm well aware of that. However it certainly helps, and doesn't detract from my point. Unless he makes a move during the Second Great War, he has nothing to gain by waiting. Since we are making all these great war references, the dragons closely resemble the Nazi dogma of quality over quantity, while the humans resemble more the dogma of industrial capacity and quantity over quality.

That's a whole lot of assumptions there. Just saying. If this were the really real I would not trust the fate of mankind to any of the assumptions you presented. You keep bringing the Ebony Warrior into it like he is just gonna suddenly decide to be a dragonslayer even though there is no indication whatsoever that this is the case.

No more so than you assuming that he is going to be evil.

 

[LotusEater]

Without Alduin I just don't see Paarthy as the same level of threat material. Sure he could rally the dragons, but the game has shown that only Alduin can bring them back from the dead thus far. And the Ebony Warrior, for all intents and purposes, is a rival of the dragonborn and thus rivals Paarthy. It would be a bloody war, because they're dragons, but Paarthy is losing his window. The second great war is the only opportunity I can see for him.

And a certain amount of multiple factors is required to win wars. I'm well aware of that. However it certainly helps, and doesn't detract from my point. Unless he makes a move during the Second Great War, he has nothing to gain by waiting. Since we are making all these great war references, the dragons closely resemble the Nazi dogma of quality over quantity, while the humans resemble more the dogma of industrial capacity and quantity over quality.

That's a whole lot of assumptions there. Just saying. If this were the really real I would not trust the fate of mankind to any of the assumptions you presented. You keep bringing the Ebony Warrior into it like he is just gonna suddenly decide to be a dragonslayer even though there is no indication whatsoever that this is the case.

No more so than you assuming that he is going to be evil.

Not true. In fact your assumption that somehow technology is going to pass up Paarth is completely flawed since all indications in Skyrim are that since the Dwemer have disappeared, technonlogy has taken a drastic step back. What is currently taking place in Skyrim to make you believe this trend will reverse? I mean, look at that janky rig that traps the dragon at Dragonreach. The Dwemer would laugh at such primitive measures.

As far as assuming he's evil... false again. He's proven he's evil by his actions in the past. Highly, highly evil given his crimes against humanity. He's not good now, just self serving and scared pl***less that his brother is about to return and settle the score, which I suppose is less evil (somewhat) big picture however could morph into full blown, dominating evil at any moment. If he's proven nothing else, he's proven that he will flip flop to save his own scales. Guess I wouldn't be willing to wait around until what he perceives to be the better bet to arrive on the scene. Like I always say: Keep you friends close and keep your enemies closer... unless they are proven war criminals in which case exterminate. War criminals only stop being war criminals when they don't have a current gig and Paarth is a war criminal. Sorry.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

That's a whole lot of assumptions there. Just saying. If this were the really real I would not trust the fate of mankind to any of the assumptions you presented. You keep bringing the Ebony Warrior into it like he is just gonna suddenly decide to be a dragonslayer even though there is no indication whatsoever that this is the case.

No more so than you assuming that he is going to be evil.

Not true. In fact your assumption that somehow technology is going to pass up Paarth is completely flawed since all indications in Skyrim are that since the Dwemer have disappeared, technonlogy has taken a drastic step back. What is currently taking place in Skyrim to make you believe this trend will reverse? I mean, look at that janky rig that traps the dragon at Dragonreach. The Dwemer would laugh at such primitive measures.

As far as assuming he's evil... false again. He's proven he's evil by his actions in the past. Highly, highly evil given his crimes against humanity. He's not good now, just self serving and scared pl***less that his brother is about to return and settle the score, which I suppose is less evil (somewhat) big picture however could morph into full blown, dominating evil at any moment. If he's proven nothing else, he's proven that he will flip flop to save his own scales. Guess I wouldn't be willing to wait around until what he perceives to be the better bet to arrive on the scene. Like I always say: Keep you friends close and keep your enemies closer... unless they are proven war criminals in which case exterminate. War criminals only stop being war criminals when they don't have a current gig and Paarth is a war criminal. Sorry.

First of all I didn't say that it would pass him up, I just said that it would improve which makes his overall position weaker. And it's not just technology, it's mortal civilization in general. And the dwarves never shared their tech, so it was never a factor to begin with. Not to mention that magic is only going to get stronger. Just look at crossbows.

And I never disputed he was evil in the past, but he hasn't given any indication that he hasn't reformed. Just look at Spier from the Numenburg Trials.

He did more than flop. The dragons were WINNING THE WAR. Without him and by extension, without Dragonrend, THERE WOULDN'T BE a human civilization on Tamriel.

 

[LotusEater]

No more so than you assuming that he is going to be evil.

Not true. In fact your assumption that somehow technology is going to pass up Paarth is completely flawed since all indications in Skyrim are that since the Dwemer have disappeared, technonlogy has taken a drastic step back. What is currently taking place in Skyrim to make you believe this trend will reverse? I mean, look at that janky rig that traps the dragon at Dragonreach. The Dwemer would laugh at such primitive measures.

As far as assuming he's evil... false again. He's proven he's evil by his actions in the past. Highly, highly evil given his crimes against humanity. He's not good now, just self serving and scared pl***less that his brother is about to return and settle the score, which I suppose is less evil (somewhat) big picture however could morph into full blown, dominating evil at any moment. If he's proven nothing else, he's proven that he will flip flop to save his own scales. Guess I wouldn't be willing to wait around until what he perceives to be the better bet to arrive on the scene. Like I always say: Keep you friends close and keep your enemies closer... unless they are proven war criminals in which case exterminate. War criminals only stop being war criminals when they don't have a current gig and Paarth is a war criminal. Sorry.

First of all I didn't say that it would pass him up, I just said that it would improve which makes his overall position weaker. And it's not just technology, it's mortal civilization in general. And the dwarves never shared their tech, so it was never a factor to begin with. Not to mention that magic is only going to get stronger. Just look at crossbows.

And I never disputed he was evil in the past, but he hasn't given any indication that he hasn't reformed. Just look at Spier from the Numenburg Trials.

He did more than flop. The dragons were WINNING THE WAR. Without him and by extension, without Dragonrend, THERE WOULDN'T BE a human civilization on Tamriel.

Ya. We could dicker back and forth all day but the bottom line is Paarth is one of the most compelling NPC's I've ever encountered in a game. I want to like him but I just can't trust him.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Not true. In fact your assumption that somehow technology is going to pass up Paarth is completely flawed since all indications in Skyrim are that since the Dwemer have disappeared, technonlogy has taken a drastic step back. What is currently taking place in Skyrim to make you believe this trend will reverse? I mean, look at that janky rig that traps the dragon at Dragonreach. The Dwemer would laugh at such primitive measures.

As far as assuming he's evil... false again. He's proven he's evil by his actions in the past. Highly, highly evil given his crimes against humanity. He's not good now, just self serving and scared pl***less that his brother is about to return and settle the score, which I suppose is less evil (somewhat) big picture however could morph into full blown, dominating evil at any moment. If he's proven nothing else, he's proven that he will flip flop to save his own scales. Guess I wouldn't be willing to wait around until what he perceives to be the better bet to arrive on the scene. Like I always say: Keep you friends close and keep your enemies closer... unless they are proven war criminals in which case exterminate. War criminals only stop being war criminals when they don't have a current gig and Paarth is a war criminal. Sorry.

First of all I didn't say that it would pass him up, I just said that it would improve which makes his overall position weaker. And it's not just technology, it's mortal civilization in general. And the dwarves never shared their tech, so it was never a factor to begin with. Not to mention that magic is only going to get stronger. Just look at crossbows.

And I never disputed he was evil in the past, but he hasn't given any indication that he hasn't reformed. Just look at Spier from the Numenburg Trials.

He did more than flop. The dragons were WINNING THE WAR. Without him and by extension, without Dragonrend, THERE WOULDN'T BE a human civilization on Tamriel.

Ya. We could dicker back and forth all day but the bottom line is Paarth is one of the most compelling NPC's I've ever encountered in a game. I want to like him but I just can't trust him.

I understand completely. The most compelling point for me however is that the dragons would have won the war if not for him, which even if he was only trying to usurp his brother, is not a small gesture.

 

[LotusEater]

First of all I didn't say that it would pass him up, I just said that it would improve which makes his overall position weaker. And it's not just technology, it's mortal civilization in general. And the dwarves never shared their tech, so it was never a factor to begin with. Not to mention that magic is only going to get stronger. Just look at crossbows.

And I never disputed he was evil in the past, but he hasn't given any indication that he hasn't reformed. Just look at Spier from the Numenburg Trials.

He did more than flop. The dragons were WINNING THE WAR. Without him and by extension, without Dragonrend, THERE WOULDN'T BE a human civilization on Tamriel.

Ya. We could dicker back and forth all day but the bottom line is Paarth is one of the most compelling NPC's I've ever encountered in a game. I want to like him but I just can't trust him.

I understand completely. The most compelling point for me however is that the dragons would have won the war if not for him, which even if he was only trying to usurp his brother, is not a small gesture.

From what I understand, the lore is a little hazy. He definitely committed atrocities. But whether he switched up on his own accord or not is unclear iirc. Like he may have been controlled by Kyne... I think.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Hey I hate to interrupt the measuring competition,

But look at the thread name, and put it in a proper place, this is about vampires or Dawnguard.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Hey I hate to interrupt the measuring competition,

But look at the thread name, and put it in a proper place, this is about vampires or Dawnguard.

Measuring? And if a dragon can rehabilitate a vampire can, which goes back to his initial point about vampires, which goes back to the main purpose of the thread. Even though I am not optimistic enough to believe a vampire can logically rehabilitate and generally agree with Lotus on most all of his points.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

You aren't mentioning vampires at all until just now, talk about vampires and dawnguard specifically. Mentioning the sympathetic vampire in Skyrim, instead of droning on about a possible sympathetic dragon would be more in line.

Since Mage mentioned Grey you could also work around that. Hell you could even talk about the moral greyness of the Dawnguard or Vigilants. (resident vampire hunters in this case)

Basically the dragon points is used and dried up. Find the original dragon thread if you wish to continue please.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

While we may have been discussing Paarthy specifically the overarching point of the debate still applied to vampires, and I will defend the debate as justified.

We could but obviously that didn't interest us.

Yes, NOW that we have more or less concluded our debate and come to terms with each other's opinions it has dried up. Telling us to stop now is redundant.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hell you could even talk about the moral greyness of the Dawnguard or Vigilants

The Vigil of Stendarr I find to be quite interesting, since they oppress Daedric religion and hunt down worshippers much like the Thalmor Justiciars do to those who believe in Talos. Yet many Nords are part of the Vigil and considering the Vigil has operated in Skyrim for maybe two hundred years no one really cared.

Rather ironic that there is a Civil War and cries of oppression from residents in Skyrim, when many have allowed and taken part in religious oppression of Daedric pantheons.

Dawnguard I quite like, but their methods are also quite extreme. Bethesda has been getting pretty good with the greyness of factions and certain NPCs.

 

[Wildroses]

I marked the above statement agree because I really hate the quest Hunting the Monster. Reading that sweet letter the vampire writes their human friend they cared about enough to not hurt makes me feel like the monster. If it wasn't for the whole eating people and Harkon being a terrible father I may well have joined the vampires because Isran is really a dick.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. I love opposing factions with shades of grey.

 

[LotusEater]

You aren't mentioning vampires at all until just now, talk about vampires and dawnguard specifically. Mentioning the sympathetic vampire in Skyrim, instead of droning on about a possible sympathetic dragon would be more in line.

Since Mage mentioned Grey you could also work around that. Hell you could even talk about the moral greyness of the Dawnguard or Vigilants. (resident vampire hunters in this case)

Basically the dragon points is used and dried up. Find the original dragon thread if you wish to continue please.

How about you don't worry about policing other peoples threads? The OP is a big boy, he can object to content if he feels it's necessary. Worry about your own threads.

 

[Hala]

Not joining in the morality debate, but here's why I will probably side with the Volkihar every time:

Spoiler

I get the Rings of Power! The Ring of the Erudite is pretty spiffy bling that goes nicely with my Archmage Poncho.

Ronthil is a precious beautiful sweetroll too good for this world too pure and he's the only one who has the Heal Undead Spell Tome.

I can still make that one Dawnguard chick and that one Dawnguard monk to sell me their ~exclusive~ Dawnguard spells like calm the f down for a minute look at these shiny coins before I show them my equally shiny blade. I can still make that one Dawnguard dude to sell me a troll the same way.

When I defeated Lord Harkon, this dude Garan says wow you da man (or elf or beast). Then acknowledges me as boss and says *I* own the castle now whereas if you side with the Dawnguard, you still have to answer to Isran (who's a dick).

Isran is a dick.


The only cons for me (just two):
I have to haul these scrolls with me til the day I die and that wont happen bec I live forever now.
And the saddest most devastating thing: my children will never get to have a husky I can decorate their rooms with husky corpses and I guess they can play with them for a coupla minutes when I use the staff...

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Aye mage definitely a good development of their writing.

Isran and his extremism is fascinating to me personally. Because of his backstory they contrast his hate with the Troll Trainer. Same tragedy different response.

I mean I don't mind a fire and brimstone viewpoint. It adds character around what one can argue is a one dimensional personality trait.

Makes him feel similar to a lot of people.

 

[-The Ice Queen-]

It's usually a difficult choice for me, as with most decisions in Skyrim.

For the Dawnguard, the Dwemer crossbows are completely boss, and I love the huskies (I really hate killing them.) The location of the Fort is beautiful and the armored trolls are useful. However, I *personally* find a lot of the Dawnguard members rather boring/annoying. It's not that they're poorly written characters, it's just they don't interest me. I understand Isran's motivations and his hatred and discrimination for vampires, but it seems to go to the extremes.

As for the Volkihar, things seem to be a bit more interesting for me. I love the lore that goes with this particular clan, and it seems far to cool to wipe out. A lot of the amulets and spells are very useful, and useful for Serana. Of course, it is rather awesome to *spoilers* head the castle once Harkin is eliminated. Depending on your character, the Volkihar vampires will thrive pretty darn well and won't make the denizens of Skyrim completely angry. Hopefully.

Okay, now I'm feeling biased. Sorry. But if I had to choose: both. It needs to be seen from both sides, I'd say, for your own preference.